ID - 4 University of Idaho Students Murdered - Moscow # 25

[gliving]

Can someone link me to the date KG arrived back in Moscow? Was it Thursday Nov 10? TIA

 

[VaBorn]

3:01 “time of report” to Taylor / Band Field, and a officer body-cam has a time stamp of earlier, 2:54. This appears to indicate it’s a vicinity location and not exact. No block is even given. The officer on Band Field almost indicates he wasn’t the responding officer for the call, although I could be wrong. I’m still suspicious of the outgoing call to 911 (or non-emergency) since it likely tells us exactly what prompted the phone call. Was it a suspicious vehicle or person? Was it a credible tip? Did patrol officers (unfortunately) tie up this log to the kids on Band Field, whilst something was going on at 1122?

Oh wouldn’t that be devastating, if they responded to the wrong disturbance. Though understandable, I’m gonna pray that’s not the situation.

 

[VaBorn]

It's really creepy to follow the Google street view around and realize how often you can see that house from various vantage points.

I’ve been really bothered by the positioning of the house in relation to its surroundings. It almost looks like a “jewel box” sitting up on display. Especially with blinds open & lights on. I imagine I would have felt “on display” in it. Perhaps hindsight influences my impression, but I don’t really question how this house could have easily been targeted.

 

[debirlfan]

See my bolded part of the quote above. BBM (red for "own")


If you know of or own a vehicle matching this description, or know of anyone who may have been driving this vehicle on the days preceding or the day of the murders, please forward that information to the Tip Line.

That was tacked on at the end. Everything else referenced driver and occupants. My guess is the car was stolen, but police don't want to give that away.

Maybe, but then why wouldn't they know what the license plate is? They say it's 'unknown'.

They also say: "If you know of or own a vehicle matching this description..." in the press release you've linked to.

BBM

If the car was stolen, the plate that was on the car might very well not have been the plate that belonged on the car.

 

[Ram2751]

Father of murdered Idaho student retains lawyer and may sue police
Father of murdered Idaho student retains lawyer and may sue police

0-0

Father wants more information released. Defense will make plans to have this trial moved away from Moscow. Amount of information released can impact the time it will take to form an inpartial jury.

 

[Balthazar]

This is not as easy as switching license plates. VIN numbers exist in multiple areas on a vehicle from doors to the actual frame of the car and it's almost impossible to get them all.

While not verified by the admins (so take it with whatever gain of salt you wish), I do a fair amount of VIN verifications for abandoned vehicles for a PD here in Idaho so it's not unusual to have to crawl under a car to get that information.

One of the reasons 2011 and 2016 Hyundai Elantras are popular with car thieves (besides being easy to start without a key) is because of the VIN locations which are quite easy to locate and change. You wouldn't even need to get underneath the vehicle.

 

[NickoD]

What‘s everyone’s thoughts?

If this car is directly related to the murders, was it stolen or borrowed to commit this specific murder? For another reason like house robberies and murder ended up being committed?
Revenge, rejection murders? Obsession with one or more of house occupants, ends in murder and cover up? Envy rage murders, occupants targeted but not known to killer/s?

There is a murderer, and an accomplice who didn’t enter the house? There is more than one killer who committed the murders?

Did the murderer get a ride off someone who hasn’t come forward for reasons unknown? They weren’t aware of what their passenger had done? They don’t believe this person could be the killer so didn’t contact LE they were in the area?

This car ends up not being related to the murders?

In my opinion, it's a witness they are trying to locate. Most of the time a driver, while aware of items around them, might not be aware of their importance. So I think the cops a) know that the driver was in the area to witness something they need corroborated by testimony but b) the driver is not aware of its importance to call in themselves.

MOO

 

[diggndeeperstill]

Are all these people being charged with something? Is it a crime to be unconscious or very drunk? I don't think it is, if one isn't driving or operating machinery or being disorderly. If it's not a crime, then there would be no Clery Act requirement for the University to put this information up in their crime tallies.

I posted a link to the Clery Act page of U of I a couple of days ago, but one can find it on their own by going to the U of I Webpage, and clicking on the "About" tab, IIRC and it's there somewhere. I'll try and find it again when I have a chance.

No, it isn't a crime to be unconscious. However, it is a crime to be drinking underage. And it is not allowed to be drinking on campus. I am familiar with the Clery Act. My real point in posting the incident above is to show that possibly students are still going about the risky behavior of drinking to unconsciousness even in the midst of the fear that is gripping many in the city. And, is that a result of lax handling of alcohol-related incidents?

Alcohol & Other Drugs Policy - Conduct | University of Idaho

The student code of conduct is a helpful resource for understanding U of I's position on alcohol abuse, underage use, and the requirements imposed by the State.

www.uidaho.edu

In this case, this was at Phi Delt location and they are already on disciplinary probation for health and safety violations.

Community Accountability - Greek Life | University of Idaho

There are many forms of accountability through multiple reporting structures. Each entity is unique and adjudicates a specific set of policies.

www.uidaho.edu

I just wonder if these get reported or not to the campus when the Moscow PD writes "no report" on the call. You can find the alcohol violations here under the current safety and security report.

Office of Public Safety and Security

Learn about Public Safety and Security in case of an emergency at the University of Idaho.

www.uidaho.edu

Drinking is not allowed on campus, and since fraternities and sororities are held to standards with alcohol, it would be interesting to know what (if anything) happens with the number of "unconscious" calls to Moscow PD that happen at UofI.

From what I researched, I found 11 unconscious calls to what I believe are on campus or greek housing from July 27-22 to 11-29-22. That does not include the one I listed above from December at Phi Delt. Of those 11, 2 were reported and 9 were "no reports". So, my question would be. Who is notified of these? Is the University? It would certainly seem not because statistically speaking there was only 1 report for disciplinary action for an alcohol violation in 2021. Clery results are not available for 2022 obviously.

11-29-22
Moscow Police Department Daily Activity Log: Tuesday, November 29, 2022
22-M10379 Unconscious Person
Incident Address: TAYLOR AVE & DEAKIN AVE
MOSCOW ID 83843
Disposition:
Time Reported: 00:52
Cad Comments:
Male laying on the sidewalk in the snow appears unconscious. Law, Fire, and EMS responded. Patient transported to Gritman. No report.

11-11-22
Moscow Police Department Daily Activity Log: Friday, November 11, 2022
22-M09852 Unconscious Person
Incident Address: DEAKIN AVE; Pi Kappa Phi; outside
MOSCOW ID 83843
Disposition:
Time Reported: 19:43
Cad Comments:
EMS, Fire, and Law responded to an unconscious subject. Patient transported to PRH. No report.

11-6-22
Moscow Police Department Daily Activity Log: Sunday, November 6, 2022
22-M09657 Unconscious Person
Incident Address: 700 blk DEAKIN AVE
MOSCOW ID 83843
Disposition:
Time Reported: 00:33:01
Cad Comments:
Complaint of female who has been drinking. Not conscious, breathing. EMS and Officers responded. No report.

22-M09659 Unconscious Person
Incident Address: IDAHO AVE; Pi Beta Phi
MOSCOW ID 83843
Disposition:
Time Reported: 01:35
Cad Comments:
Complaint of 19-year-old female, not Conscious, Breathing. EMS and Officers responded. No report.

10-17-22
Moscow Police Department Daily Activity Log: Monday, October 17, 2022
22-M09003 Unconscious Person
Incident Address: 1000 blk W PULLMAN RD
MOSCOW ID 83843
Disposition:
Time Reported: 18:05
Cad Comments:
Intoxicated male unconscious. EMS, Fire, and Law responded. No report.

10-9-22
Moscow Police Department Daily Activity Log: Sunday, October 9, 2022
22-M08722 Unconscious Person
Incident Address: 500 blk SWEET AVE
MOSCOW ID 83843
Disposition:
Time Reported: 02:33
Cad Comments:
Law/Fire/EMS responded. One transported. No report.

10-7-22 - just off campus
Moscow Police Department Daily Activity Log: Friday, October 7, 2022
22-M08685 Unconscious Person
Incident Address: 900 blk S ADAMS ST
MOSCOW ID 83843
Disposition: ACT
Time Reported: 22:15
Cad Comments:
Law/Fire/EMS responded. One transported. No report.

9-25-22
Moscow Police Department Daily Activity Log: Sunday, September 25, 2022
22-M08250 Unconscious Person
Incident Address: NEZ PERCE DR; Sigma Chi
MOSCOW ID 83843
Disposition: ACT
Time Reported: 01:50
Cad Comments:
Law/Fire/EMS responded. One transported. No report.

9-17-22 (just outside Pi Beta Phi house
Moscow Police Department Daily Activity Log: Saturday, September 17, 2022
22-M07963 DUI Alcohol or Drugs
Incident Address: DEAKIN AVE & COLLEGE AVE
MOSCOW ID 83843
Disposition: ACT
Time Reported: 06:55
Cad Comments:
Third party report of a female possibly unconscious in a vehicle. Officer responded and arrested female for DUI. Report taken.

9-10-22
Moscow Police Department Daily Activity Log: Saturday, September 10, 2022
22-M07719 Welfare Check
Incident Address: 700 blk NEZ PERCE DR
MOSCOW ID 83843
Disposition: ACT
Time Reported: 02:29
Cad Comments: 3rd party report of unconscious female being carried in this area. Officers responded. UTL. No report.

7-27-22
Moscow Police Department Daily Activity Log: Wednesday, July 27, 2022
22-M06165 Unconscious Person
Incident Address: W 6TH ST; 4th Wiley Wing
MOSCOW ID 83843
Disposition: ACT
Time Reported: 22:19
Cad Comments:
Law, Fire & EMS responded to a report of unconsciousness. Patients transported to Gritman. Report taken.

 

[10ofRods]

Last eve on the previous thread, OTTO wrote two very interesting possibilities. ETOD could have been based upon a Fitbit watch, which recorded increased heart activity - before stopping completely. This is beyond fascinating (if this is factually possible via FitBit), and the infinite applications for such info remains endless. Can anyone confirm or deny this capability on a Fitbit?

In the last paragraph of his post, Otto laid out the scenario of the killer “watching” the house, occupants, party happenings, and bedroom windows prior to the attack. I too, support this possible theory. I believe it’s probable that he may have had a “favorite” spot selected among the brush and trees…where he could remain fully obscured from view. He would merely have to relax and watch the girls finally shut off the lights, before waiting about 30 - and then entering the home via the suspected POE: slider off kitchen. His mind was already set and intent on killing that night and his “plan” fell into place almost exactly as he visualized.

He must feel super-human right now. Riding on a “house of cards” tidal wave of presumed “power” from robbing the most precious commodity humans have: life. Four of them. Vibrant, hopeful, and standing eagerly at the gates of the future…before he effectively wiped them all completely off of the planet.

This is the crime of which nightmares are made. The ones which keep us all awake late at night. The variants and complexities of the crime scene must be simply overwhelming. The LE and CSI’s have an uphill battle and a late start with this total nightmare. My heart goes out to each one. They are working a seemingly impossible case, while climbing insurmountable odds to pursue and uncover the killer. They’ll be in this for the long haul. The odds are in their favor, as long as they never give up.

Otto is of course correct about fitness watches. They collect data (stored on the device for fairly long periods) about heart rate. I am wearing one right now (Apple watch). I can go and look at my heart rate for a 30 day period (easier to use the app on my phone, but the data is on my watch). I can't remember which other crimes involved fitness watch data, but there are some in the crime annals.

So if even one of the four victims was wearing an Apple watch or Fitbit, that would give a clear ToD for that person and therefore an estimate for the others.

***SPECULATION AHEAD***

Your post made me wonder about a lot of things. I too believe the house was watched. So, we can call that Peeping Tom behavior. In this scenario, the perp has a sexual motivation for this fixation and behavior.

I believe the perp either had access to the house before this fixation was developed OR that he went into the house (perhaps often) after the fixation developed. So now we have a form of stalking bordering on burglary (and we have no clue if this perp took things from the house - the residents themselves might not have noticed),

Perp may then have tried to ingratiate himself into the lives of the people in the house, attending their parties, etc. College students can be quite snippy to people they regard as problem people (which is how this guy may have appeared - not a student, perhaps more than a little "weird" from the POV of the young people in the house). The fact that the house was accessible (and observable) almost 24/7 is part of this case.

The fantasy "love affair" the perp was having with one or more of people in the house was destroyed by actually meeting them and being rebuffed. In this scenario, the perp suffers from a not-so-rare mental condition where they flip on people, going from love to hate in an instant. It's often bizarre and brutal to witness. It's often seen in stalkers.

Perp may not have seen the two downstairs residents often or at all. Perp may have regarded the 4 victims as a kind of "team" who had purposefully excluded him from all hope of human happiness, as he was fixated on one of the them (one of the young women would be the best guess). If in the perp's mind he had an unrequited fantasy relationship with K, then K's departure from the house would have triggered the perp, perhaps inducing actual psychosis, and when K returns briefly, he acts out his psychotic worldview. Psychotic people are often capable of being organized enough to hide the trail of their crime, but if this theory is correct, the perp will have spent many hours over many days thinking through what he wanted to do (because the love fantasy is now replaced with a revenge fantasy and he can't function without his fantasy life).

If this scenario is correct, it's possible that some of the roommates had noticed the "weirdo" inside their house or even asked him to leave if he was inappropriate (likely) at parties. And the odd thing is that many times, young people do not feel the need to be super-vigilant about such people, idealistic as they can be. I know I never thought much about the guy who moved into a spaced outside my room in a large shared house. I mean, I didn't like it at all, it was a covered and screened porch space and there he was, night after night, mostly just sleeping there. I mentioned it only to 1-2 people at the time. It seemed normal, I assumed the guy was a student. I knew people who were living rough while I was at uni, I figured he was just a clever one of those. The house I lived in did not lock its front doors, we all just locked our room doors. It was and still is open 24/7 for anyone to come in and out (except for major vacation periods).

 

[MesquiteO21]

This car ends up not being related to the murders?

rsbm
i kind of don't think this will be the case if the police were confident enough to put the information out. They could end up being wrong, of course, but generally i think it will be related in some way. *MOO*

 

[Down To Earth]

I kind of suspect LE knows the plate of the car and who it's registered to and likely how it ties into the case and even where it's at right now, but they only have circumstantial evidence that the occupant(s) are involved with this crime. MOO they are seeking witnesses, media and any/all info that may lead to more definitive evidence, even circumstantial, that can be used to pursue a conviction.

No way that car uses roadways into and out of the area without being on cameras somewhere that LE has likely already obtained. There has been no statement whatsoever that LE believes the car was involved with the crime, so I'm just taking that leap in order to envision what may be going on behind the scenes with the investigation. Of course it's absolutely possible LE doesn't believe the car occupant(s) are involved, and they are just looking to interview them based on their proximity to the crime only. In that case the press release can be taken at absolute face value. I'm speculating that perhaps LE knows the plate and likely occupant(s) and is hoping the press release causes further evidence to arrive or perhaps even keeps a POI from trying to flee in their car. It also adds another wrinkle if the occupants are found and did not come forward. They would have to have a pretty good alibi for not knowing LE was inquiring about the car and occupant(s).

All just my own speculation of course.

 

[thx4_medic_Babby]

I think it very well could be. If the killer was parked on or in the vicinity of Taylor Ave and the crime scene and drove to the east after the killings, they would come to 95s. There is a gas station on that corner, presumably with cctv. LE provided a grid that covered an area that was all south of Taylor Ave. Why? Normally you center the crime scene in the center of a search grid and work your way out. This seems to indicate that LE knows that the killer escaped in a southerly direction.
I have a hunch that LE watched all the video that passed that gas station between about 3:00 am and 4:00 am that morning and have been able to identify most of the vehicles and interview the owners. All the vehicles that turned north or left on 95 from Taylor Ave have been ruled out and most that turned south into the grid area have been identified. They may have quietly tried to ID this car with no luck before making the description public.

Excellent post; thank you.

 

[Murphy1]

I'd be interested in knowing after someone is arrested, how this all played out but I don't believe it has anything to do with the killer being a dog lover or liking the downstairs occupants better or knowing who called LE to the other incident.

Sometimes the reason has less to do with compassion than timing, circumstances or something else lurking in a mind we'll never understand.

So many puzzling aspects and questions about this case. If the killer was an enraged acquaintance with zero experience, he was incredibly lucky to pull it off this efficiently without leaving behind evidence that points to him immediately. People survive stabbings all the time. The Oregon lady was left for dead after 19 stab wounds and survived. None of these 4 were able to notify anyone or made it far after encountering the killer(s). He had to leave a pair of victims on one floor while he went to the next. So, either he knew exactly where to stab someone lethally (and quickly & quietly) or he hung around until he was sure they were all expired. Not sure the theory about the killer getting away in the white car on police body cam footage is possible because of the timeline we have been given. To date, has anyone confirmed K & M (or anyone for that matter) had any contact with X & E after arriving back around 2 AM?

 

[debirlfan]

What‘s everyone’s thoughts?

If this car is directly related to the murders, was it stolen or borrowed to commit this specific murder? For another reason like house robberies and murder ended up being committed?
Revenge, rejection murders? Obsession with one or more of house occupants, ends in murder and cover up? Envy rage murders, occupants targeted but not known to killer/s?

If it does turn out that the car was stolen to commit the murders, then in my opinion, then the murder was done to shut someone up. The additional deaths might be because they eere in the way, or because the target might have shared info with them. Accorfing to family, K was interested in true crime and particularly trafficing. Maybe she helped someone, or learned something. Those aren't the sort of people you want to mess with.

 

[SuziQ]

From the article:


That's not how things work. He does know that right?

He hired the wrong attorney and PI if they are not telling him this will not work. He needs to be wary of people telling him what he wants to hear just to take his money. Imo.

 

[calmdownjudy]

Do we know how long X and E dated? Was it common for him to stay over at her place?

 

[HopeValleyDevil]

I think they're trying to nudge a parent whose kid might be driving a white Elantra belonging to the parents.

There are 26000 residents in Moscow. If it is a local, its's probably a 3 minute database query to mine the owner with the vehicle.

If it is a student from out of town then that perpetrator is on the university database.

I just feel the perp is from out of town and unrelated to either.

 

[10ofRods]

I’ve been really bothered by the positioning of the house in relation to its surroundings. It almost looks like a “jewel box” sitting up on display. Especially with blinds open & lights on. I imagine I would have felt “on display” in it. Perhaps hindsight influences my impression, but I don’t really question how this house could have easily been targeted.

Yes! If we start with just the pre-existing physical facts about the house, this is a great conclusion. Very perceptive and good way to put it.

EARONS committed two murders at a house in the city where I was living at the time. I had met the victims not long before, and my aunt knew them well. We now know that he chose houses according to closeness to hidden/backroad escapes (not always, but this was his preference). He also chose condos where he was familiar with the setting. He even lived in an empty condo next door to one set of victims, as his DNA was found there, he had been eating stuff at that empty condo, In the case in my city, he had made acquaintance with a pastor from the church across the street from the victims. The pastor was running a lunch program for homeless people, IIRC, and so Joseph DeAngelo (who was apparently living somewhere else at the time but gave excuses that he was "working" to be gone from home), had been to this church a few times. He had opportunity to see the slightly isolated and easy-to-observe house across the street. The house was on a hill and occupants could be viewed from several vantage points all around, their habits studied. That was part of the thrill for him, I believe. That one house, set apart from the others, up on more of a hill, offered him exactly the kind of thrill he needed.

 

[MesquiteO21]

Is LE thinking the car is stolen because the killer switched the license plates? Sorry if this was discussed - I'm way behind, as usual.

they have not mentioned stolen at all, as far as i'm aware.

i would like to make it abundantly clear that those of us saying/guessing it could be stolen is based on the fact that Hyundais are currently being stolen at an extremely high rate in many cities. (here is a SOURCE: Thieves are increasingly targeting these 2 types of cars, study finds)

it is PURE SPECULATION and should not be taken as fact that this particular car they are looking for is stolen

*MOO*

 

[elmomom]

rsbm
i kind of don't think this will be the case if the police were confident enough to put the information out. They could end up being wrong, of course, but generally i think it will be related in some way. *MOO*

One of the first cases I followed here was the disappearance of Lauren Spierer in Indiana. The police released a couple of pictures of a white pickup truck that the wanted to locate that we sleuthed for a really long time. Eventually, the truck and its driver was found and cleared. It wasn’t suspicious at all, just a person out early for work. She has never been found. It isn’t uncommon for them to release things they have no idea about.