ID - 4 University of Idaho Students Murdered - Moscow #3

[slanda]

I’m guessing the perp may have cuts on his/her hand from knife slippage.

Usually, this would definitely be the case: however, the Ka-Bar tactical knife is bound by heavy grained leather to prevent slippage as well as a hand/finger guard at the base of the blade because it is a combat knife meant to protect the combatant from hurting themselves.

Obviously, I hope there was slippage anyway and the coroner did state nail clippings were sent away for testing in her interview on Today. Let’s hope the victim’s were able to get DNA or he left a print/bloody shoe prints somewhere or something.

Coroner offers new details about fatal slaying of 4 U of Idaho students after preliminary autopsies

The four students were found stabbed to death inside a home in Moscow, Idaho, on Nov. 13.

www.today.com

 

[ACG2x]

The way the crime scene has been described in this case as well as the use of a knife very likely tells you something. As the link notes, in most cases the use of a knife and bloody, violent crime scene says to me that the killer is:

• Male
• Between ages of 18-30
• Unsophisticated - crime scene descriptions so far have seemed chaotic, may be first time killing
• In either a rage or paranoia about something related to at least one of the victims
• Wanting to punish at least one of them for a perceived wrong
• Had at least some personal connection to one of the victims - even knowing them casually

MOO - killer was either an obsessive stalker type who was either rejected by one of the deceased females, most likely Madison or Kaylee as both I believe were single, young and attractive or knew them casually and was jealous and felt the need to 'punish' them. Xana seems less likely since she lived with her boyfriend and I highly suspect Ethan was in the wrong place at the wrong time.

There is no scenario where the two surviving roommates perpetrated this or had anything to do with it IMO. The relationship we can see between the girls on SM and reports from family/friends indicate nothing that would say either was involved. I believe they got very fortunate the killer left before exploring the rest of the house and/or breaking into their bedrooms. I'd be shocked if either had any remote involvement here.

 

[Star_crossed]

I've lurked this site for years but never joined as I didn't feel I had anything to contribute; at least not until now.

I'm a resident physician and several things about the lack of clear blood trail from suspect got me thinking about how this could happen.

IMO, the easiest answer would be to utilize PPE like we do in the hospitals. Pre-Covid, all the surgical PPE was back in the OR and more difficult for a random employee to take home. Post-Covid, it became more acceptable to leave surgical PPE on the hospital floor or to see someone pop into the OR to grab a suit, gown and hood before heading back out to the floor.

The surgical PPE is pretty incredible. We see postpartum hemorrhages not infrequently and the PPE has always kept my scrubs and shoes underneath dry. A 2,3, and even 4 LITER blood loss can occur quickly (literally minutes). OR becomes a horror scene with blood pooling on the floor and blood soaking into PPE. After removing the PPE, I am nearly always surprised at how great it is at keeping your clothing underneath dry.

The suspect could have used the following PPE to make for a fast and easy escape.
-Biohazard body suit (we call them bunny suits)
-Surgical gown
-Shoe covers (extend up to. the knee)
-Surgical helmet (basically a hood with built in face shield that tucks into bodysuit.
-double gloved hands in surgical gloves.
-securely tape seams where: pants of jumpsuit meet top of shoe cover, gloves meet sleeves, helmet may or may not need tape.

This can all be gotten for free from a hospital if he were to work at one. One could also buy the pieces online. A lower quality (but still effective) kit could range from $100-$300. Could even be found cheaper perhaps.

So,the perp could have come dressed in PPE, or, they could have come in normal clothes and then dressed the PPE over their "getaway" clothes. Once dressed, he goes in and commits the crimes. Blood is everywhere. He pulls PPE off, bags it up, and walks out in normal clothes without any blood on him. The PPE would also prevent his hair and skin from being found at the crime scene. He may have a bruise if someone fought back, but would likely not have any cuts, scratches, etc. so I would expect minimal DNA evidence to be found.

This is all only my opinion of course. It would require some planning to pull off. It could just as easy be a psychopath who just undressed prior to the murders then showered, got dressed and left without any blood trail.

Hopefully for the families they get their answers soon .

<modsnip> The thought of this person in surgical Ppe is absolutely terrifying . Gives me shivers .

 

[slanda]

I've lurked this site for years but never joined as I didn't feel I had anything to contribute; at least not until now.

<modsnip>several things about the lack of clear blood trail from suspect got me thinking about how this could happen.

IMO, the easiest answer would be to utilize PPE <modsnip>. Pre-Covid, all the surgical PPE was back in the OR and more difficult for a random employee to take home. Post-Covid, it became more acceptable to leave surgical PPE on the hospital floor or to see someone pop into the OR to grab a suit, gown and hood before heading back out to the floor.

The surgical PPE is pretty incredible. <modsnip> postpartum hemorrhages not infrequently and the PPE has always kept my scrubs and shoes underneath dry. A 2,3, and even 4 LITER blood loss can occur quickly (literally minutes). OR becomes a horror scene with blood pooling on the floor and blood soaking into PPE. After removing the PPE, I am nearly always surprised at how great it is at keeping your clothing underneath dry.

The suspect could have used the following PPE to make for a fast and easy escape.
-Biohazard body suit (we call them bunny suits)
-Surgical gown
-Shoe covers (extend up to. the knee)
-Surgical helmet (basically a hood with built in face shield that tucks into bodysuit.
-double gloved hands in surgical gloves.
-securely tape seams where: pants of jumpsuit meet top of shoe cover, gloves meet sleeves, helmet may or may not need tape.

This can all be gotten for free from a hospital if he were to work at one. One could also buy the pieces online. A lower quality (but still effective) kit could range from $100-$300. Could even be found cheaper perhaps.

So,the perp could have come dressed in PPE, or, they could have come in normal clothes and then dressed the PPE over their "getaway" clothes. Once dressed, he goes in and commits the crimes. Blood is everywhere. He pulls PPE off, bags it up, and walks out in normal clothes without any blood on him. The PPE would also prevent his hair and skin from being found at the crime scene. He may have a bruise if someone fought back, but would likely not have any cuts, scratches, etc. so I would expect minimal DNA evidence to be found.

This is all only my opinion of course. It would require some planning to pull off. It could just as easy be a psychopath who just undressed prior to the murders then showered, got dressed and left without any blood trail.

Hopefully for the families they get their answers soon .

Thank you for taking the time to explain how well PPE could mitigate blood splatter and DNA. It really paints a picture and gives me more insight regarding what could have happened. I appreciate your thoughtful response and happy you decided to post

 

[girlhasnoname]

According to the coroner the victims were found in bed, but the white comforter LE is pictured removing from the house looks spotless.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1593475351019106305

If you play the video, around the 30 second mark, that is a jumpsuit worn by the crime scene analyst not a comforter IMO.

 

[Bree1950]

I feel they need to bring in an outside forensic Pathologist. I think they would be able to tell from blood splatter, wounds on individuals, etc a timeline of the actual murders. I feel this case is complicated and needs someone with more experience analyzing complex homicide scenes. I still feel something spooked the killer so he stopped looking for anyone on the bottom level of the house.

 

[sleepysleuth]

I am leaning random killer in this one, perhaps someone who saw the two girls come in late and then followed them inside after they fell asleep. It feels like a crime of opportunity to me, because if the killer had been stalking the house for a while, I think he would have been more prepared to encounter a male and would’ve killed the other two roommates.

I would speculate that Kaylee and Madison were the first victims. Perhaps then Xana and Ethan made some sort of noise, which alerted the perp to others in the home and he then went upstairs and killed them too.

I think it’s possible that the perp either didn’t think that there were additional bedrooms, and that’s why the other girls were spared, or he was spooked off somehow.

I also get the impression that the police initially suspected this crime came from inside the home and after days of investigating they have realized that’s not likely, which is why they are now walking back on the initial vibe they gave off that appeared to say “no need to panic, this was targeted”.

All JMO/IMO

 

[Birmingplumb]

I've lurked this site for years but never joined as I didn't feel I had anything to contribute; at least not until now.

<modsnip> and several things about the lack of clear blood trail from suspect got me thinking about how this could happen.

IMO, the easiest answer would be to utilize PPE <modsnip>. Pre-Covid, all the surgical PPE was back in the OR and more difficult for a random employee to take home. Post-Covid, it became more acceptable to leave surgical PPE on the hospital floor or to see someone pop into the OR to grab a suit, gown and hood before heading back out to the floor.

The surgical PPE is pretty incredible. <modsnip> postpartum hemorrhages not infrequently and the PPE has always kept my scrubs and shoes underneath dry. A 2,3, and even 4 LITER blood loss can occur quickly (literally minutes). OR becomes a horror scene with blood pooling on the floor and blood soaking into PPE. After removing the PPE, I am nearly always surprised at how great it is at keeping your clothing underneath dry.

The suspect could have used the following PPE to make for a fast and easy escape.
-Biohazard body suit (we call them bunny suits)
-Surgical gown
-Shoe covers (extend up to. the knee)
-Surgical helmet (basically a hood with built in face shield that tucks into bodysuit.
-double gloved hands in surgical gloves.
-securely tape seams where: pants of jumpsuit meet top of shoe cover, gloves meet sleeves, helmet may or may not need tape.

This can all be gotten for free from a hospital if he were to work at one. One could also buy the pieces online. A lower quality (but still effective) kit could range from $100-$300. Could even be found cheaper perhaps.

So,the perp could have come dressed in PPE, or, they could have come in normal clothes and then dressed the PPE over their "getaway" clothes. Once dressed, he goes in and commits the crimes. Blood is everywhere. He pulls PPE off, bags it up, and walks out in normal clothes without any blood on him. The PPE would also prevent his hair and skin from being found at the crime scene. He may have a bruise if someone fought back, but would likely not have any cuts, scratches, etc. so I would expect minimal DNA evidence to be found.

This is all only my opinion of course. It would require some planning to pull off. It could just as easy be a psychopath who just undressed prior to the murders then showered, got dressed and left without any blood trail.

Hopefully for the families they get their answers soon .

Thanks for post...hope law reading this--maybe start with looking at hospital workers?

 

[slanda]

*This post is purely conjecture regarding the psychology of and the type of person that could harm others in the way these poor kids were murdered if it was by a serial killer sub-type. I think it’s important to talk about and identify how/why this happens and the differences between motives behind these types of crimes which is what profilers do when looking for a perpetrator of violent crime.

As I write this I am assuming, for arguments sake, that this person was mostly unknown to the group and had no link to the Greek life because IMO, they did not know the layout of the house because if they did, I also believe there would have been 6 victims instead of 4. If this person was familiar at all with the victims, common sense tells me it would have been common knowledge to easily know how many roommates lived there and where to find them sleeping in their beds.

I do not think any one of the victims was specifically targeted per se because why risk trying to kill 4-6 other people when there was only one target?

And since we’ve broached the subject of contemplating what type of killing this was; i.e. Personal, Random, a mix of both, organized, disorganized, high IQ, low IQ, etc… Right now, with the evidence we have, I posit the theory he is (I will use the pronoun “he” because statistically speaking and by the sheer force and stamina it would take, “he” is most likely the correct description) a Thrill Killer, which is a serial killer subtype: Psychology research states they literally kill for the stalking, hunting, and the sheer act of it and are the least common type because there’s usually no rhyme or reason for their abhorrent and inhumane actions. They’re also (depending on how disorganized they are) more difficult to catch because of the randomness of their behavior.

Thrill killers are different from mass murderers (who aren’t considered a subtype), traditional serial killers, and “mission oriented” serial killers.

Here’s some interesting information I found regarding serial killer subtypes:

Google Sites: Sign-in

Access Google Sites with a personal Google account or Google Workspace account (for business use).

sites.google.com

 

[sleepysleuth]

*This post is purely conjecture regarding the psychology of and the type of person that could harm others in the way these poor kids were murdered if it was by a serial killer sub-type. I think it’s important to talk about and identify how/why this happens and the differences between motives behind these types of crimes which is what profilers do when looking for a perpetrator of violent crime.

As I write this I am assuming, for arguments sake, that this person was mostly unknown to the group and had no link to the Greek life because IMO, they did not know the layout of the house because if they did, I also believe there would have been 6 victims instead of 4. If this person was familiar at all with the victims, common sense tells me it would have been common knowledge to easily know how many roommates lived there and where to find them sleeping in their beds.

I do not think any one of the victims was specifically targeted per se because why risk trying to kill 4-6 other people when there was only one target?

And since we’ve broached the subject of contemplating what type of killing this was; i.e. Personal, Random, a mix of both, organized, disorganized, high IQ, low IQ, etc… Right now, with the evidence we have, I posit the theory he is (I will use the pronoun “he” because statistically speaking and by the sheer force and stamina it would take, “he” is most likely the correct description) a Thrill Killer, which is a serial killer subtype: Psychology research states they literally kill for the stalking, hunting, and the sheer act of it and are the least common type because there’s usually no rhyme or reason for their abhorrent and inhumane actions. They’re also (depending on how disorganized they are) more difficult to catch because of the randomness of their behavior.

Thrill killers are different from mass murderers (who aren’t considered a subtype), traditional serial killers, and “mission oriented” serial killers.

Here’s some interesting information I found regarding serial killer subtypes:

Google Sites: Sign-in

Access Google Sites with a personal Google account or Google Workspace account (for business use).

sites.google.com

Great post, and I agree 100%. I don’t see a person holding a grudge and taking it out on three others. I think the killer either didn’t realize more people were in the home, or they were spooked off.

 

[slanda]

I am leaning random killer in this one, perhaps someone who saw the two girls come in late and then followed them inside after they fell asleep. It feels like a crime of opportunity to me, because if the killer had been stalking the house for a while, I think he would have been more prepared to encounter a male and would’ve killed the other two roommates.

I would speculate that Kaylee and Madison were the first victims. Perhaps then Xana and Ethan made some sort of noise, which alerted the perp to others in the home and he then went upstairs and killed them too.

I think it’s possible that the perp either didn’t think that there were additional bedrooms, and that’s why the other girls were spared, or he was spooked off somehow.

I also get the impression that the police initially suspected this crime came from inside the home and after days of investigating they have realized that’s not likely, which is why they are now walking back on the initial vibe they gave off that appeared to say “no need to panic, this was targeted”.

All JMO/IMO

I mostly agree with the theory police initially thought it was probably a murder/suicide crime because it probably took a lot of time to process, LE there isn’t used to such brutality, and the scene was so chaotic/gruesome that it was difficult for them maybe to ascertain what happened. It was probably when there was no murder weapon found and they requested outside consult that they realized there was still a danger to the public.

The only thing I differ about is that Xana & Ethan were on the 2nd floor and they more than likely went first and then Kaylee and Madison on the 3rd assuming they were all in bed as the coroner (IIRC) stated.

I also believe it (from the info we have right now) a mostly random thrill type of crime— which are the hardest to solve and figure out.

 

[sleepysleuth]

Regarding the reasons why the other roommates may not have reported the crimes - if the victims were in their beds, as the Coroner has stated, the other roommates may not have been aware that their roommates were murdered at all.

I can only speak from experience, but I have a 22 year old niece who lives in a situation similar to this - off campus housing, 4bed/4bath multilevel house. Anytime I speak with her and ask “is x roommate at home” I’m always answered with a “I dunno”. She literally never knows when someone is at home because oddly enough, she can’t hear the upstairs roommates from her room over her loud fan, and when the roommates are home, they stay in their rooms with the doors closed.

I’ve also lived in a housing situation with 6 people in my college days - when you live in a party house with that many people you quickly learn to tune out noise. It’s kind of like how people who live next to train tracks adapt. You just do.

TL/DR - I think it’s very possible that the roommates heard nothing and slept through the entire attack.

 

[Star_crossed]

*This post is purely conjecture regarding the psychology of and the type of person that could harm others in the way these poor kids were murdered if it was by a serial killer sub-type. I think it’s important to talk about and identify how/why this happens and the differences between motives behind these types of crimes which is what profilers do when looking for a perpetrator of violent crime.

As I write this I am assuming, for arguments sake, that this person was mostly unknown to the group and had no link to the Greek life because IMO, they did not know the layout of the house because if they did, I also believe there would have been 6 victims instead of 4. If this person was familiar at all with the victims, common sense tells me it would have been common knowledge to easily know how many roommates lived there and where to find them sleeping in their beds.

I do not think any one of the victims was specifically targeted per se because why risk trying to kill 4-6 other people when there was only one target?

And since we’ve broached the subject of contemplating what type of killing this was; i.e. Personal, Random, a mix of both, organized, disorganized, high IQ, low IQ, etc… Right now, with the evidence we have, I posit the theory he is (I will use the pronoun “he” because statistically speaking and by the sheer force and stamina it would take, “he” is most likely the correct description) a Thrill Killer, which is a serial killer subtype: Psychology research states they literally kill for the stalking, hunting, and the sheer act of it and are the least common type because there’s usually no rhyme or reason for their abhorrent and inhumane actions. They’re also (depending on how disorganized they are) more difficult to catch because of the randomness of their behavior.

Thrill killers are different from mass murderers (who aren’t considered a subtype), traditional serial killers, and “mission oriented” serial killers.

Here’s some interesting information I found regarding serial killer subtypes:

Google Sites: Sign-in

Access Google Sites with a personal Google account or Google Workspace account (for business use).

sites.google.com

I totally agree with you on this one . I have a feeling it may have been a thrill kill . Just the fact that they went into the rooms and stabbed them all in the chest with no indication of anything sexual and no indication of burglary makes it seem like that is a strong possibility. Also, as mentioned before , the fact that the others were spared seems like a lack of Knowledge that they were downstairs . I feel with so many police officers and fbi investigators on the case and how high profile this is now that if it was someone close to them they would already atleast have a person of interest . Also, great article you linked !super interesting !

 

[slanda]

SleepySleuth —I agree. I think they’re totally innocent and are going to be scarred for the rest of their lives. Also, theoretically speaking, they may have made it a habit to lock their door while they slept and that could have been enough to keep him away, slept with earbuds in (my sis sleeps with a white noise machine), or it was dark in the house and it seems to have a weird layout so he really may not have known they were even there. I couldn’t imagine what they’re going through.

 

[Alethea]

Regarding the reasons why the other roommates may not have reported the crimes - if the victims were in their beds, as the Coroner has stated, the other roommates may not have been aware that their roommates were murdered at all.

I can only speak from experience, but I have a 22 year old niece who lives in a situation similar to this - off campus housing, 4bed/4bath multilevel house. Anytime I speak with her and ask “is x roommate at home” I’m always answered with a “I dunno”. She literally never knows when someone is at home because oddly enough, she can’t hear the upstairs roommates from her room over her loud fan, and when the roommates are home, they stay in their rooms with the doors closed.

I’ve also lived in a housing situation with 6 people in my college days - when you live in a party house with that many people you quickly learn to tune out noise. It’s kind of like how people who live next to train tracks adapt. You just do.

TL/DR - I think it’s very possible that the roommates heard nothing and slept through the entire attack.

Also I think roommates tend to give each other some privacy that may not actually be there in the physical space. You’re going to try to drown out 4/5 other people using the bathroom, having noisy habits, cleaning up, having guests over, having significant others sleep over perhaps doing whatever. Unless it was extremely obvious like blood-curdling screaming you may have ignored it thinking someone brought a third party home or it was just normal Saturday night mayhem.

 

[FruitTingles]

I think you're right about that. There was something about the way the initial 911 call was made that caused doubt and confusion in the minds of the investigators.

Yes, I got this impression from the Chief’s demeanour when he was asked and said he didn’t know why the 911 call hadn’t been made until that time.

 

[FruitTingles]

Also I think roommates tend to give each other some privacy that may not actually be there in the physical space. You’re going to try to drown out 4/5 other people using the bathroom, having noisy habits, cleaning up, having guests over, having significant others sleep over perhaps doing whatever. Unless it was extremely obvious like blood-curdling screaming you may have ignored it thinking someone brought a third party home or it was just normal Saturday night mayhem.

I fully agree with all of this. I know when I house-shared, I’d pretty much mind my own business most of the time unless I was actually hanging out with my other housemates and/or had plans with them. JMO

 

[Star_crossed]

Yes, I got this impression from the Chief’s demeanour when he was asked and said he didn’t know why the 911 call hadn’t been made until that time.

Which is weird you think he would have said bc the roommates were asleep or unaware of what occurred until that time .

 

[Quim The Extraordinaire]

Unbelievable. I’m totally amazed that she is allowed to speak on this, nothing against her, releasing this info seems against what LE has been doing. Why not just release the whole report? Do they not run things by eachother? Did they want her to leak where the mortal wound was?

JMO.
When there are multiple jurisdictions involved and those jurisdictions included elected and appointed officials, communications coordination gets difficult. The Idaho State Police have installed a pro to be the media / public POC, which has already helped comms. Getting everyone to pull together as a team is still a challenge, especially when there are international and national media organizations and personalities knocking at the door.
JMO.

 

[Emerald1328]

If what the coroner says is true that they were all found in their beds, it’s throwing me for a loop. I previously thought one or two were the intended targets and the other were killed because they were still awake or had woken up during the attack. But it sounds like maybe all were sleeping when it happened, which would mean all 4 were targeted for death. I’m sure there could be, but I’m having a hard time imagining a scenario where all 4 of them were the intended targets. It seems possible that they were all killed indiscriminately, which could point to someone unknown to all of them, someone who wanted to kill just to kill.

IMO

Edit: I understand statistics don’t point toward this type of scenario, but there’s always that small percentage that defy norms.