ID - 4 University of Idaho Students Murdered - Moscow # 37

[RatFace]

That's how we did it in our college house. So does that mean Kaylee already found someone to take her spot in December or January? If she was heading to Europe in January then Austin in February, she'd want to be out of the apartment ASAP and have lined someone up by November.

It can be more difficult to find someone to move in mid-semester but she could have been planning to get someone by the time Spring semester started in January. That's been my experience with student rentals.

 

[NuttMegg]

"I could go on for days about the coroner," Gray added, in an exasperated tone. "Cathy Mabbutt made some personal phone calls to some of the family and released a lot of information that investigators didn't know about," he said.

In an exclusive interview Sunday, Steve Goncalves told Fox News Digital that Mabbutt had shared explicit details of Kaylee's injuries with one of his underage daughters.

"When you're a coroner, you kind of have to go to the parents," he said. Goncalves added that the coroner "embellished a bunch of stuff, like her own hypotheses of what happened and her theory of things."

She had also shared with the father details of the other victims’ injuries, which he felt was inappropriate."

Idaho murder victim's family, lawyer meet with police over strained relationship

The shattered family of Idaho murder victim Kaylee Goncalves had a face-to-face meeting with police and local officials Monday to help mend their fraught relationship.

www.foxnews.com

 

[10ofRods]

Makes for a great read, with interesting points - but I think it’s a stretch. Could be simply the case of a killer, targeting a home, and planning to murder the likewise “marked” four people inside. For whatever reason, (perhaps because if he had watched the home at any time from the back or side, he’d only see M&K on the third floor and X&E on the second) he followed through. The positioning of the home left it vulnerable to such a mission and attack. Exposed yet surrounded by other apartment complexes. The perfect oxymoron and setting befitting a stealth killer’s agenda. JMOO

Yep. Could be. But that word "simply" doesn't exist in my vocabulary, as you can tell. And that's because every single forensic case I've worked (mostly not murders) have had unexpected twists and actual reasons that form a narrative. Always. There's no such thing as a "random human choice." In your example, it's a private residence that's chosen - near a university campus. Already complicated. Why not go out in the countryside and murder an elderly couple on their farm? Why an urban space? There's never any "for whatever reason" in my work, because I get hired to brainstorm reasons - many of them. And to research past cases where a lot is know about the case and the perp. To interview people in prison and jail about why they actually did what they did (after conviction).

It's true that there's a voyeuristic impulse, and such people can zero in on a particular house (just a coincidence that it's mostly young women in a fairly open party house? in that case, I'll switch to a voyeuristic/sexual sadist hypothesis - BUT in the meantime, I'm still totally stuck, as you can tell, on there being FOUR murders. With a knife.

In your version, this person did watch the house all that much - because he didn't know there were two more people in the house. Maybe he didn't care? Maybe four was a magic number (literally, to this person).

This was, I believe, a rapid attack with an escape route and method thoroughly planned.

I'm trying to think of examples of stealth killers - Joe DeAngelo comes to mind (a rapist as well). I have some doubts actually, about whether all of Joe's victims were chosen merely because of closeness to certain escape paths and being single story dwellings (mostly). But there are parallels with this case and you could be right - we might eventually find a Joe DeAngelo out there somewhere (he actually drove or flew pretty good distances to choose his later victims, as he realized the Sacramento area people were getting to be onto him), So far, though, this is not a serial killer.

If you're right, this is an exceptionally scary - and not just for people in Moscow, because this person is probably not done, if that's the profile. If one reason the place was chosen was "young people" and another is "university town," then hopefully LE will eventually see their way clear to at least theorizing in public as if it's that random-ish, then there's no guarantee it won't happen again - somewhere.

There is a reason the Coroner said "stab wounds." That is a specific term. It is in contrast to "incised wound." Both are sharp edged weapon injuries, but inflicted differently, with different wounds. We have, to the best of my knowledge, no indication of the size of the wounds. We have Mr. G's use of the word "gouge". That tells us nothing. Additionally, the Coroner is not the medical examiner. The Coroner would have issued the Death Certificate, which would have little detail. The ME would issue the autopsy report. Bottom line is that we have very little information about the actual injuries of the victims. They were stabbed to death, in the upper body area. Speculating is fine, but we should all refrain from turning speculation into "facts."

I understand the terminology. You and I will have to disagree about ignoring the victim's statement (Mr G). I've come to put pretty good stock in a victim's family member, especially when they stick to the same story. I have no reason to doubt him and generally am trained to listen carefully to what victims are trying to say. It does tell us something, not nothing.

I too am awaiting the ME - as I have stated several times. Of course the DC has little detail - it has basically two slots and I did find it online. I am well aware of forensic procedures, having worked in legal anthropology (and medical anthropology) for more than 40 years. I know who issues autopsy reports. I have been at autopsies. I have done forensic photography as well.

I never said facts. I don't need the warning. I pretty much always remember to put MOO or SPECULATION or "In my opinon" or "my belief is." I am sure you didn't mean to say that Mr G's statements telling "us nothing" is a fact. That's *your* belief and mine is somewhat different.

I have almost no facts in this case, but lots of forensic experience. The Coroner has been a problem (they were all sleeping, then only some were sleeping; one had defensive wounds, some had defensive wounds, didn't suffer - how did she know?)

I do believe that Mr G saw his daughter's body before cremation. I am glad he's reined himself in, but I will never entirely discount anything a victim says in a case. His comments need to be addressed and it must be torture for that family that that hasn't happened.

 

[Montecore1]

Who is the middle aged man at the door?

Can't sleuth him but I wish we could...

 

[JohnBull]

Yep. But, my point is that the internet instructions on how to kill humans specifically mention the liver - which is an appropriate target for a kill.

I'm not too sure just how quickly you could kill somebody with a jab to the liver, unless you hit one of the major vessels that run through it, and even then, the victim would probably have enough life in him to cry out or even make an attempt at defending himself. I think it would be like trying to stop a determined attacker with a .22. Sure, it can kill him, but the question is, just how long would it take?

 

[TooMuchGun]

so now 3 updates for today

https://www.ci.moscow.id.us/DocumentCenter/View/24989/12-27-22-Moscow-Homicide-Update

 

[rsd1200]

Well, we can agree to disagree about whether such people can be calculating, meticulous and efficient. I believe they can and could operate a car (although maybe they shouldn't).

I say this due to years of experience working in inpatient units, from VA Hospitals to State Hospitals for the Criminally Insane, and in jails (intake units; 2 year facilities). I've interviewed a lot of criminals, most of them mentally ill (because that was the project). Some were addicts (who can be very very calculating and efficient - including in how they present to doctors and to police, it's an entire game for some of them).

Someone capable of being brainwashed is an interesting addition to the list. But, how are we to calculate the effects on the brain of "brainwashing"? What part disconnects? How do we know that brainwashing isn't a way of inducing what are basically specific fugue states? Almost everyone is capable of a brief moment of not thinking and not realizing what they just did - perhaps brainwashing makes it a longer period? That was certainly the theory of military intelligence and the CIA back in the days of experiments in the US with brainwashing (like the ones of Jolly West - whose work, interestingly, is seeing a resurgence of interest, I am running into people who never heard of him back when he was technically my boss - but now, a bunch of younger people know about him, as they are interested in cults and brainwashing). To my knowledge, I never met Jolly, but he did sign the paperwork for my hire. He was interested in hallucinogens and brainwashing.



<modsnip - quoted post was removed for insinauations against a non POI and this response is removed as well>


Oh - gotcha now. I feel the same. Was just talking about it. For a very long time, everyone I knew who broke up with a long term SO did not keep close association with them - even if it was "amicable." It was actively discouraged by friends, family, etc. Online advice groups almost unanimously discouraged even talking to an ex again - but we're dealing with Z-ennials now, and I believe they have different views, both of what a "serious relationship" might be, and how to go about remaining "friends" after a break-up. Of course, I still have tearful young women in my office each semester who have been harmed in some way by an SO with whom they are "broken up." And I give them the advice I've seen given by Millennials - which at the first sign of trouble (including arguing over a dog), you just go NO CONTACT (with instructions on how to do it). Z-ennials do not want to do that. They think there should be a pathway to continued friendship (until, of course, there's a problem, but even then, very reluctant to go to police - who will tell them the same thing I tell them - and very reluctant to go completely No Contact).

Back in my dating days (and I didn't date much), nearly all break-ups were fraught with neurotic emotion or worse. Today appears to be different, though. OTOH, it appears to me that if that is indeed JD at the Corner Club, that KG did the right thing and met him in public - and with a couple of friends nearby.

But yeah, I would never have asked the ex-boyfriend onto the stage at the memorial for my daughter. And probably not current boyfriend (fiancé yes, because by that stage, the two young men - who are amazing people - were very much part of the family).

I thought the guy who was front and center was Ethan's friend (who is also a friend of Kaylee's as seen in the body cam videos, but he doesn't mention her at the memorial). Awkwardness.



I figure they invited him up there. Surely. (Although Mr G's expression as it ends tells a different story). It may just be me but Mr and Mrs Goncalves seem to have different views on some things, as grieving parents often do,

I would expect a daughter's X to show up in the audience, but I would never have asked an X to be on the stage. I didn't realize at the time of the memorial that K has 4 sisters, either.

Oh, I agree with you all the way. The only thing about moving on from an ex completely; In small-town settings, running in the same circles, you'll run into your ex at gatherings. You have to learn to adapt and move on. It appeared that MG was doing that. I think marriage and babies were on the back burner for a bit. Iotw, maybe her Momma had different dreams, for M's future, than her M had for herself, at this time.

 

[North_Idaho_Nony]

And I'm always a bit suspicious of folks who run to the press right away. If you've got relevant or possibly relevant issues, take them to LE, not the NYP or DM.

I get that.

Personally, I’m always a bit suspicious of folks who run to media to leak during an ~active~ investigation after talking to LE. There are always those looking for 15 minutes of fame, but I personally take a very dim view of potentially jeopardizing an active investigation. MOO

 

[OrlandoJames]

so now 3 updates for today

https://www.ci.moscow.id.us/DocumentCenter/View/24989/12-27-22-Moscow-Homicide-Update

“No suspect(s) has been identified.”

 

[ACG2x]

IMO, police were given any surveillance footage from the Corner Club weeks ago. Police already know who was at the bar that night, and while the screen grab that is circulating might be new information to the public, it is not new to the police. The Moscow PD website still says that the male that K & M repeatedly called that evening is not believed to be involved.

MOO

I think it's OK to note that the male they called was JD according to the Goncalves family. SG has said it in a few interviews publicly. MOO on this has always been:

• KG & JD were in a disagreement about possession or 'custody' if you will of Murphy because KG was moving to Texas for a job and was going or wanted to take Murphy with her. Since they shared the dog, there was some disagreement here.
• When MM says she 'told A everything' on the captured video, I assume that to be about KG's disagreement with JD.
• MOO is JD & this A know each other and word MM had told him filtered back to JD.
• The girls were attempting to call or text JD to either explain themselves, clarify something or discuss further. I believe that KG attempted to call him first then when he didn't answer, MM tried perhaps thinking OK he won't pick up for KG, but will for MM's phone.
• It's nearly 3 AM so either JD is sleeping or sees the messages and thinks yeah I'm not dealing with this tonight at 3 in the morning and ignores them.

The murders were completely unrelated to anything JD and the above was a typical spat between exes who shared a dog. Perhaps JD wasn't happy that KG was moving across the country but that IMO is completely irrelevant to the investigation.

 

[Jedbooks]

Thank you for this careful and sensitive interpretation of human emotions as a factor in behavior. It makes perfect sense.

I agree. I've been thinking about that as I have followed this case from the beginning and have read all the threads. I can definitely see Kaylee wanting to be in the comfort of home and family after breaking it off with her boyfriend of 5 years. That makes perfect sense to me and she appeared to be close to her family by all accounts. It seems odd that she would sign a lease for a year (if she did) and wrap things up so quickly in Moscow. Had this not happened, I think she would have returned in December to attend some parties, and I assume pack up her things which were still visible in her bedroom per the photos showing the back of the house (Good vibes light, room with the balcony access.) I just happen to think she began to feel ready to move away, be more independent and take the next step in her life. She was finishing up her academics (details we don't really know), eventually planning to move to Texas for a new job, she bought a new to her vehicle, perhaps planned a trip to Europe (not confirmed) and broke up with her bf. It makes sense that she would want to tie up loose ends in Moscow and move on to the future. I have also considered that she might have been feeling scared or uneasy for some reason... and wanted to spend some time at home with her family. I have no evidence of this, but I can't rule it out. While in Moscow, she might have felt safest at that home with all her friends there and her dog. I would have at her age - appeared to be a safe area/town, friends and dog in the house, college years... Even if she had felt some type of uneasiness due to stalking or something else (nothing confirmed of course), she may have felt safe in that house. It's just very surreal and heartbreaking that she and her 3 friends were anything but safe.

All just MOO JMO

 

[ACG2x]

It's actually sad that the MPD has to include a bullet point about the TikTok loon that the UI professor is rightfully suing. I'm sure the TikTok girl is thrilled about this because she got her name in lights. Watch her pick apart the bullet point because it started with "At this time". That lawsuit can't proceed fast enough.

 

[Cindizzi]

<modsnip - quoted post was removed>


Here’s an approved source from MSM.

At 17:50.

KG’s family and ex bf take the stage.
Thanks to those who corrected me on this. First time I’ve seen it and I apologize for saying ex bf J was not on stage with them.

 

[10ofRods]

I haven't yet seen a credible source showing that K moved into the house in August. I do know that it has been reported that the home’s most recent tenants were a group of six University of Idaho undergraduates who signed a 12-month lease that began on June 5.

Well, there's a FOIA body cam video from...August 16? And there are Venmo records from around that time as well. I don't think she signed a lease on June 5, I think the Venmo shows the actual lease holders name. I don't believe they all 6 signed the lease, I think one person did and then everyone paid that person.

I think the Venmo payment was a bit earlier than August 16- like August 11. IMO. From memory. I was wondering the same thing - but didn't jot it down.

Classes started August 22, that much is clear.

 

[Sachi]

Yep. Could be. But that word "simply" doesn't exist in my vocabulary, as you can tell. And that's because every single forensic case I've worked (mostly not murders) have had unexpected twists and actual reasons that form a narrative. Always. There's no such thing as a "random human choice." In your example, it's a private residence that's chosen - near a university campus. Already complicated. Why not go out in the countryside and murder an elderly couple on their farm? Why an urban space? There's never any "for whatever reason" in my work, because I get hired to brainstorm reasons - many of them. And to research past cases where a lot is know about the case and the perp. To interview people in prison and jail about why they actually did what they did (after conviction).

It's true that there's a voyeuristic impulse, and such people can zero in on a particular house (just a coincidence that it's mostly young women in a fairly open party house? in that case, I'll switch to a voyeuristic/sexual sadist hypothesis - BUT in the meantime, I'm still totally stuck, as you can tell, on there being FOUR murders. With a knife.

In your version, this person did watch the house all that much - because he didn't know there were two more people in the house. Maybe he didn't care? Maybe four was a magic number (literally, to this person).

This was, I believe, a rapid attack with an escape route and method thoroughly planned.

I'm trying to think of examples of stealth killers - Joe DeAngelo comes to mind (a rapist as well). I have some doubts actually, about whether all of Joe's victims were chosen merely because of closeness to certain escape paths and being single story dwellings (mostly). But there are parallels with this case and you could be right - we might eventually find a Joe DeAngelo out there somewhere (he actually drove or flew pretty good distances to choose his later victims, as he realized the Sacramento area people were getting to be onto him), So far, though, this is not a serial killer.

If you're right, this is an exceptionally scary - and not just for people in Moscow, because this person is probably not done, if that's the profile. If one reason the place was chosen was "young people" and another is "university town," then hopefully LE will eventually see their way clear to at least theorizing in public as if it's that random-ish, then there's no guarantee it won't happen again - somewhere.



I understand the terminology. You and I will have to disagree about ignoring the victim's statement (Mr G). I've come to put pretty good stock in a victim's family member, especially when they stick to the same story. I have no reason to doubt him and generally am trained to listen carefully to what victims are trying to say. It does tell us something, not nothing.

I too am awaiting the ME - as I have stated several times. Of course the DC has little detail - it has basically two slots and I did find it online. I am well aware of forensic procedures, having worked in legal anthropology (and medical anthropology) for more than 40 years. I know who issues autopsy reports. I have been at autopsies. I have done forensic photography as well.

I never said facts. I don't need the warning. I pretty much always remember to put MOO or SPECULATION or "In my opinon" or "my belief is." I am sure you didn't mean to say that Mr G's statements telling "us nothing" is a fact. That's *your* belief and mine is somewhat different.

I have almost no facts in this case, but lots of forensic experience. The Coroner has been a problem (they were all sleeping, then only some were sleeping; one had defensive wounds, some had defensive wounds, didn't suffer - how did she know?)

I do believe that Mr G saw his daughter's body before cremation. I am glad he's reined himself in, but I will never entirely discount anything a victim says in a case. His comments need to be addressed and it must be torture for that family that that hasn't happened.

Phenomenal post(s). Thank you

 

[Which_pancake]

It's actually sad that the MPD has to include a bullet point about the TikTok loon that the UI professor is rightfully suing. I'm sure the TikTok girl is thrilled about this because she got her name in lights. Watch her pick apart the bullet point because it started with "At this time". That lawsuit can't proceed fast enough.

Agreed. Clearly, the police just use "at this time" as a standard phrase. I get tired of people (not necessarily here) still trying to accuse those whom the police say aren't involved because the language used is not definite. I think we're can all agree the poor professor is definitely not involved - why not also the poor ex-boyfriend! JMO

 

[Cryptic]

In the Sept 1st noise complaint police body cam video the officer tells the 2 males who come to the door that he knows 1122 is a "sorority house". Kaylee was an Alpha Phi. Maddie, Xana, Bethany, and Dylan were Pi Beta Phi. So if the officer is correct, perhaps the house is part of Pi Beta Phi ?

Going waaay back to my university days, I think sorority houses came in two falvors:

A. The official sorority / fraternity house owned by the local Greek chapter and inhabited solely by members of that specific sorority.

B. A house long associated with sororities or fraternities. Most, but not not all, of the residents were involved with various sororities or fraternities. Likewise, sorority and fraternity events would often spill over to that residence. If one is not into that lifestyle, one would probably not want to live there.

My guess is that the officer was stating that he knew the house was a "B".

 

[10ofRods]

Here’s an approved source from MSM.

At 17:50.

KG’s family and ex bf take the stage.
Thanks to those who corrected me on this. First time I’ve seen it and I apologize for saying ex bf J was not on stage with them.

TY - I would love everyone's opinion on it,

 

[Dotta]

Can Alpha P. "sister" live in Pi Beta P. house?

This American University "Greek Life" is novelty to me.

Frats/Sororities seem like mysterious secret organisations.
JMO

 

[RAISINISBACK]

To stab four sleeping people with quite a large knife, I would think would require quite a lot of anger, hatred, and pent-up aggression. Toward? Today's theory is that it is toward one of the three girls, or all three. E was possibly collateral. In the case i just came from, the one person who was the scariest, most disassociated, of the four, (at least to me) was the one who actually seemed the most normal in real life (Just a caring dad who loved their child, their Angel Mommy, God, and Darryl Dixon).

(Just a caring dad who loved their child, their Angel Mommy, God, and Darryl Dixon).

And Walmart shoes.

I know it is the popular belief the girls, one or all was the target. I think that is because they were very beautiful girls. Model material. But college towns are full of beautiful young girls who are not stalked or killed.

I think this resulted from an altercation either at the frat party earlier or a party that continued after E&X returned home.

I think before the altercation there was no target, that something happened in that altercation with E or X that set off a murderous rage. SG said there was a "Hell of a battle" on the second floor.

People seem to think young men don't carry around knives strapped on their belt but that is not true (here they carry guns strapped to their belts in public loaded with hollow point ammo). This is Idaho, where hunting is a big deal.

Then you have the video gamers who are into everything their avatars online are, buying the costumes, knives, guns ect that is used in the game. (think the TV show Big Bang Theory or as a nod to @rsd1200 Boondock Saints.) Also those frat and sorority parties have themes. So what if it was a D&D or Call of Duty theme party?

Or someone who just collected knives and daggers?

Then who is to say the knife wasn't already there in the house? A left over from a friend at a previous party? Or even belonged to E or one of the girls? You know girls are gamers too and into everything their online avatar is into. Or even a gift from a father or brother for protection. Not out of the realm of possibility that knife belonged to one of the girls.

Unless we are young, or have young kids/grandkids who tell us what's popular in their world today, we have no way of knowing what they are up to.

We have very little information on any of the victims hobbies, or if they owned a K Bar knife or any other kind of fixed blade knife. If any of them were obsessed with The Walking Dead and Darryl Dixon. We know even less about E's frat brothers and what they were into. Or the girls male friends and what they were into.

I firmly believe what happened came from that frat house after E&X returned home and K&M were caught up in it because they saw who was there when they came home.

In other words, taking SG at his word, there was a drunken brawl with the perpetrator maybe taking some drug like meth, that resulted in a hell of a battle on the second floor.

Sometimes the simplest explanation is the correct one.

JMO