ID - 4 University of Idaho Students Murdered - Moscow # 37

[10ofRods]

PTSD

Command prompts. Schizophrenia/schizoaffective d/o. Or, brainwashed by deluded ideologies.

Unlikely.

In all of the above except warped ideology, a perpetrator acting within those states would almost certainly not be calculating, meticulous, and efficient. Probably wouldn't be behind the wheel of a car either.

My opinion.

Well, we can agree to disagree about whether such people can be calculating, meticulous and efficient. I believe they can and could operate a car (although maybe they shouldn't).

I say this due to years of experience working in inpatient units, from VA Hospitals to State Hospitals for the Criminally Insane, and in jails (intake units; 2 year facilities). I've interviewed a lot of criminals, most of them mentally ill (because that was the project). Some were addicts (who can be very very calculating and efficient - including in how they present to doctors and to police, it's an entire game for some of them).

Someone capable of being brainwashed is an interesting addition to the list. But, how are we to calculate the effects on the brain of "brainwashing"? What part disconnects? How do we know that brainwashing isn't a way of inducing what are basically specific fugue states? Almost everyone is capable of a brief moment of not thinking and not realizing what they just did - perhaps brainwashing makes it a longer period? That was certainly the theory of military intelligence and the CIA back in the days of experiments in the US with brainwashing (like the ones of Jolly West - whose work, interestingly, is seeing a resurgence of interest, I am running into people who never heard of him back when he was technically my boss - but now, a bunch of younger people know about him, as they are interested in cults and brainwashing). To my knowledge, I never met Jolly, but he did sign the paperwork for my hire. He was interested in hallucinogens and brainwashing.

<modsnip - quoted post was removed for insinuations against a non POI and this response to it is a well>

Maybe y'all's front and center is different than mine and maybe her former bf is more comfortable on a stage. He was up on the stage with the family. I would not have been comfortable being up there, if that was a person who had broken up with me, or we were "taking a break". Not at all. I would have been there for the service, due to being a part of their lives for so long and since we were amicable, but, again, not all folks are alike.

Oh - gotcha now. I feel the same. Was just talking about it. For a very long time, everyone I knew who broke up with a long term SO did not keep close association with them - even if it was "amicable." It was actively discouraged by friends, family, etc. Online advice groups almost unanimously discouraged even talking to an ex again - but we're dealing with Z-ennials now, and I believe they have different views, both of what a "serious relationship" might be, and how to go about remaining "friends" after a break-up. Of course, I still have tearful young women in my office each semester who have been harmed in some way by an SO with whom they are "broken up." And I give them the advice I've seen given by Millennials - which at the first sign of trouble (including arguing over a dog), you just go NO CONTACT (with instructions on how to do it). Z-ennials do not want to do that. They think there should be a pathway to continued friendship (until, of course, there's a problem, but even then, very reluctant to go to police - who will tell them the same thing I tell them - and very reluctant to go completely No Contact).

Back in my dating days (and I didn't date much), nearly all break-ups were fraught with neurotic emotion or worse. Today appears to be different, though. OTOH, it appears to me that if that is indeed JD at the Corner Club, that KG did the right thing and met him in public - and with a couple of friends nearby.

But yeah, I would never have asked the ex-boyfriend onto the stage at the memorial for my daughter. And probably not current boyfriend (fiancé yes, because by that stage, the two young men - who are amazing people - were very much part of the family).

I thought the guy who was front and center was Ethan's friend (who is also a friend of Kaylee's as seen in the body cam videos, but he doesn't mention her at the memorial). Awkwardness.

IMO JMO but I'd have gone out of love and respect and friendship and loyalty for my long-time love and her family. If I did nothing to hurt her, I'd be ashamed of myself for not showing up but that's just me. Just because people break up doesn't mean they quit loving and caring about one another.

I figure they invited him up there. Surely. (Although Mr G's expression as it ends tells a different story). It may just be me but Mr and Mrs Goncalves seem to have different views on some things, as grieving parents often do,

I would expect a daughter's X to show up in the audience, but I would never have asked an X to be on the stage. I didn't realize at the time of the memorial that K has 4 sisters, either.

 

[Strong1]

"Seems likely that maybe they were s!eeping".

Wow, "likely that maybe"? That statement right there sums up this whole case. MOO

 

[NuttMegg]

Wow, "likely that maybe"? That statement right there sums up this whole case. MOO

sums up the credibility of the coroner, anyway. Imo

 

[rsd1200]

But a very interesting out of the box theory. Indeed, you're moving right ahead into an area we haven't really explored - which is the victimology of this crime. Since we do not know an individual target, we can definitely theorize about who, exactly, the intended victims are. Perhaps not just the four dead students.

Maybe all students in general (through anxiety and terror), maybe the town in general, maybe all college bound young people?

I hadn't thought of police, though. I can envision a scenario in which Murderer feels that SOME people get better treatment by the police than others. And yes, taking away LE's reliance on DNA is a major blow (and that's basically what happened here, IMO). Yep, no specific target.

And, perhaps the killer is testing his own Rules of Engagement. Will people who know him...tell on him, in any way? I sure would be afraid to, if I sensed anything remotely like his true nature.

This crime could haunt those specific police in Moscow for the rest of their lives (and the FBI/ISP involved as well). As well as others who feel they might have foreseen it.

It is still so surreal.


I just posted where she said otherwise. I'll go find it again.

Here's the quote from the article cited below:

//
Steven Goncalves said he asked the coroner, Cathy Mabbutt, how many times the victims were stabbed.

"She says, sir, I don't think stabs is the right word, it was like tears, like this was a strong weapon, not like a stab," he told Fox News Digital Sunday.//

Idaho murders: Father of slain victim says she had 'big open wounds,' calls police 'cowards'

The father of slain University of Idaho student Kaylee Goncalves said the victims had "big open gouges" that were clearly the work of a "sadistic male" and called police "cowards" for not sharing more with the public.

www.fox10phoenix.com

This is of course according to Mr. G. In the next article, the word "slashing" is used. But in the above article, Mr G says the Coroner specifically corrected him and chose a different word than "stab."

Idaho murders: Father of slain victim says she had 'big open wounds,' calls police 'cowards'

The father of slain University of Idaho student Kaylee Goncalves said the victims had "big open gouges" that were clearly the work of a "sadistic male" and called police "cowards" for not sharing more with the public.

www.fox29.com

AFAIK, the death certificate is not public - but if anyone has heard what it actually said besides Homicide, please point us to it.

This is going to sound quite awful, but, based on the type of weapon they were seeking, that would likely account for the tearing. A point on a knife like that, a survival-style knife is what I call them, will push through. The serrated edges will tear as it's being pulled out. Because of their ability to catch on to things with the knife's serrated edges, they are not recommended as personal safety knives by some, others disagree. Withdrawing the knife is what some say could pose to be problematic if it catches on thick clothing. Most deer hunters don't use them for skinning b/c of the possibility of the edges grabbing and puncturing organs they don't want to be torn and punctured. That's the best explanation I can give without getting too graphic. This is just from being an old person, so JM2¢.

 

[OckhamsRazor22]

All this just boggles my mind. It sound like he enjoyed seeing them suffer. That breaks my heart.

…it’s the “nature of the beast” for sure. It is part of the drive and compelling urge overwhelming their mental state and senses. JMOO

 

[Cindizzi]

KG's family and JD were onstage at the Celebration of Life in early December that was hosted by Real Life Ministries. JD was on stage with KG's family, but he didn't speak.

'Gifts to this world': Family, friends and surviving roommates remember UI students at Post Falls celebration of life

Family, friends and the North Idaho community gathered Friday to remember the four University of Idaho students who were brutally killed last month.

www.spokesman.com

Thanks!
I stand corrected.

 

[Cindizzi]

He was up there with her family.

Thanks.

 

[layer]

so if i'm understanding correctly, she moved in in August, moved out November-ish? well sounds like she was still in the process of moving out so mid-November. So she was only there for basically 2.5 months, possibly ~3?

I haven't yet seen a credible source showing that K moved into the house in August. I do know that it has been reported that the home’s most recent tenants were a group of six University of Idaho undergraduates who signed a 12-month lease that began on June 5.

 

[branmuffin]

This has been a question of much discussion in my household. Two of us are college professors. Most classes at U of Idaho were being held in the real world. I noticed that K's name was not on the list of graduates at the recent graduation, so she must have had coursework to complete. In fact, I find it hard to believe she didn't have at least 9-12 units, given that she was graduating a semester early and had done an internship (rather than stay in Moscow and do coursework) during the summer. Maybe there were more online classes during the summer.

K arrives in Moscow around mid-August (August 11?) and the party at 1122 King Road is Sept 1. She is on body cam in August for a noise complaint (at 1122 King Road). Her mother says she came home about 10 days before Nov 12, so let's say around Nov 2. It doesn't sound like she was planning to come back again until graduation. It's possible she found shorter courses (accelerated courses) to finish her units, but units are units, and that would be an unusual way to finish out a degree (accelerated courses are usually lower division courses, for what I hope are obvious reasons).

Why did she leave early? Getting a paid internship during the summer is quite an accomplishment, and may have signaled a career change for her (University president announced her major as General Studies when he gave his press release regarding the tragedy). How did she find the internship? She had over 50,000 followers at the time of her death (and almost 60,000 now). That's a lot of social contacts. We know nothing about her online interactions with this growing group of people - nor do we know what aspects of her content on instagram drew that many followers. Was she networking nationwide?

Her lease must have been up in December, so why did she leave early? AND break up with her longterm boyfriend at around the same time? The break-up is said to have occurred about 10 days before she went back home (so let's say Oct 24ish).

This is a lot of change for even a young person. It's possible she had only lower division requirements to complete (say, an English course) and got permission from a prof to work from home (students ask for that all the time - but generally, they have to have a good reason, such as illness).

Anyway, at what point did she register for fully online classes, if she did (I'm finding plenty of GE classes that were fully online). Why would a student pay for rent if they didn't have to? She apparently intended to occupy (and party at) 1122 King Road for her last semester. What changed her mind?

I'm not disrespecting her goals of having fun during her last semester at university, I'm just curious about what changed during the semester, given that she signed a lease, apparently had classes on campus (why else be there?) and then changed midstream. She apparently gave no clues to her parents, other than excitement about wanting the next phase of her life to begin (which might be precisely what motivated her to move away from Moscow). Was she really going to backpack Europe by herself?

I wondered that, too. Backpacking in Europe in January is budget friendly. Places aren't crowded, accommodations are cheaper. Still, KG doesn't strike me as a girl who would do a budget holiday. Maybe her plan was to focus on Portugal, maybe the Algarve. I wonder if the Goncalves family have relatives in Portugal.

 

[OckhamsRazor22]

I believe there was a score to settle, of those two choices. Today, I'm looking at serial killers a bit, but hardly any of their murders resemble this one. And serial killers come in so many varieties, it's literally crazy.

This, to me, is more like a family annihilation situation (think Chris Watts). The victims were like a little family to each other, all except Ethan having roots in Couer D'Alene and long friendships. Two of the girls were "sisters" in an organization (with each other) and the third is said to have considered another victim as her "chosen sister." This is more like those crimes when a vengeful person decides to kill a group of related people, jointly the object or rage, anger - or panic. I never rule out fear and panic as motivation for murder, as it happens all the time. We see kids killing parents because "I didn't want them to find out about...this or that."

Yet, it has an element of planning and stealth that speaks to a personality type - probably shared with one of the serial killer types (again, they can be schizophrenic like Berkowitz or Jared Loughner or James Holmes; but equally likely to have one or more personality disorder, such as Antisocial - like Ted Bundy). There are other diagnoses and of course, many serial killers never get a formal diagnosis. These are all just currently useful labels in American culture - they simply give us a handle on what another person's mind and behavior might be.

Sadly, most of these killers have unique characteristics and almost all have an incredible ability to blend in well enough, or at least, for a while.

The "score to settle" theory makes sense to me because I believe this particular killer spied on the house, was likely in the house before, knew all of the victims in one way or another, and, perhaps, was motivated by bizarre beliefs such as "these kids have it too good" or "I can't stand people like this." If one of them had actually made an enemy out of this person (narcissistic slight? rejection? mockery? disrespect? gossip? pranking? something more antisocial?), it somehow makes more sense to me. The person chose a quiet night and I believe they knew the weekend behavior of the house's occupants. I believe they were able to get back to their own place/safe space quickly.

I'm willing to consider sociopathic serial killer/random killer on the loose in Moscow, Idaho. Would have left by now, of course. But they were around for a while, they knew the situation.

Of the "score to settle" group, my lunch money bet goes to a student who either missed out on graduating for the past couple of years and is marginally living the university life (increasingly excluded from the doings of younger people as he ages) and someone who is interpersonally aggressive, likely arrogant, into weaponry and the gym, and has thought about or committed crimes such as breaking and entering, stalking, peeping through windows, petty theft, cheating on coursework, etc. Many campus murders are "score to settle," as when grad students kill their dissertation advisors for refusing to accept a dissertation as it stands and requiring more work, etc. We could say that sometimes people have a sense of entitlement?

Makes for a great read, with interesting points - but I think it’s a stretch. Could be simply the case of a killer, targeting a home, and planning to murder the likewise “marked” four people inside. For whatever reason, (perhaps because if he had watched the home at any time from the back or side, he’d only see M&K on the third floor and X&E on the second) he followed through. The positioning of the home left it vulnerable to such a mission and attack. Exposed yet surrounded by other apartment complexes. The perfect oxymoron and setting befitting a stealth killer’s agenda. JMOO

 

[Auntie Cipation]

I haven't yet seen a credible source showing that K moved into the house in August. I do know that it has been reported that the home’s most recent tenants were a group of six University of Idaho undergraduates who signed a 12-month lease that began on June 5.

Yes. To me, signing a lease does not necessarily mean newly moving in. Even if some of the tenants had been in the house for years, they would IMO still have signed the lease when it came up each year.

 

[10ofRods]

As you pointed out, that is what Mr G SAID the Coroner told him. I don't think that should be given much accuracy at this point. But again it is an example of someone saying they were told something, and pretty soon the underlying statement is taken as fact. This is why hearsay is not allowed in court. A stab with a survival type knife, like a K-bar with a serrated back side, would leave horrific wounds from just a stab. It would rip the flesh as it is withdrawn. But it is still a stab.

Okay - I did find the press release (stabbing). But to me, that's a blanket word that covers a death (like "gunshot wound" does) but there are specifics behind it. I actually have stopped doubting Mr G's impression of the wounds (but that's probably just me looking through my forensic atlas of knife wounds - haven't looked at a modern copy for years).

I agree that all knife wounds can be considered stabs, but I'm already thinking about what the jury will see and what terms they'll use inside their heads. Stab, sure - but if there are not several puncture wounds - and instead the abdomen is ripped open and the liver is pulverized, as one can expect with a military grade personal defense knife - it's not going to look the way most of us imagine "stabs." That brings to mind a stabbing grip rather than the saber grip that was likely used with this knife (if the person knew what they were doing). Nor would an ordinary stab to the lungs and one stab to the liver cause near instant death in most people. But slicing up the internal organs would indeed cause rapid death. Mr G is likely trying to get the public to see that. He keeps using various synonyms.

Here on WS, many believe there was a stabbing action (like a frenzy) and that does cause muscle tiredness and does risk hitting bone with the knife. The methods discussed in USMC literature and, especially, shown on youtube videos about how to use this type of knife to kill someone are quite different. That's why it's important to me. This wasn't like the shower scene in psycho, it's more like a battle scene. IMO.

In the wound you are describing, I think a ME would indicate the initial point of entry as "the stab" or "the knife piercing" and then the subsequent action of using the blade (serrated or not - doesn't have to be serrated) in a ripping action. I don't think large (larger than 4-5") open wounds can be caused merely by plunging the Ka-Bar and pulling it out, but a slicing gesture would (just like a scalpel). In my wound atlas, there are several pictures pre-autopsy of such wounds with varying knives involved. They are quite distinct from rapid plunging in and out movements (which, btw, is what occurred when the couple was killed over in Oregon, I believe it was - about a year before this killing and at 3 am, etc - so has been used here as a hint at a SK).

(I just went and peeked again and managed to open to an article about how penetrating wounds to the heart (stabs) are not as lethal as they used to be, because of prompt emergency services - and can be accomplished with a small knife and a strong person - but the blade is unlikely to be able to administer more than 1-2 such wounds). Makes me feel weird that a lot of this information is so readily available online - I figure it's just a few honorable people on WS who are reading these long posts of mine).

The general category used by forensic pathologist is "penetrating wounds," subdivided into many (horrific) types.

 

[blackbeary]

I haven't yet seen a credible source showing that K moved into the house in August. I do know that it has been reported that the home’s most recent tenants were a group of six University of Idaho undergraduates who signed a 12-month lease that began on June 5.

This. Idaho Statesman paper?
M00

 

[blackbeary]

IMO, police were given any surveillance footage from the Corner Club weeks ago. Police already know who was at the bar that night, and while the screen grab that is circulating might be new information to the public, it is not new to the police. The Moscow PD website still says that the male that K & M repeatedly called that evening is not believed to be involved.

MOO

Who is the middle aged man at the door?

 

[rsd1200]

"Seems likely that maybe they were s!eeping".

One had defensive wounds, but the rest she didn't elaborate. Honestly, how do we know that one or more didn't wake up? It may never truly be known unless the assailant(s) tell us (and will it be their God's honest?).

Again, I learned a lot from the R/G case I was following these past six years, which blew me away. We were told the victims were shot execution-style, most asleep in their beds, in the beginning. In reality, at least four of the victims probably knew they were about to be murdered, based on testimony (two most definitely did and were not in bed at all).

 

[hopewell]

Well, we can agree to disagree about whether such people can be calculating, meticulous and efficient. I believe they can and could operate a car (although maybe they shouldn't)

I say this due to years of experience working in inpatient units, from VA Hospitals to State Hospitals for the Criminally Insane, and in jails (intake units; 2 year facilities). I've interviewed a lot of criminals, most of them mentally ill (because that was the project). Some were addicts (who can be very very calculating and efficient - including in how they present to doctors and to police, it's an entire game for some of them).

Folks in an acute state of dissociative/psychotic aggression, be it from a mental disorder or drug-induced, simply aren't cognitively capable of planning and covering up a mass murder. Behavior is typically belligerent, unruly, and unpredictable. Could it be murderous? Sure. But could it murderous and calculating? Unlikely. Can those symptoms be latent/dormant/unreliably absent during forensic interviews? Certainly.

Someone capable of being brainwashed is an interesting addition to the list. But, how are we to calculate the effects on the brain of "brainwashing"? What part disconnects? How do we know that brainwashing isn't a way of inducing what are basically specific fugue states? Almost everyone is capable of a brief moment of not thinking and not realizing what they just did - perhaps brainwashing makes it a longer period? That was certainly the theory of military intelligence and the CIA back in the days of experiments in the US with brainwashing (like the ones of Jolly West - whose work, interestingly, is seeing a resurgence of interest, I am running into people who never heard of him back when he was technically my boss - but now, a bunch of younger people know about him, as they are interested in cults and brainwashing). To my knowledge, I never met Jolly, but he did sign the paperwork for my hire. He was interested in hallucinogens and brainwashing.

Brainwashing is perhaps the wrong word. Indoctrination to a rigid set of beliefs and believing that one's acts are guided and/or mandated by said beliefs is more apt. Think cult or similar.

My opinion.

 

[SteveP]

Who is the middle aged man at the door?

Whoever he is, he is someone we cannot sleuth. Kind of like all the others in that photo.

 

[layer]

This. Idaho Statesman paper?
M00

Yes, link embedded in the quote.

 

[PrairieWind]

Okay - I did find the press release (stabbing). But to me, that's a blanket word that covers a death (like "gunshot wound" does) but there are specifics behind it. I actually have stopped doubting Mr G's impression of the wounds (but that's probably just me looking through my forensic atlas of knife wounds - haven't looked at a modern copy for years).

I agree that all knife wounds can be considered stabs, but I'm already thinking about what the jury will see and what terms they'll use inside their heads. Stab, sure - but if there are not several puncture wounds - and instead the abdomen is ripped open and the liver is pulverized, as one can expect with a military grade personal defense knife - it's not going to look the way most of us imagine "stabs." That brings to mind a stabbing grip rather than the saber grip that was likely used with this knife (if the person knew what they were doing). Nor would an ordinary stab to the lungs and one stab to the liver cause near instant death in most people. But slicing up the internal organs would indeed cause rapid death. Mr G is likely trying to get the public to see that. He keeps using various synonyms.

Here on WS, many believe there was a stabbing action (like a frenzy) and that does cause muscle tiredness and does risk hitting bone with the knife. The methods discussed in USMC literature and, especially, shown on youtube videos about how to use this type of knife to kill someone are quite different. That's why it's important to me. This wasn't like the shower scene in psycho, it's more like a battle scene. IMO.

In the wound you are describing, I think a ME would indicate the initial point of entry as "the stab" or "the knife piercing" and then the subsequent action of using the blade (serrated or not - doesn't have to be serrated) in a ripping action. I don't think large (larger than 4-5") open wounds can be caused merely by plunging the Ka-Bar and pulling it out, but a slicing gesture would (just like a scalpel). In my wound atlas, there are several pictures pre-autopsy of such wounds with varying knives involved. They are quite distinct from rapid plunging in and out movements (which, btw, is what occurred when the couple was killed over in Oregon, I believe it was - about a year before this killing and at 3 am, etc - so has been used here as a hint at a SK).

(I just went and peeked again and managed to open to an article about how penetrating wounds to the heart (stabs) are not as lethal as they used to be, because of prompt emergency services - and can be accomplished with a small knife and a strong person - but the blade is unlikely to be able to administer more than 1-2 such wounds). Makes me feel weird that a lot of this information is so readily available online - I figure it's just a few honorable people on WS who are reading these long posts of mine).

The general category used by forensic pathologist is "penetrating wounds," subdivided into many (horrific) types.

There is a reason the Coroner said "stab wounds." That is a specific term. It is in contrast to "incised wound." Both are sharp edged weapon injuries, but inflicted differently, with different wounds. We have, to the best of my knowledge, no indication of the size of the wounds. We have Mr. G's use of the word "gouge". That tells us nothing. Additionally, the Coroner is not the medical examiner. The Coroner would have issued the Death Certificate, which would have little detail. The ME would issue the autopsy report. Bottom line is that we have very little information about the actual injuries of the victims. They were stabbed to death, in the upper body area. Speculating is fine, but we should all refrain from turning speculation into "facts."

 

[Sister Golden Hair]

Although Mr G's expression as it ends tells a different story

IMO JMO I didn't notice that. WRT KG's father and J, they seem to be very different types, at least superficially. IIRC SG referred to himself as an alpha, and J strikes me as the intellectual type, but not necessarily 'alpha' (which btw is a compliment from my perspective), and I thought the contrast between the two men, superficially, and only IMO, seemed interesting.

editing b/c I watched it: IMO JMO ICBW but I didn't see contempt, I just saw an eyebrow raise and an oh-well look imo jmo. One thing that is notable is how much taller J is.