ID - 4 University of Idaho Students Murdered - Moscow # 38

[Sister Golden Hair]

I am a great lover of animals, but I also know (and love) many hunters. Someone would injure my dogs or horses over my dead body, but I have shot at (and missed) a coyote that was using my chickens as a dinner buffet and bit one of my dogs. I'm also alot more comfortable with hunters who eat what they kill than I am those who hunt for trophies - even though both are legal. I suppose I am a study in contrasts.

One thing I found fascinating and unexpected about the FBI bulletin is that only 16% of offenders seem to start by hurting animals. That it's apparently more common for someone to start by hurting humans and then hurting animals later. I was also appalled to learn how many abusive spouses injure companion animals, and how often their children see it.

We have all read about serial killers who mistreated animals, but I've never read that it was thought to be practice for killing a person. And, as someone said earlier, animal anatomy just isn't at all comparable to human anatomy. I certainly haven't done an exhaustive study, but I don't recall reading any serial killer profiles that stated the person was an avid hunter and that hunting preceded their graduation to human prey. So, I have doubts about the link between hunting and situations like this.

JMO

jmo imo... if you read my later posts, I explain my thinking. I can see how hunting could be of interest to a killer in training, regardless of where the organs are located. There are other things that would align. I don't think it's just about anatomy. It also requires a certain detachment, willingness to kill a sentient being, etc. jmo imo.

edited to add: I think it also matters how one defines 'hunting'. IMO JMO the people who read this and immediately jump to defend hunters are likely thinking of the person who hunts for food or enjoyment. I'm not saying that every person who does that might become a killer of humans.

My definition of hunting is not just as a sport, but includes killing animals for fun or practice. I'm not talking about the person who goes and shoots some ducks over a weekend (I could never, but I know some enjoy it). Skills sometimes related to hunting like (sorry, about to get gross here) disembowelment, skinning, bleeding out, decapitation, butchering, etc., could be of interest to a wanna-be killer and they might indulge with animals to get the feel of it. (Of course, not all hunters do those bloodier things themselves, but some do.) IMO it is reasonable to think that this killer might have practiced hunting animals before hunting humans, in the same way that someone who wants to cook meth probably learns some basic skills first. imo jmo.

 

[Sister Golden Hair]

Following that concept then people who work in slaughterhouses would fit the same profile. They use knives and kill animals. That doesn't follow that they are going to murder 4 kids in college.

Many people hunt and kill animals to eat them. Others work in poultry houses or slaughterhouses and kill animals for food. That frozen beef you buy at the store today was at one time a live animal someone killed to make it end up on your dinner table.

JMO

well, I don't buy frozen beef or pork, etc., I don't buy it fresh, etc., so we're safe, and I NEVER said that one followed the other. if you read my posts, you'll see that.

Also, I knew I'd read about this, but had to find a link: https://animalstudies.msu.edu/Slaughterhouses_and_Increased_Crime_Rates.pdf

this is just one that will be allowed, but there are many articles about it out there, and I did consider slaughterhouses as well.

 

[cottonweaver]

Oh, okay - that makes sense. Thank you. I wasn't speaking about the still, but about the video. And I was replying to a post that just said flatly it was a leak, so I wanted to know why we were using that language here.

no probs

it came from the Coffindaffer quote 'As feared, as time goes by, evidence, including video will continue to be leaked. Whether for money or attention or whatever the motive, it is not right and will not help LE in their investigation. Don't we all want this case solved?'

 

[HopeValleyDevil]

Moo, in all likelihood, LE may have an idea as to who the owner of the Hyundai Elantra owing to their recent interviews and press releases which was more informative but remained vague at best. It’s interesting that LE is still looking for the occupants of the vehicle yet both Chief Fry and Officer Snell’s very recent interviews fails to mention the car, at the very least, the whole interview were about their search for context, perhaps to reconstruct an order of “event”. These recent interviews grants them an opportunity to share their inquisition into the “context”, not the car, or the perp.

Moo, If LE have absolutely nothing, they would have release a video (imo, they have seen a video evidence of the car being in the immediate area) but they have yet to release digital evidence or at least an image of the actual car. The Hyundai Elantra pictures they were willing to distribute was a standard stock portrait of the car model, make and year, which would have the descriptions and features of the car in question. There are several unverified footages which were circulated soon after their announcement but the real footage of the car in question hasn’t been release by Le. Moo, they’re telling us that it’s more important to keep whatever images or video evidence they have out of public. One would think that sharing an actual video of the Elantra would encourage possible witnesses to send in a valuable tip, it’s apparent that’s not their priority. Moo, my apologies for being redundant, but I thought it’s important to reiterate that LE is on a mission of collecting digital evidence. Their methods thus far is developing a theory to get the full context of how the murder occurred, they believe that the missing “context” will lead them to a circumstantial links pointing to their POI.

Moo, there are various cases when LE lacks sufficient information to uncover a poi, thus releasing critical information such as DNA phenotyping and behavioral analysis maybe beneficial to their investigation. They did none of the above, they probably have an idea as to who they should be focusing on. In addition, I believe they have a DNA as they stated previously in several interviews and press releases summarizing number of physical evidence collected. Thus far, their inquiries have been about tracing the steps before, during and after the murder (time, locations, video evidence of any kind between those time indicated by LE), their query largely focuses on digital evidence. Perhaps they’re eliminating possibilities and validating events hence they were able to clear some people close to the victims.

Maybe I’m more optimistic.

Moo.

Interestingly, Fox News followed one of our comments and pulled four years of campus parking record sets of Hyundai Elantras.
One of the number plate records is redacted for some reason.

Idaho murders: 90 white Elantras were registered to park on campus as cops struggle to find vehicle

Police are seeking a white Hyundai Elantra spotted near a crime scene just steps away from the University of Idaho in connection with a quadruple homicide.

www.foxnews.com

 

[10ofRods]

It appears you have, I was replying to post that had the word leaked in it.

Oh, okay. Cool. I also see there are some side convos about a still and so on.

I don't think LE cares much about the release of that Corner Club video and may even have encouraged it. This week's theme in the updates from MPD seems to be "please give us your videos of whatever you have on Nov 12-13" etc (paraphrasing).

And, I do believe that one way students will have of providing their videos will be to put them up on social media and then either also send it to LE or just encourage LE to go look. I bet LE is looking at geotagged Tiktoks in that area right now anyway.

My own theory (IMO) is that they have quite a bit of video for the whereabouts of K and M, as we've seen some of it. But nothing from X and E, that I know of. It took longer to establish where they were (apparently at a SIgma Chi party from 9-1:45). They probably know they got back at 1:45 because their phones signed into the 1122 router, but they really want to know what route they took, who was at that party, just like it was helpful to see who was at the Grub Truck or the Corner Club.

Who did X and E encounter in between 9 pm and 1:45 am, can any video of local streets or parties help figure that out?

 

[cottonweaver]

We don’t know who put the image out there. I can picture a scenario where some employees remembered seeing the girls there and went through the footage, maybe snapped a still on their cell phone. And they told two friends, who told two friends… I’ve actually seen parents passing around images that kids should not have shared in the first place. Technology..

otoh I think this ^ more innocent explanation is also very plausible

 

[FlamingoLady]

Interestingly, Fox News followed one of our comments and pulled four years of campus parking record sets of Hyundai Elantras.
One of the number plate records is redacted for some reason.

Idaho murders: 90 white Elantras were registered to park on campus as cops struggle to find vehicle

Police are seeking a white Hyundai Elantra spotted near a crime scene just steps away from the University of Idaho in connection with a quadruple homicide.

www.foxnews.com

I could be wrong, but wasn't it left blank on the initial form? That is different than redacted.

 

[Seattle1]

Oh, okay - that makes sense. Thank you. I wasn't speaking about the still, but about the video. And I was replying to a post that just said flatly it was a leak, so I wanted to know why we were using that language here.

No surprise, the WS-approved source CURRENTLY citing the surveillance video still photo was leaked came from DM-- including the embedded tweets... I've not seen this or the actual video reported elsewhere.

• The leaked surveillance photo was taken from the Corner Club bar at 1.32am

Authorities are now being condemned online by internet sleuths for failing to halt the circulation of evidence and compromising the investigation in the murders of Kaylee and Madison, their roommate Xana Kernodle and her boyfriend Ethan Chapin.

[..]

New surveillance photo shows Idaho students in bar on night of murder

Kaylee Goncalves and Madison Mogen were in downtown Moscow hours before their deaths. The leaked surveillance photo was taken from the Corner Club bar at 1.32am.

www.dailymail.co.uk

ETA: my references are intentionally limited to WS-approved sources

 

[PrairieWind]

The murders happened right before Thanksgiving break. I would imagine a vast majority of students "went home" which might have made it inconvenient for LE to adequately conduct thorough interviews, IMO. (Thus the complaints from many that people were cleared too quickly). IIRC, many (subjective) did not return. Now we are on the Holiday/New Year break. Hopefully after this break we will see more movement in this case. The key to obtaining more evidence might happen when students get back to campus. The key may also be found if certain students DON'T choose to return.

No question that the timing did work to the killer's advantage. Maybe that was planned, but possibly just coincidence. Lots of students to be interviewed would have been gone for the holiday, some may not have returned and it gave a perfect excuse for the killer to be gone too.

 

[Lalalacasbah]

A bit out there but... never know... If there were possibly two people involved (maybe a planner/driver and attacker let's say) I'm recently open to the idea of a boyfriend and girlfriend possibly doing this.

Maybe the GF had a grudge and the BF used it as an excuse to be violent after some fantasizing. Maybe GF asked BF to do something nasty post mortem or something where it was apparent it may be targeted.

Only a thought to add to the pot! JMO, MOO

 

[GGbankster]

Interestingly, Fox News followed one of our comments and pulled four years of campus parking record sets of Hyundai Elantras.
One of the number plate records is redacted for some reason.

Idaho murders: 90 white Elantras were registered to park on campus as cops struggle to find vehicle

Police are seeking a white Hyundai Elantra spotted near a crime scene just steps away from the University of Idaho in connection with a quadruple homicide.

www.foxnews.com

Wow, this is interesting indeed. My mind jumps to conclusions at times only to be disappointed. I can’t think of other possible reason to exclude a plate number for 1 car. It could be privacy or the owner may have personally requested to omit his plate number.

Moo

 

[CityKid]

All IMO IMOO
Still think greek-life is a factor, whether/not an actual member is involved. It does impact the investigation, maybe causing the lack of confirmed (not anonymous) information.

-Most fraternal organizations are multi-million dollar outfits, some with very influential alumni
-Both they and universities are ‘somewhat protected’ in their legal structures.
-The common factor of greek groups is secrecy. By definition.
-This secrecy commands loyalty and a member's loyalty can be readily scrutinized by other members,
eg 'why are you studying with a Mu when we’re linked to the Taus?' 'You can't bring Lambda GF to my cousin's Eta dance,' 'All Upsilons are jerks,' ... and you should agree.
-Members are very young people, many still teen-agers, away from home and without much supervision.

As soon anything inappropriate happens, the SILENCE begins. The greek organizations’ message is "Don't talk.”
Does not matter if it is about yours or any other greek organization and includes all local (non-greek, non-univ) associates. Bring nobody to this house.

Silence = Do not allow your loyalty to be challenged. These are your life-time, chosen brothers/sisters.
LE’s 'If you saw anything or know anything' is the opposite of 'Don't talk.'

UI enrollment has approx 11,200 students with 23% greek membership, meaning there are over 2,500 brothers and sisters across 34 recognized chapters.

Yes, agree, ‘Someone has information’ and it may take an outsider to see it in the background.
All IMO IMOO

Fraternity & Sorority Life | University of Idaho (uidaho.edu)
Moscow police say ‘someone has information’ about unsolved Idaho murders (msn.com)

As someone who went to a very frat-heavy school, this all rings very true. Loyalty and secrecy are paramount.

 

[Walela]

Wow, this is interesting indeed. My mind jumps to conclusions at times only to be disappointed. I can’t think of other possible reason to exclude a plate number for 1 car. It could be privacy or the owner may have personally requested to omit his plate number in the news?

Moo

Perhaps when the student went to register it and obtain the parking permit they didn't have the plate number with them and were allowed the permit with the stipulation they would return with the plate number and just never did and no one at the university followed up on it.
moo

 

[girlhasnoname]

Private Taxi Driver that took K&M home that night:
<snipped & BBM>

'I picked them up about 1:40, 1:45am,' said the driver. 'They had their food, and they were super excited about their mac'n'cheese as girls are after they go to the club.'

They sat in the back, and they chatted, they were normal just like any other night. They weren't upset about anything or talking about anyone.'

The driver said he was familiar with surveillance footage in which one of the girls appears to be talking about somebody called 'Adam' earlier that evening but, he said: 'They didn't talk about him or any boy on that ride.'

Moscow Police have contacted 'Adam' who they have described as 'cooperating' with their investigation.

According to the driver, 'Sometimes the girls would talk about boys but that night they were just excited about their food.

'There was no apprehension, no weird feelings there, no upsetness. There was no nervousness about them. They weren't afraid of anybody. There was nobody following them or following us.

Driver who dropped off Idaho students at murder house breaks silence

 

[Seraphim]

Interestingly, Fox News followed one of our comments and pulled four years of campus parking record sets of Hyundai Elantras.
One of the number plate records is redacted for some reason.

Idaho murders: 90 white Elantras were registered to park on campus as cops struggle to find vehicle

Police are seeking a white Hyundai Elantra spotted near a crime scene just steps away from the University of Idaho in connection with a quadruple homicide.

www.foxnews.com

I am one of those who made that comment and I am shocked they didn’t do this a long time ago. Perhaps LE did.
Reference: Searching University database for registered vehicles allowed for campus parking.

 

[Mark4]

Wow, this is interesting indeed. My mind jumps to conclusions at times only to be disappointed. I can’t think of other possible reason to exclude a plate number for 1 car. It could be privacy or the owner may have personally requested to omit his plate number in the news?

Moo

Or it might not have been deliberately omitted? Maybe one cell was accidentally overwritten at some point? I don’t think it says it’s been deliberately excluded?

Or if it has been redacted, there’s only one with the plate type ‘personalized’ too, maybe it gives away some additional identifying information that would lead them to exclude it?

 

[dianewms]

One thing I want to note: Is LE absolutely in their rights to keep everything close to the vest? Absolutely. But I can also guarantee the city and the U of I are hemorrhaging cash right now. Imagine trying to recruit students for the spring semester or next fall semester with this hanging over the city's head. Many people are studying remote right now and that will pick up the longer it goes, not to mention transfers to other universities in other places. We're in the middle of Christmas break right now and I can guarantee if nothing happens between now and then, more people will study remote if not transfer out for spring semester altogether. This all has an effect on commerce, etc, since it's a college town. Like I said, I feel bad for LE as they are literally between a rock and a hard place on this one. I can guarantee you that the longer this goes with this little information, the more people will be looking at leaving Moscow altogether if they can afford to do so.

I think they may be looking at who is not in the picture.

 

[10ofRods]

No surprise, the WS-approved source CURRENTLY citing the surveillance video still photo was leaked came from DM-- including the embedded tweets... I've not seen this or the actual video reported elsewhere.

• The leaked surveillance photo was taken from the Corner Club bar at 1.32am

Authorities are now being condemned online by internet sleuths for failing to halt the circulation of evidence and compromising the investigation in the murders of Kaylee and Madison, their roommate Xana Kernodle and her boyfriend Ethan Chapin.

[..]

View attachment 390459

View attachment 390460

New surveillance photo shows Idaho students in bar on night of murder

Kaylee Goncalves and Madison Mogen were in downtown Moscow hours before their deaths. The leaked surveillance photo was taken from the Corner Club bar at 1.32am.

www.dailymail.co.uk

ETA: my references are intentionally limited to WS-approved sources

You're awesome, as usual.

 

[Which_pancake]

Interestingly, Fox News followed one of our comments and pulled four years of campus parking record sets of Hyundai Elantras.
One of the number plate records is redacted for some reason.

Idaho murders: 90 white Elantras were registered to park on campus as cops struggle to find vehicle

Police are seeking a white Hyundai Elantra spotted near a crime scene just steps away from the University of Idaho in connection with a quadruple homicide.

www.foxnews.com

I understand it's their photo, but I wish Fox wouldn't run that picture of the gas station video in stories about the white car. It implies that it is the car police are looking for, yet police have never confirmed that to be true. MOO

 

[Txbarfly]

…or perhaps, (and this is ONLY my own personal opinion), the killer targeted the home as it was inhabited by females. With the inner struggle, rage, and screaming growing more incessant by the day - he is overwhelmed with the compulsion to kill (once again). With the all-consuming sense to kill and dominate them to gain a twisted and morbid sense of sexual satisfaction/gratification through direct annihilation (he’s beyond compelled). It’s an added bonus that he feels exhilarated in his victory (fourfold) over death. They are deceased and HE is still alive. Every day which passes makes him feel more alive and in control. A clear winner by all accounts. With an above average intel, this will prove difficult (but not impossible). It was committed by a human being, and the truth is being sought by human beings. It’s definitely solvable. JMOO

It’s not that I have a hard time admitting that I’m wrong. It was more like it was too incomprehensible to think this was a diabolical killer who either wanted to commit a quadruple homicide by stabbing or had no qualms about doing so. I suppose that’s some sort of preconceived bias on my part. So I was going with the enraged male whose obsession with one of the female victims reached that tipping point where he was compelled to destroy her in the most gruesome way possible.

At the same time, I firmly believed that this killer (I always thought one individual acted alone) wanted to commit maximum mayhem and cut a wide swath of devastation. The savaged bodies of four victims would indeed have a torturous impact on first responders, survivors, families, and all the many LE personnel who would answer the call of duty. That doesn’t exactly fit the tragic, delusional loner or misfit who cannot suppress his murderous rage towards one victim. Or does it? How could my brain contemplate and justify such mutually exclusive theories? Or are things not as tidy, as black and white as I need them to be?

Something in the above comments shook me. Something vague, not specific. Could these murders have been committed by two or more like-minded, disaffected souls consumed by hatred and thirst for revenge?

It’s almost too sick and evil to contemplate. This case will be solved and it will be analyzed and studied for years to come.

ALL MY OWN THOUGHTS AND OPINIONS.