ID - 4 University of Idaho Students Murdered - Moscow # 7

[Ontario Mom]

Right, that's why I said often a precursor.
Wasn't the dog found skinned weeks ago? it wasn't like both of these crimes were in a couple day span, as you seem to be suggesting.

My point was, if there is evidence of animal torture/murder, it's usually discovered it took place years before the person began criminal conduct against humans. Not days or weeks, but a much longer progression of violence.

 

[Jealoushe]

One of the many confusing things about this case is the presence/role of K’s dog during the murders.

I don’t know ANYTHING about that specific breed but IME small dogs are very yappy. It seems curious that the perp didn’t kill the dog in order to keep the noise down.

My only theory is that the perp had already done something with the dog (locked it in somewhere outside of the property or tied it up somehow) and that is 1) how K’s sister knows they let it out to pee and 2) why there were multiple calls to J’s phone (“I can’t find our dog J, what shall I do?”)

Sorry if this is covered elsewhere or contradicts anything. MOO.

From my personal experience, dogs don't always act the way you suspect during a crime.

Dog could have been in any one of the rooms. Maybe sleeping with another room mate. My friends and I did that.

Myself I have a dog that barks a lot, great guard dog. When I was attacked (violent, very violent attack and person was familiar to my dog) my dog did nothing. He didn't bark, he didn't attack. He sat by my side looking into my eyes staying beside me beside the bed. When I got my chance to run, he ran with me. Still never barked or attacked. He was more making sure to stay there with me till the end.

It gets frustrating to read over and over how dogs are supposed to act in an attack or crime based on what people see in movies. Truth is every situation and dog is different.

 

[ConcernedAtWork]

My point was, if there is evidence of animal torture/murder, it's usually discovered it took place years before the person began criminal conduct against humans. Not days or weeks, but a much longer

Well yeah, *if* these crimes are connected i'm sure the dog wasn't his first foray into hurting animals or people.

 

[jboole]

I'm new to posting here, so while I've tried to keep up with everything, I apologize in advance if I go over previously-covered material. So here goes: in my twenties I graduated from a rural university, hundreds of miles from any large metropolitan area. I'm thinking the cultural dynamic was the same there as it is in Moscow--an island of happy-go-lucky students with bright futures amid a sea of economically-depressed agricultural workers, some of whom have serious resentment toward the students. So I'm thinking the killer is one of these locals who uses a hunting knife in his daily activities. He's pretty clearly a single male, perhaps who only comes to town on Saturday nights in Moscow to seek female companionship. Since it's been reported that on the night of the murders K and M were at a bar from 11 until 1:30am, I can easily imagine him sitting a corner of the bar drinking by himself while observing K and M as they have a great time with all their friends. Maybe the killer had seen K and M on the other Saturday nights at the same or other bars in Moscow. And I can easily imagine him having approached one or both of them at some point with romantic intentions and having those intentions spurned. So on the night of the murders, the killer follows K and M out as they exit the bar and watches them from his own vehicle as they wait for their ride. Once they've been picked up, the killer follows at a safe distance until K and M are dropped off, at which point he waits in his vehicle. He sees K and M enter the house. The downstairs roommates are already asleep, so their bedrooms are already darkened. It's not clear which of the murder victims arrived home first, X (and the visiting E), or K and M, but regardless the killer has targeted either K or M or both. So the killer waits for literally hours in his vehicle until lights are out, and he can reasonably assume that everyone inside the house is asleep. It's clear that he would have had to enter through the sliding glass door, and I'm thinking at this point he knew K and M were on the third floor, so he goes there first and murders K and M in their sleep. On his way out, perhaps he encounters E and X who have heard something suspicious. He murders them with greater difficulty, but completes the job nonetheless. So I think it's E's body who the surviving roommates have seen "unconscious" before making the 911 call the next day (it's not clear from reports if all or only some of the victims were murdered in their bedrooms). Regardless, the killer has escaped before dawn, and I think he would have taken the murder weapon with him since it's his prized hunting knife. These sorts of "motiveless" crimes are always the hardest to solve, since there are no traditional suspects. IMO it will take exhaustive DNA tracing to find the killer.

 

[Manwel]

Right, that's why I said often a precursor.
Wasn't the dog found skinned weeks ago? it wasn't like both of these crimes were in a couple day span.

Precursor meaning that the killer when he was 13 was skinning dogs and then upgraded to peeping tom or intrusion at age 18 before trying out murder.

You don't skin a dog and upgrade to murder in a few weeks.

Serial killers know right from wrong. They're not insane. They're unstable. Two different things. But by knowing right from wrong they know there is risk and many serial killers don't become serial killers because the risk is too high. They fantasize. They think about it. But many people who are probably capable of killing never do. It becomes socialized out of them or they find other outlets. Or they just realize that if they get caught it's going to be bad for them.

This is why people refer to the "escalation" of violence. You try one low form of violence and get away with it a lot, you get brave. You escalate to a new form.

The Golden State Killer is a textbook example of someone who escalated slowly, sticking to trespassing, then peeping, then B&E and home invasion, then sexual assaults, then sexual assault with murder, then attacking couples and sometimes homes that had children present.

Arguably, if he didn't kill for many years in his old age, he was socialized out of it or he realized the risk was too great. So those things won out over the urge to terrorize people for whatever the hell reasons he had for it.

When he was initially accused of home invasion re: that first girlfriend, the father who was home talked him down by pointing out how it would harm his future desire to become a cop. The self-preservation kicked in and GSK left.

So these people who do this have a lot of self-preservation but also a thrill-seeking demeanor and outsized confidence. They'll test boundaries and cross lines until they feel they need to protect themselves.

 

[EncyclopediaBrownJr]

Just looking at the area where the dog was skinned alive it looks like a more rural area where homes are spaced further apart. What would bring the killer of the dog there unless he lived in that area? He's got to be local to that neighborhood you would think.

 

[SortaSleuthy]

All IMO:
Let’s look at the killer.

He entered a house in the middle of the night, going to multiple bedrooms with multiple victims. In advance, the killer was VERY confident. A beginner killer doesn’t start with this degree of difficulty. Like the Golden State Killer, he likely started as a burglar.

That confidence tells me he has used a knife to kill people before. Perhaps he gained experience by stabbing sleeping homeless people somewhere in an alley. Those cases don’t grab headlines and are rarely solved.

Sooo, in my opinion, he is not only a mass-murderer but also a serial killer.

 

[Bnic84]

From latest Daily Mail:

1891-C272-8344-427-F-9-D20-4-AEEE5-B9-B61-B hosted at ImgBB

Image 1891-C272-8344-427-F-9-D20-4-AEEE5-B9-B61-B in SM Kovalinsky's images album

ibb.co

Why'd they have to introduce them as an elderly couple

 

[kmartin96]

Sorry if this has been discussed. I'm just thinking out loud and won't say I'm near caught up. This is a real-life tragedy and the poor loved ones and I do not mean to sound insensitive, accusatory, or callous in any way, I'm just a little disappointed that I feel like I am thinking a lot about the interview from the parents. Partly, because we don't have a lot of direct information to think about.

But in it they talk about their daughter potentially buying her first vehicle on her own (was it confirmed that was the Range Rover?), potentially coming to school to show it off for that weekend, potentially initiating the break from a long-term relationship, potentially going backpacking through Europe for the month of January (doesn't say with whom), potentially moving to start a new lucrative job in Feb at the same company she interned at, and potentially talking to the ex the whole week and a half she was home and one of the last messages appealed to co-parenting the dog as a reason to come over. They certainly say more than that, to be clear, if you haven't listened to it.

In my opinion, these details could be just terrible and awful coincidences. Assuming it is accurate information. And certainly it's important to remember this is just one side of the story. The way they seem to talk so clearly is gut-wrenching for me as it almost seems like they may not have processed everything fully and honestly could they have. I will not pretend to understand a situation like this for loved ones or how they manage emotions and perspectives afterwards. To be sure, I am not suggesting blame or recklessly insinuating any accusations of anything at anyone. I feel that anything is possible here and I'm waiting for justice to be served every hour that passes. MOO.

I get what you're saying. I listened to Kaylee's parents interview on Fox as well as all the interviews her sister has done. While their composure is amazing...my daughter and I were commenting how devastating it's going to be when/if the intensity of the investigation slows....it seems like the grief and reality is going to hit like a tsunami. I'm so impressed by her sister's initiative and drive to get answers....she really was the first one speaking out with more detailed information...but it seems like this fight for her sister and determination to get the truth is what's allowing her to be strong and focused. All MOO, but I know what it's like to stave off grief while you're busy planning a wake, funeral, luncheon, taking calls, visiting with relatives....it's a whirlwind.....no time to stop.....but then it's over, and quiet and then it gets really painful.

 

[positive]

It dose make sense for underaged drinkers, the girls thought someone was passed out.

E and X are 20, they would be underage drinkers- legal drinking age is 21

Obviously the two girls did not realize they had been stabbed- not that calling 911 5 min earlier would have mattered If they had been deceased for 6 or more hours by that time.
Is their behavior sus in any way? Not at all
In my opinion and only my opinion

In my opinion and in my own life, if someone was found unconscious I would call 911. That does not mean they would or did call911. I am not judging them or even speaking on this exact case. If someone is hurt or may need medical assistance I do not believe that it is up to a relatives judgement to call. That is the only oart I don't understand. I believe the person who found the body most likely panicked and contacted the sibling because they did not know what to do. But to imply that it is a relatives judgement to call for medical assistance or not is ludicrous to me.

 

[chipwhitley]

Hopefully it's ok to post this, more information on the 911 caller.

MSN

So according to this article, multiple people spoke to the dispatcher during the 911 call.

I can’t imagine how frantic and chaotic the call was. Maybe a roommate started out making the call, but was too distressed/shocked to speak and passed the phone to a friend. My heart goes out to the survivors and friends who were at the scene.

 

[ohiobuckeyegirl]

Actually, the chances are quite high. Once you start, following a lot of cases, you will be shocked at how many sickos live among us.

For example, look how many viable suspects there were in the Delphi case. Small town, at least three or four complete sickos!

When I was growing up, our local, famous murderer was Amy Mihaljovic. That case is still unsolved, partly because there were so many decent suspects in the small community.

Unfortunately, this happens all the time. Just search your local sex offender registry. They live among us.

Yep. And, those on the registry are only the ones that have been caught and convicted. Plenty more out there that haven't. Poor Amy. Her case is one that has always stayed with me.

 

[AngTxGal]

Agree, the 911 operator probably asked a question like, “Is the person conscious” and the answer was No. Or it could have been simply how the call was documented.

Right—there’s scientific time of death, what digestion of food, liver temperature, etc. can tell the ME,

and then there’s ‘practical time of death,’ considering when someone was last seen alive, etc.

A coroner came to the scene and pronounced them dead, she is not an ME but is an RN. She may have taken body temp, we don’t know but digestion would come from the autopsy by a forensic path or ME depending on what kind of MD they use.
I’m guessing like you they can estimate later than 3AM due to phone calls- but they don’t know for sure if they made those calls
Also estimate based on time to digest food purchased and eaten from GrubTruckers

 

[ConcernedAtWork]

Precursor meaning that the killer when he was 13 was skinning dogs and then upgraded to peeping tom or intrusion at age 18 before trying out murder.

You don't skin a dog and upgrade to murder in a few weeks.

Serial killers know right from wrong. They're not insane. They're unstable. Two different things. But by knowing right from wrong they know there is risk and many serial killers don't become serial killers because the risk is too high. They fantasize. They think about it. But many people who are probably capable of killing never do. It becomes socialized out of them or they find other outlets. Or they just realize that if they get caught it's going to be bad for them.

This is why people refer to the "escalation" of violence. You try one low form of violence and get away with it a lot, you get brave. You escalate to a new form.

The Golden State Killer is a textbook example of someone who escalated slowly, sticking to trespassing, then peeping, then B&E and home invasion, then sexual assaults, then sexual assault with murder, then attacking couples and sometimes homes that had children present.

Arguably, if he didn't kill for many years in his old age, he was socialized out of it or he realized the risk was too great. So those things won out over the urge to terrorize people for whatever the hell reasons he had for it.

When he was initially accused of home invasion re: that first girlfriend, the father who was home talked him down by pointing out how it would harm his future desire to become a cop. The self-preservation kicked in and GSK left.

So these people who do this have a lot of self-preservation but also a thrill-seeking demeanor and outsized confidence. They'll test boundaries and cross lines until they feel they need to protect themselves.

As escalation of violence can still be there. We don't even have a suspect yet. To say these outright aren't connected because the dog was killed in the last couple months is foolish to me, but we'll have to wait and see.

 

[Jbootneil]

I think regardless of who did it or their motivation I think we can assume now nearly 10 days in that it was orchestrated with a degree of capability.

I know one of the parents said that they created a mess and lots of evidence. That doesn’t necessarily translate to reckless and poorly executed.

After 10 days and with no arrests or even suspects it suggests there is no incriminating phone pings, no clear cut cctv or video evidence of them entering or leaving the scene in a highly populated urban area. Probably no definitive finger prints or dna to easily match the perpetrator (Perhaps suggests no previous record to), and with 500 tips not yet eliciting a suspect their post murder behaviour has also probably been controlled - I.e no breaking down and confessing, or the other end of the scale - boasting. Which considering the horrific murder of 4 people maybe suggests a certain type of personality.

The individual has either got very lucky or planned extensively to avoid the usual digital and physical mistakes that lead to quick identification and apprehension. And you feel after 10 days if any of those mistakes had been obvious we would probably already have seen the result.

Not sure we can conclude anything definitive but it’s another sign to me that this wasn’t spur of the moment, or even quickly planned after something that had happened earlier in the evening or within the last few days. I’m sure behavioural analysts would also suggest it’s someone who is thinking about the process and not just purely acting out of rage.

I agree. I think someone was planning this for weeks or even months. The last couple weeks before holiday break so everyone can go home early

 

[mry123]

This is the part I wondered about their phones. Did the killer take their phones or move them so that they couldn't try to get to their phones to call for help?

I think the stabbings were particularly brutal, your body is in a state of complete shock - I doubt any of them would've been able to access their phones (difficult to explain this further in layman terms). I have a feeling that if he did start with Ethan in that particular room to eliminate the bigger threat, the struggle may have woken up xana - who allegedly may have fought back so he might have then moved his attention towards incapacitating her. Therefore the stabbings Ethan got may not have been as immediately deadly and hence why he may have been able to drag himself out of the room but then later on collapse wherever he was later found. This theory would only work if they were his last 2 victims because that would mean he'd have left that room immediately after and escaped out. Maybe the struggle spooked him from staying longer?
Just my own opinion and purely speculative.

 

[AneutherSleuther]

I am by no means a criminologist but if the grudge was against ‘the house’ (either due to not being admitted to a party, or jealousy of young good-looking kids or whatever) with no specific target then arson would seem the obvious way to exact revenge. I’m thinking of the Childers Backpacker Hostel murders over in Aus but I am sure there are many other examples.

The method used here, leaving behind lots of messy evidence, needing lots of planning, and the risk of other occupants waking as you take out multiple people one-by-one, seems like something else. I’m not sure what but possibly only one intended victim and the rest were collateral damage?

As I say I am just an amateur but keen to hear other people’s thoughts.

 

[mfmfan77]

This is all just speculation, but maybe (hopefully) the surviving roommates didn't see any of their deceased roommates Sunday morning. Maybe they tried to get into the bedrooms but they were all locked. With them being such close friends, I'd assume they followed each other's locations on Find My Friends. If your roommates' doors were locked and they weren't answering when you yelled and/or knocked, you'd probably check your phone to see their location. Realizing their phones at the house and their friends were likely in the locked rooms, maybe they called friends to come get the doors open and eventually called 911 when they realized something was likely wrong? This is probably wishful thinking on my part, but it would be a better scenario than what those poor girls might have seen.

 

[EncyclopediaBrownJr]

So fox news has a guy on the ground and he walked behind the house and they showed a footage of an M on the window in one of the rooms above the deck. Presumably Madison's room?

 

[NickoD]

Fox News was live at the crime scene a few mins ago and they are reporting that the police are expanding the crime scene tape to include what looks like a parking area above the house, almost level with the third floor of the house.