ID - 4 University of Idaho Students Murdered - Moscow # 9

[Choochoobella]

Anybody read this new NYT article yet (see image of headline)? I don’t have a subscription and it’s behind a paywall. Online commentary suggests article may state Kaylee’s sister said K & M returned home at 1:56am per neighbor’s Ring camera (possible if they rushed into a waiting vehicle at Food Truck) and that it was concern about one of the deceased female victims that prompted surviving roommates to summon help of some sort. Can somebody with a subscription either confirm or correct if inaccurate?

Hi Zinn,

I subscribe to the NYT. Here is what the article said:

At 1:56 a.m., a neighbor’s surveillance camera showed Ms. Mogen and Ms. Goncalves returning to the house, Ms. Goncalves’ older sister said.

In one of the video links in the 4th thread (I can't remember which post because I watched all the videos), the reporter was discussing the timeline with Kaylee's sister, Alivea, and Kaylee's mother. The reporter was asking if they were bothered by the fact that the police keep saying Kaylee and Madison returned home at 1:45pm when the neighbor's surveillance camera showed them returning home at 1:56am. They said they weren't upset about it, that the police may have a reason for saying the girls arrived home closer to 1:45am.

 

[Curious Me]

At the 00:50 mark of video


Informative video here:

University of Idaho Murder Victim Ethan Chapin Laid to Rest as Pressure Mounts for Answers in Killings

Stacy Chapin choked back tears at her son Ethan Chapin’s funeral, which honored the 20-year-old’s life that was violently cut short when he and his friends Xana Kernodle, Madison Mogen and Kaylee Goncalves were slain Nov. 13.

www.insideedition.com

 

[slanda]

Sloppy and messy would certainly be the case given what happened in the house. I don't think that necessarily says anything about the killer. Further, it is doubtful that family members would have specifics about the crime scene. That would be asking for a leak of details about the case, and not what LE would want.

It depends on how “sloppy and messy” it was versus what it could have been. What I mean by that: how many times were the victim’s stabbed? Was it a type of overkill that was an unnecessary amount of blood letting, were there torture types of wounds, was there a coup de grâce, etc…?

And then the FBI behavioralists study crimes and specifically look for evidence of organization/disorganization.

IMO, the way and method these murders occurred tell the analysts everything they need to know about this killer both in terms of his motivation(s) and his reasoning.

There are so many ways in which to kill Simone if you want to and some killers are averse to anything “close-up” and use other means like setting a fire or poison, or even a gun at further range so they don’t always have to see/hear the death.

There are entire studies done on the psychology of murder weapons used and what it means in criminology as well as victimology.

The fact that there are basically two FBI behavioral units suggest to me that they’re rather concerned about the violence that night.

*As an aside, the family may know a little about what the scenes looked like from the surviving roommates and what they saw and if the first responders relayed and or asked questions to those roommates initially.

IMO, and for what it’s worth, I think it’s a Thrill-Killing— which is a serial killer subtype. I’ll link that as well as another informative article.

Organized Versus Disorganized Serial Predators

At the heart of criminal profiling is the idea that serial killer crime scenes can be classified as either "organized" or "disorganized" in presentation.

www.psychologytoday.com

Google Sites: Sign-in

Access Google Sites with a personal Google account or Google Workspace account (for business use).

sites.google.com

 

[george14]

Just thinking outside the box... What if the killer went to the wrong room first, killed the wrong sleeping girl. He figured this out, then found his target. Perhaps he made too much noise. EC and X were still awake. EC went to investigate, was killed. X called to EC, and the killer realized he had to kill X to stop a 911 call. This would mean his target was not 4 people.

This is along the lines of what I think. I don’t think the roommates were involved in anyway, but maybe there was a target and the others were killed “on the way” so to speak.

 

[NatKingCola]

How come no reward for this case? A crap ton of others by now you’d see “reward for x amount…” by now. Just a random thought

I wonder if statistically rewards exponentially increase tip submission. I imagine there may be no shortage of tips at the moment, but that could change? MOO.

 

[kbckcern22]

Thank you. This makes me wonder if one of them texted someone to pick them up while waiting for their order to be ready.

Initially LE stated the girls were brought home by a rideshare company but now it’s a private party. I think a lot of us here believe E&X picked the girls up and they all returned back to the home together. IMO

 

[gliving]

“At 1:56 a.m., a neighbor’s surveillance camera showed Ms. Mogen and Ms. Goncalves returning to the house, Ms. Goncalves’ older sister said.”

This is the quote and all they say about returning home. There isn’t any bombshell evidence that they drop.
———
“Investigators suggested that those two had slept through the killings. The house has six bedrooms, with two on each floor. The police said the victims were found on the second and third floors.
When the two surviving housemates woke up, they called some of their friends to the house, because they believed that one of the women who lived upstairs “had passed out and was not waking up.” After the friends arrived, someone from the group called 911 just before noon, and the police arrived to find the four stabbing victims.”

Quotes from New York Times article: No Arrests, No Suspects: What We Know About the University of Idaho Killings

Not understanding why several friends were called - and showed up - before 911 was called. If they thought it might be an overdose, EMS has narcan.

 

[Shekkiec]

Idaho Murders: What We Know

A man who was studying for a Ph.D. at a nearby university is charged in the stabbing deaths of four University of Idaho undergraduates. Many questions remain.

www.nytimes.com

States the roommates believed one of the women upstairs was the one they thought unconscious

 

[chuckyinvestigates]

Not understanding why several friends were called - and showed up - before 911 was called. If they thought it might be an overdose, EMS has narcan.

The most likely explanation is this: they thought one of their friends was passed out (door locked, no response) and didn't know what to do and friends got there within 10 minutes most likely. Friends gave surviving roommates enough confidence to call the police, and then everything unfolded from there. MOO.

 

[kbckcern22]

So according to a Banfield source, a male in a dark sedan, parked behind the food truck, emerged from the car and yelled to the girls, “c’mon, hurry up”. According to Uber, some days ago (sorry I cannot quickly source the link), it was not an Uber, and according to LE, the girls had not ordered any ride share service that night. This did contradict what K’s sister said early on.

I did notice there is a blue sedan in all of photos and videos taken from the house on news outlets… curious if this was E and X picking the girls up in either of their own vehicles?!!

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

Just curious... what does turn someone into a raging murderer?

It's multifactorial and really depends on the crime they've committed. Those who commit crimes of passion usually have problems with anger and impulse control. They're disinhibited and a number of things cause disinhibition, including drugs and alcohol, but in some cases, organic brain disease can cause it (though those folks may be too impaired to commit murder).

I don't believe this was a crime of passion. I believe this was premediated (MOO) and the perp is likely an antisocial type. We don't really know what causes antisocial personalities, but the thinking is, like most personality disorders, it's a combination of nature and nurture.

 

[JaimeInLA]

Initially LE stated the girls were brought home by a rideshare company but now it’s a private party. I think a lot of us here believe E&X picked the girls up and they all returned back to the home together. IMO

Whoever it was dropped them off and drove away. The car can be seen on the ring camera leaving after they exit the car.

 

[Lillymac]

Circumstantial evidence can be enough to convict; many cases have circumstantial evidence only and are tried as such.

In this case, what would circumstantial evidence be? Example? I wonder also, circumstantial against who?

 

[JaimeInLA]

I did notice there is a blue sedan in all of photos and videos taken from the house on news outlets… curious if this was E and X picking the girls up in either of their own vehicles?!!

Whoever drove them home has been cleared by the police, so I doubt it was either of the deceased victims.

 

[Shekkiec]

Idaho Murders: What We Know

A man who was studying for a Ph.D. at a nearby university is charged in the stabbing deaths of four University of Idaho undergraduates. Many questions remain.

www.nytimes.com

States the roommates believed one of the women upstairs was the one they thought unconscious

Also maybe the dog was barking to go out (if crated) and awakened them at which time they saw her imo

 

[Father Dowling]

I don't know if I agree. these conversations are on one end (the people calling) full of stress and on the other end someone using training and a list of questions they need to get information based on. the discrepancies in these calls are usually not big deal. If the roommate/s called 911, firstly the caller maybe in serious shock that they are at a murder scene, and just relaying there are people unresponsive and the are some signs of violence. the dispatcher would be asking if the they knew if a perp or person who committed the violence's was still there or fled. if the surviving roommates did not know for certain the cops would be dispatched asap, and since cops are on dispersed patrol and ambulances are not, the cops could be way closer, and could get there considerably sooner

This is true, LE role is to secure the scene, EMS role is to administer aid (it is curious though that if it was really “unconscious individual”, why EMS wouldn‘t enter the house as soon as they got there). Given the nature of the scene, it would be difficult to expect LE first on scene to make an assessment that EMS is not required in the house AT ALL (factual given EMS chief statement) given that we know that there were 4 victims (and who knows more, there easily could have been more than 4 at that time as they ostensibly didn‘t actually know the full scene if we believe the concept of an “unconscious individual.”) The only logical conclusion is that LE first on scene KNEW that all 4 victims were deceased beyond an even remotely possible chance they weren’t. If all doors were locked and LE were still securing the scene at that time, one would think EMS would be right behind trying to administer aid, unless LE was clear to EMS “don’t come in” because they knew they were securing a crime scene and not an active need for aid. Which then makes you think, at what point did LE know that it was a crime scene and not active aid? My guess is that the 911 call itself + LE entering made it clear at the onset that this was a crime scene and they did not want it to be disturbed. It would be interesting to see if anyone had police chatter at all from that day, exactly what was relayed throughout LE / EMS.

 

[Diogenetic]

Not familiar with the creative use of a knife, but my dad, back in the day, worked weekends as a butcher at a local meat market - he and my uncles also did a bit of deer hunting each year, thus I’d suggest my dad was fairly knowledgeable about the physical act of butchering. Yet given this, knowing what the act of butchering and rendering entails, I recall always seeing him in bloody butcher smock, his underlying jump suit and boots were pretty beat up and blood stained even given that the sides of beef, pigs, gutted deer, etc were already field dressed… so given his usual blood and gunk-covered work attire, just imagine the hubris involved in the brutal, messy, chaotic and intense physiological and physical moments wherein not just a single person was attacked, subdued and butchered, but 4 such victim… i just cannot understand how there wouldn’t be a broad and overwhelming complex crime scene and that the perpetrator(s) wouldn’t be filthy - covered with the debris and aftermath of the slaughterhouse they created - you’d think someone, somewhere would have noticed such an oddity, or at least the remnants thereof?

Is there evidence whatsoever they were in any way "butchered?"
I am not a hunter but was taught how to use a combat knife in the military. People think using knives lethally is either some choreographed nonsense out of west side story, or some charnal house thing with entrails and bodies cut into pieces.

In reality you are taught to use the knife with stealth and make one or two deep powerful wounds in thorax. That is going to, to a virtual certainty, silence and lethality wound anyone. If they are sleeping somewhat intoxicated and barely waking, the victim could try and block the strike, or grab the knife blade and get defensive wounds. It isn't butching, has nothing to do with hunting, and can be quite silent

 

[Gailgrand]

Can anyone tell me how far the bar M and K were at from the food truck? Is it possible the person(s) in the black sedan, referenced on News Nation, took them to the food truck waited for them to get the food then took them home?

 

[mickey2942]

Born and raised in Idaho and I can say with confidence that I know zero people who carry a knife regularly, outside of a multi-tool

Montana here, it is amazing to me how many kids...yes, kids...have huge knives here. I don't know why. Men too. I went to someone's house the other day, hunting knives were literally all over the floor in the living room, the guys were thinking about trading some with these other guys. It was a serious assortment of knives.

 

[r3d-ros3]

A reminder, per the NYT (paywalled) article:

Investigators have yet to identify a suspect. They have, however, preliminarily ruled out several people, including:

• A man seen with Ms. Goncalves and Ms. Mogen in the video footage at the food truck.
• The man who gave Ms. Goncalves and Ms. Mogen a ride home.
• The two surviving housemates, who were in the house during the attack.
• The friends who were called to the house by the surviving housemates the morning after the attacks.
• <modsnip> the former boyfriend of one victim.
• The victims themselves.

link