ID - DeOrr Kunz Jr, 2, Timber Creek Campground, 10 July 2015 - #1

[pappa rob]

I am a little concerned that the Dad took the baby to the store 40 miles from the campground!! That is a long drive when you are in camping areas. My experience with camping is that a 40 mile drive to a store is way too far. You would be gone for two hours - not something you do when you are trying to get away and enjoy the outdoors. Also, even though the person at the store had the time so far off - it bothers me that the child was described as "bawling and very grubby looking" Would you leave the rest of the fam and take off on a two hour jaunt? Must have wanted something awfully badly to do that.

BBM It was 10 miles, a 40 min. drive because it's a dirt rd.

 

[TTF14]

Someone straighten me out please. Dad and Junior go to the store 10 miles away (correct?), what was the purpose for that trip? This is the same trip where the candy bar was purchased?

If it was me - and I had just arrived that day to camp, I don't think I'd want to drive 40 minutes back to a store to get ________. I'd be more interested in setting up camp and getting organised.

Then Dad left a second time to place the 911 call?

I either need coffee or sleep! TIA for the help getting my facts straight.

I don't think it's odd at all to leave to go to the store right after arriving. Maybe they needed ice for the cooler or any number of things.

 

[IHAVENOCLUE]

Here's a Map for Deorr Kunz, Jr. It's near Stone Reservoir.

JMO....

This map is terrific, Byo!

I wonder if it could be placed in the opening posts of the next thread (number 2) for easy reference?

TIA...:seeya:

 

[IHAVENOCLUE]

I have had the opposite experiences. Some people (and sometimes members of generations younger than I am) will get to a beautiful campground and the first thing they need to do is to go find a store and purchase cigarettes or soda/soft drinks and chips, etc. - especially if no one thought to buy snacks ahead of time. This is especially true of individuals who come for larger towns or cities and are not necessarily used to camping or being outdoors in places where stores are miles away.

Hi Penelope!

Just jumping off your post... As you have introduced the intriguing phenomena of disproportionate numbers of missing persons in national parks/forest areas...

Last night on Coast to Coast the disappearance of DeOrr Kunz was mentioned... And it was announced that David Paulides will be on Coast to Coast with host George Noory this coming Monday night, July 20th...discussing these mysterious disappearances...

For anyone interested... Here is the link:

http://www.coasttocoastam.com/show/2015/07/20

HTH...:seeya:

 

[MyBelle]

It's becoming more common for LE to address rumors and speculation in social media. IIRC Sheriff Davis of the Noah Thomas case in Virginia said a lot of the same things during the initial days of Noah Thomas' disappearance: no suspects, don't believe and feed into what's being said on social media and elsewhere, the parents are 100% cooperative, they are distraught, abduction is a possibility, etc. Though in the Noah Thomas investigation they had already determined the parents had lied and likely already had their suspects, that doesn't mean it's the same situation here; but I wholeheartedly agree with your first sentence!!

I guess I missed the use of the specific phrase, "social media" in the Noah Thomas case. Singling it out specifically is what I found unusual but I also trust his judgment.


JMO

 

[Penelope]

Was the campsite already set up when the parents went for a walk?

Where was DeOrr going to take a nap? In a tent - on a cot by grandpa? In the truck?

IFFFF DeOrr was going to nap in the truck, how far was truck parked from campsite? Could he have gotten out of the truck on the farthest side out of sight of grandpa? (I know its been said that he was there and grandpa looked away and he was gone, but still thinking of possible scenarios)

Good questions. I am also a bit confused as to where Deorr was - was he put down for a nap and then the parents went on a short hike? If this is the case, where was he napping? Was it in a tent or the back of the truck, or in the truck (wherever the blanket was)? In his first book, Paulides talks about a toddler who was sleeping in the back of a truck (I believe it had a cab cover) in a campground in a national park. The truck was a little bit away from where the parents were, and it was near the treelike. The parents heard a scream and by the time they got to the truck, their toddler son was gone and the other child remained in the back of the truck. As far as I remember, neither the child nor his remains were ever located. (I don't have the book with me, so I can't confirm.)

 

[IHAVENOCLUE]

In the unedited video there was off camera mention of the need to discuss the rumors about the "EMT bag" (that's what it sounded like to me). After finding out the occupation of the mom, her statement about not wanting things to get twisted, now makes sense. FB shows her in the CNA occupation.

Yes ... "EMPTY" bag could have been the words used by the person off stage...

But... As we are not 100% certain....

I am not taking "EMT" bag off the table just yet...

all... JMO

 

[MyBelle]

I don't think it's odd at all to leave to go to the store right after arriving. Maybe they needed ice for the cooler or any number of things.

I think it is very odd to pass by a store on the way and then to backtrack.

JMO

 

[IHAVENOCLUE]

I have had the opposite experiences. Some people (and sometimes members of generations younger than I am) will get to a beautiful campground and the first thing they need to do is to go find a store and purchase cigarettes or soda/soft drinks and chips, etc. - especially if no one thought to buy snacks ahead of time. This is especially true of individuals who come for larger towns or cities and are not necessarily used to camping or being outdoors in places where stores are miles away.

Yes... We often get ice right after/before we reach camp since ice melts fairly rapidly... And is needed for various food stuffs... Especially, I would think, for toddlers along for the camping trip...

JMO...

 

[IHAVENOCLUE]

I think it is very odd to pass by a store on the way and then to backtrack.

JMO

I see your point... Since it seems the store was along the route and entrance to the road that leads to the campgrounds...(IIRC)...

My bigger question is the insistence by the dad that the 6:00 p.m. sighting by the store clerk must have been mistaken for the noon/1:00 p.m. sighting...

JMO

 

[MyBelle]

I see your point... Since it seems the store was along the route and entrance to the road that leads to the campgrounds...(IIRC)...

My bigger question is the insistence by the dad that the 6:00 p.m. sighting by the store clerk must have been mistaken for the noon/1:00 p.m. sighting...

JMO

Which is why I'm leaning toward it being a "kidnapping" by someone with ties to the family rather than a stranger abduction.

JMO

 

[ninij9]

Do you know if that was confirmed? I was still left wondering, even after hearing the father comment on that in the unedited video. If it was him, it strikes me odd that the father would buy candy for his toddler 1 hour before their nap time.

Regarding the candy bar at bedtime, unfortunately, my DH has pulled similar boneheaded moves. Never ceases to amaze me.

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[jmcgladr]

I see your point... Since it seems the store was along the route and entrance to the road that leads to the campgrounds...(IIRC)...

My bigger question is the insistence by the dad that the 6:00 p.m. sighting by the store clerk must have been mistaken for the noon/1:00 p.m. sighting...

JMO

That second part seems improbable. It's believable that someone could be off on their time estimation by an hour or so, but not by 5-6 hours. Especially if they are working - most employees have an eye on the clock to see how long until lunch/break/quitting time!

 

[ninij9]

I am a little concerned that the Dad took the baby to the store 40 miles from the campground!! That is a long drive when you are in camping areas. My experience with camping is that a 40 mile drive to a store is way too far. You would be gone for two hours - not something you do when you are trying to get away and enjoy the outdoors. Also, even though the person at the store had the time so far off - it bothers me that the child was described as "bawling and very grubby looking" Would you leave the rest of the fam and take off on a two hour jaunt? Must have wanted something awfully badly to do that.

I don't think he took him for a candy bar. It is just mentioned that they were there earlier, and while they were there he gave Deorr a candy bar. I believe the family was in the car which leads me to believe they were on their way in to campsite and stopped for supplies. JMO


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[ninij9]

Someone straighten me out please. Dad and Junior go to the store 10 miles away (correct?), what was the purpose for that trip? This is the same trip where the candy bar was purchased?

If it was me - and I had just arrived that day to camp, I don't think I'd want to drive 40 minutes back to a store to get ________. I'd be more interested in setting up camp and getting organised.

Then Dad left a second time to place the 911 call?

I either need coffee or sleep! TIA for the help getting my facts straight.

I think they were on the way to the camp grounds and stopped for supplies. That's how I interpreted it.

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[Penelope]

Hi Penelope!

Just jumping off your post... As you have introduced the intriguing phenomena of disproportionate numbers of missing persons in national parks/forest areas...

Last night on Coast to Coast the disappearance of DeOrr Kunz was mentioned... And it was announced that David Paulides will be on Coast to Coast with host George Noory this coming Monday night, July 20th...discussing these mysterious disappearances...

For anyone interested... Here is the link:

http://www.coasttocoastam.com/show/2015/07/20

HTH...:seeya:

Thanks for the info - I will try to tune into it.

I found a website that discusses Paulides' books and the Secret Vanishings in America's National Parks. This may sound a bit "out there" to some of you, especially Paulides' theories of what may be going one, but the facts and statistics regarding the disappearances are there. I am hoping that Deorr does not become one of these statistics, but I fear he already is.

Here is some of what the website shares that may relate to Deorr's disappearance:

Strange Similarities Between Disappearances
Most of those who have disappeared are children ages 20 months to 12 years and the elderly ages 74 to 85. Not one person carrying a firearm(and only one carrying a transponder device) has disappeared. Typically, a search is initiated and run for about ten days then dropped.

Fifty percent of the children who go missing are found dead, and the ones who are found are found miles away from where they disappeared, in areas seemingly impossible for them to get to on their own. The majority of children who have disappeared had dogs with them. In some cases, the dogs returned, but the children never did. Children found alive won’t talk about their experience or say they don’t remember what happened to them. They’re found usually running a low-grade fever and appear traumatized. In all cases, the parents say that the child was right behind them when they disappeared. Usually, the children are wearing bright, colorful clothing when they disappear, and even if they are found miles away without the shoes they were wearing, their feet are not scratched or bruised.

In 98 to 99 percent of the cases, tracking dogs are unable to find a scent or simply refuse to track.

Almost 98 percent of the disappearances occur in the afternoon. Searchers have been known to cover an area over 100 times, only to later find the person, alive or dead in the same area they searched before.

However, the article does give the following statistic: "Fact: In 95% of ALL missing children cases they are eventually found no further than 2.8 miles away from where they disappeared."

Some information about specific cases:

- In the Rocky Mountain National Park in 1938 a husband and wife hiked high into the park and sat down to rest. Looking up high above them on a cliff in an area called The Devil’s Nest, they spotted a small boy all alone. Thinking the foolish parents were nearby, the couple moved on and later drove home. As they arrived in the valley below where they had hiked they saw as many as 2500 people mulling about, but didn’t stop to ask what was going on. The next morning they saw a photo of the missing child in the newspaper, and recognizing him as the child they had seen, they drove back to the park to tell the searchers but the young boy was never found.

- A two year-old boy was visiting his grandparents in Ritter, Oregon in 1952 when he disappeared. He was found unconscious 19 hours later in a frozen creek bed. To arrive there, the small toddler would have had to run non-stop 12 miles across two mountain peaks in those 19 hours, quite impossible considering his age and size.

- The FBI refused to give Paulides any information on the disappearance of another small two year-old boy who disappeared in Yosemite in 1957. In that case the boy simply vanished as he walked around the perimeter of his family’s camp site. Bloodhounds and hundreds of people searched for him. He apparently climbed 3000 feet straight up a mountain. He was found dehydrated and suffering from exposure with a tee shirt, no pants, one sock and no shoes.

 

[ninij9]

While sitting here this morning trying to pry my eyes open with some Folgers coffee, I thought I would sit here and come up with some possible scenarios on what may have happened to this little boy and where he could be.

I'm going to stay away from the wild animal theory and the abduction theories. First of all, predator type animals don't usually hang around areas with a noisy human presence. Secondly, the roads in and out of there are gravel. Nobody "sneaks" around on gravel roads, you can usually hear a vehicle coming down one of them for a 1/4 mile before you see it. The family reported not seeing or hearing any other vehicles during this event, nor did they see anyone walking or hiking near their camp.

Now.....where did he go ? He definitely walked off for a ways during the timespan that his parents were off exploring, most likely out of earshot, but not necessarily. His parents stressed that he was "almost" three, which means he's pretty mobile to me and can move at a pretty good rate if he wanted to. At three years old, he would still be pretty small and close to the ground, so what does that leave us with ?

A) He got up under some shrubbery or bushes and got himself snakebit. Rattlesnake, water moccasin, coral snake being the most likely culprits. The poison could have taken effect within minutes in a little guy that size, depending on where the bite occurred.

B) He found the home or den of a burrowing animal, tried to crawl down inside of it and got himself wedged and stuck underground or partially underground.

C) He tried to climb up or down some kind of cliff or embankment, fell and knocked himself unconscious, maybe fatally. A fall from any height could prove to be fatal, depending on how one landed. People have died falling off of step ladders.

D) He tried to take a shortcut through some thick shrubbery or bushes, and got his foot wedged or stuck to where he became immobile. The problem with this theory is that he would still be able to cry for help, unless of course he somehow got turned upside down or was impaled in some way by the branches.

E) He climbed up a tree and.........see (D) ....... Searchers, look UP !

F) He went down by the creek and fell in headfirst. (Yeah, yeah....I know.....SEARCH IT AGAIN.)
The entire length of the creek needs to be searched, he could be wedged under something such
as a large rock or a submerged log. He could be trapped in an underwater void or wallowed out pocket not visible from the surface.

G.) He wandered off down to the reservoir........ enough said.

H) He started walking down the same gravel road they came in on, got well out of earshot, wandered off out into the surrounding foliage, maybe he saw some rocks he wanted to climb, then .......(See A thru E above.)


I think he is still in the general area, but there is a good chance he may have gotten further away than they are anticipating. The clothes he was wearing are going to be a hinderance because he will easily blend in with the surrounding terrain and may not be recognizable as a human even from a short distance, such as 20-30 yards. I think the highest likelihood is that he crawled down UNDER something and became wedged or stuck, possibly even a void or crevice between two rocks. His cries for help would not be heard if he was headfirst down in a hole, nor would he be visible to searchers. If it was a sudden or catastrophic event, there may have been no cries for help.

Keep searching, he's right there somewhere. I'll keep my cynicism to a minimum, but I remember a few quotes in the media lately that sounded something like this, "Well, we searched that area three or four times already.....I don't know how we could have missed him"...........uh-huh.

Thank you! Wonderful, sensible post. For some reason the facts keep getting blurred in this case. Been like a giant game of telephone, lol.
I think I'm steering toward option F. When I saw the creeks proximity to camp, PLUS the steep banks my heart skipped some beats. Yes search it again. And again. And again. Only thing that I don't like in this case, which I've said from the beginning is WHO is Grandpa's friend? Why the vagueness? Where was he when this occurred? The whole who was where in the campsite has not been presented to us, the public, why?


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[Mountaingazer]

Yes ... "EMPTY" bag could have been the words used by the person off stage...

But... As we are not 100% certain....

I am not taking "EMT" bag off the table just yet...

all... JMO

I still think it was emt bag lol. I will have to go back and re-listen but one of the times she definitely enunciated the eee in a way that you just wouldn't if you are saying empty.

 

[teeandcee]

I just find it highly unusual that they would bring in cadaver dogs that specialized in the detection of cremated remains. IOW, a regular cadaver dog searching specifically for human remains as they are trained to do would not be confused by cremains any more than they would be confused by a hunk of cheese or the scent of a sock belonging to a hobo. There's a whole world out there that a regularly trained cadaver dog will ignore in its quest for the scent of a deceased person.

Hope that makes sense.

Ahh, ok, I see what you're saying. I don't think they brought in special cremation dogs, but yes, good point about the regular cadaver dogs not getting confused. Makes sense!

 

[Snoopster]

Here is a slightly "tilted" view of the camp area to give a sense of terrain.

https://www.google.ca/maps/place/Timber+Creek+Campground/@44.5859431,-113.4649946,336a,20y,180h,41.16t/data=!3m1!1e3!4m2!3m1!1s0x5357b2face15292b:0x50f57ef867884c6

(I'm not sure how well this link will work for those of you on mobile. When I checked the link on my mobile the map wasn't tilted anymore.)

I'm guessing that the family was camped near where the truck is on google earth view as you can see the picnic table and campfire ring beside it. The creek is just on the other side of the truck. The reservoir is in the direction of the back of the truck.

Here's an even more tilted, longer range view, which provides perspective as to how much higher the reservoir is than the camping area as well as the relative positioning/sight line of the road above (and across the creek) where they were camping .

https://www.google.ca/maps/place/Timber+Creek+Campground/@44.5939947,-113.4663488,284a,20y,180h,82.21t/data=!3m1!1e3!4m2!3m1!1s0x5357b2face15292b:0x50f57ef867884c6

As others have said, I'm curious about the camping 'arrangements'. If they had tents...wouldn't the tents still be there for investigation reasons and wouldn't comments have been made about who was where (including the friend). Would they have had enough sleeping space for 4 adults and a toddler if they were sleeping in the truck(s)?
:thinking: