ID - DeOrr Kunz Jr, 2, Timber Creek Campground, 10 July 2015 - #11

[kammiemc]

And then again, I live in Los Angeles and have cougars in my neighborhood!

I know, I lived in Marine County, CA and once saw a couple sitting out on Mt. Tam. There are a lot there as well that are spotted!


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[DexterMorgan]

This is probably not as helpful as you might wish, but for what it's worth, in that General region, two hours north where my fam lives, mountain lions are rare sightings and attacks, but they do occur and it wasn't that many years ago that an elementary school class was walking-within city limits on a trail and a mountain lion attacked one of the kids. My brother also says he was stalked by one while fishing kinda sorta near there at a very remote stream. There are warnings about how to respond if you see one at trail heads, etc., but you can camp and hike those mountains for your whole life and not see one. See, totally unhelpful.


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But wouldn't a big cat ripp off the boots to get to the flesh while leaving certain articles behind. I don't see a lion eating and digesting a boot.

So if a lion is involved. Where is the shredded clothing articles. A lion will not carry his prey for 5 miles. Especially if he is the only lion there.

 

[ILOKAL]

This is probably not as helpful as you might wish, but for what it's worth, in that General region, two hours north where my fam lives, mountain lions are rare sightings and attacks, but they do occur and it wasn't that many years ago that an elementary school class was walking-within city limits on a trail and a mountain lion attacked one of the kids. My brother also says he was stalked by one while fishing kinda sorta near there at a very remote stream. There are warnings about how to respond if you see one at trail heads, etc., but you can camp and hike those mountains for your whole life and not see one. See, totally unhelpful.


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Of course they are seldom seen. They are stealth and are rarely seen. Many campers and hikers and campers are shocked to find a mountain lion watching themin their family photos. And it doesn't matter WHERE the mountain lions are, mountains, valleys, desert, swamp - their behavior is the same.

 

[Hoosier952]

So did Sr. mention this black jeep before or after the mystery woman? Was that ever discussed or figured out? I just browsed through the pages, so I may have missed it. To me, seeing wto black jeeps with 50 year old men looking at kids wouldn't be a super rare occurrence. But if Sr. and Anonymous could both produce a similar looking sketch, I might be more willing to take that tip seriously. Right now, it just seems a little too convenient.

I still don't think IR is involved.

I agree that the PI's thrown GGP under the bus. Now he's a neglectful axe murderer. *sigh*

Question- If you hire a PI or a PI offers to take on your case, and said PI is using SM or news outlets, do you have any control over what the PI says publicly?

 

[ILOKAL]

And then again, I live in Los Angeles and have cougars in my neighborhood!

Ain't that the truth!

 

[pepelepolecat]

So did Sr. mention this black jeep before or after the mystery woman? Was that ever discussed or figured out? I just browsed through the pages, so I may have missed it. To me, seeing wto black jeeps with 50 year old men looking at kids wouldn't be a super rare occurrence. But if Sr. and Anonymous could both produce a similar looking sketch, I might be more willing to take that tip seriously. Right now, it just seems a little too convenient.

I still don't think IR is involved.

I agree that the PI's thrown GGP under the bus. Now he's a neglectful axe murderer. *sigh*

Question- If you hire a PI or a PI offers to take on your case, and said PI is using SM or news outlets, do you have any control over what the PI says publicly?

Well, for what it's worth, my understanding is that the PI is volunteering rather than being hired. So they (the parents) may not feel they have much control over what he says. They may also hesitate to interfere with him/his actions for fear of losing his support and assistance.

(speculation and my opinion only)

 

[DexterMorgan]

Well mountain lions have to drink water. So i would assume that any in the area will travel down to the water on occasion. But broad daylight with other campers and fishermen around; Doesn't seem probable for a big cat to risk.

 

[ILOKAL]

But wouldn't a big cat ripp off the boots to get to the flesh while leaving certain articles behind. I don't see a lion eating and digesting a boot.

So if a lion is involved. Where is the shredded clothing articles. A lion will not carry his prey for 5 miles. Especially if he is the only lion there.

He is ALWAYS alone. These are solitary animals. These are not African lions. They hunt alone. They live alone. They mate during an approximate 8-day window. The mother lives with her cubs and as they get older she hunts with them. Males are kicked out between 12-18 of age and females at about two years.

They will not "undress" their prey. They will shred boots and clothing along with the meat and it will be consumed all together and often shreds from such items are found at necropsy. They will not eat whole boots and clothing if that's what you mean.

Also, if the lion does not consume all of the prey at once, he will often move it from place to place to hide it from other animals.

Lions have been known to carry smaller prey for miles.

 

[kammiemc]

But wouldn't a big cat ripp off the boots to get to the flesh while leaving certain articles behind. I don't see a lion eating and digesting a boot.

So if a lion is involved. Where is the shredded clothing articles. A lion will not carry his prey for 5 miles. Especially if he is the only lion there.

I think that's probably why the sheriff is having trouble thinking of that as a likely scenario. It sounds like the search team was stellar. If this is their wheelhouse (assuming it is) they probably weighed in on the likeliness of that scenario based on no stuff anywhere to be found. For some reason I still think there is a sliver of a chance of it, but I think that is less based on smart logic and more just because I am at a total loss!


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[kammiemc]

Well, for what it's worth, my understanding is that the PI is volunteering rather than being hired. So they (the parents) may not feel they have much control over what he says. They may also hesitate to interfere with him/his actions for fear of losing his support and assistance.

(speculation and my opinion only)

Good point!


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[ILOKAL]

Well mountain lions have to drink water. So i would assume that any in the area will travel down to the water on occasion. But broad daylight with other campers and fishermen around; Doesn't seem probable for a big cat to risk.

Yes, they come to drink water and so do their prey. In the forest, they are the apex animal. Sometimes a cougar might be killed y a wolf but that's usually a sick or old lion. They are no more afraid of humans than they are of other animals. They weigh the risks of attack and are known to go after the smallest where attacks on humans are involved.

 

[kammiemc]

So did Sr. mention this black jeep before or after the mystery woman? Was that ever discussed or figured out? I just browsed through the pages, so I may have missed it. To me, seeing wto black jeeps with 50 year old men looking at kids wouldn't be a super rare occurrence. But if Sr. and Anonymous could both produce a similar looking sketch, I might be more willing to take that tip seriously. Right now, it just seems a little too convenient.

I still don't think IR is involved.

I agree that the PI's thrown GGP under the bus. Now he's a neglectful axe murderer. *sigh*

Question- If you hire a PI or a PI offers to take on your case, and said PI is using SM or news outlets, do you have any control over what the PI says publicly?

DK did not mention seeing the Rubicon in connection to the staring man who was watching the toddler eat fries in Leadore until after the woman in Swan Valley called the PI's tip line to say she saw a staring man driving a Rubicon.

Then PI said he called DK and asked DK if he remembered seeing any cars in the parking lot in Leadore at the time of the fries/staring incident, and the PI said DK answered that he had seen a Rubicon and described in almost e act detail as the Swan Valley lady.

What surprises me about this is that since this staring man at the fries place was the only lead the PI had so far as a possible abductor (important enough that he announced it publicly), wouldn't he have thought to ask the parents earlier about any cars in the parking lot (like perhaps when he was first told about the incident). Wouldn't he have wanted a vehicle description? And wouldn't the parents have answered at that point? Something about that is a little off to me.


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[VLM]

I've not done any experiments of this sort, but I can tell you that more than once we picked a kid up out of his shoes when my kids were toddlers, lol. It didn't even have to be too-big shoes but just shoes that didn't tie or otherwise secure to their feet (like crocs or slip-ons). But of course that's just my own experience and not necessarily applicable to anyone else's experience (neither does my experience negate theirs nor theirs mine).

I have been following/lurking from the begining, but this is my first post. I live just a few hours from Leadore, in MT and we camp in remote locations with our children, so this case struck close to home.

The oversized boots have been a problem IMO because I don't believe they would have stayed on the baby's feet. My daughter had a favorite pair of boots that fit the same way Deorrs have been described. She often walked out of them and if running they would fly off her feet. When she fell asleep in her car seat and we carried her into the house, unless we made a conscious effort to collect the boots, they never made it in with her. They had either slipped off in the car or once we picked her up. based on the description given, in the case of a mountain lion attack, I don't understand why the boots have not been found.

As for mountain lions, they are in the area. We camped, on fathers day weekend, at a site about 100 miles from Timber Creek, and I was informed by someone who lived near our campsite to be aware because there had been several big cat sightings.

Sorry I know this is long, but lastly there was discussion of why one would question if JM and DS were up to something other than "exploring". IMO and JMO I think it is because of the lack of exploring details. DS was quite descriptive about SAR and the volunteer search, but simply stated he and JM had been exploring. IMO I had expected more details, such as...we wanted to check out a trail that parralleled the creek but weren't sure it'd be safe for the baby so we left him at the campsite with GGP, JMO.

 

[Cardinal47]

So did Sr. mention this black jeep before or after the mystery woman? Was that ever discussed or figured out? I just browsed through the pages, so I may have missed it. To me, seeing wto black jeeps with 50 year old men looking at kids wouldn't be a super rare occurrence. But if Sr. and Anonymous could both produce a similar looking sketch, I might be more willing to take that tip seriously. Right now, it just seems a little too convenient.

I still don't think IR is involved.

I agree that the PI's thrown GGP under the bus. Now he's a neglectful axe murderer. *sigh*

Question- If you hire a PI or a PI offers to take on your case, and said PI is using SM or news outlets, do you have any control over what the PI says publicly?

Seems to me Jessica mentioned a leering man and a pick up truck a while into the investigation. I think they all remembered about a new Jeep just recently when asked mainly because a woman said a man in a new black Jeep had been staring at her children. Per the PI's tip.

She didn't think to get a license plate number or to take a picture with her phone if she had one. Sigh...

I might be mixed up in all of this because to say the least it's confusing. Kind of like that old slight of hand trick. Remember?

Further information: Close-up magic

Sleight of hand is often used in close-up magic, where the sleights are performed with the audience close to the magician, usually in physical contact or within three to four meters.[3] This close contact eliminate theories of fake audience members and the use of gimmicks.[3] It makes use of everyday items as props, such as cards, coins, rubber bands, paper, phones and even saltshakers.[3] A well-performed sleight looks like an ordinary, natural and completely innocent gesture, change in hand-position or body posture.[4] In addition to manual dexterity, sleight of hand in close-up magic depends on the use of psychology, timing, misdirection, and natural choreography in accomplishing a magical effect.[4]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sleight_of_hand

 

[kammiemc]

I have been following/lurking from the begining, but this is my first post. I live just a few hours from Leadore, in MT and we camp in remote locations with our children, so this case struck close to home.

The oversized boots have been a problem IMO because I don't believe they would have stayed on the baby's feet. My daughter had a favorite pair of boots that fit the same way Deorrs have been described. She often walked out of them and if running they would fly off her feet. When she fell asleep in her car seat and we carried her into the house, unless we made a conscious effort to collect the boots, they never made it in with her. They had either slipped off in the car or once we picked her up. based on the description given, in the case of a mountain lion attack, I don't understand why the boots have not been found.

As for mountain lions, they are in the area. We camped, on fathers day weekend, at a site about 100 miles from Timber Creek, and I was informed by someone who lived near our campsite to be aware because there had been several big cat sightings.

Sorry I know this is long, but lastly there was discussion of why one would question if JM and DS were up to something other than "exploring". IMO and JMO I think it is because of the lack of exploring details. DS was quite descriptive about SAR and the volunteer search, but simply stated he and JM had been exploring. IMO I had expected more details, such as...we wanted to check out a trail that parralleled the creek but weren't sure it'd be safe for the baby so we left him at the campsite with GGP, JMO.

Great post! My family lives in Corvallis, an hour south of Missoula. I've spent a lot of time hiking those mountains on the ID/MT border. And I always think about mountain lions. What a beautiful part of the country. I love MT! (OT, I know.)


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[TheTruthWillOut]

described in almost exact detail as the Swan Valley lady

That is where it loses credibility for me. What are the chances two independent people would both use the words "very expensive looking" to describe a black Jeep.

At best this story as told by Frank Vilt is embellishment IMO.

 

[ILOKAL]

I have been following/lurking from the begining, but this is my first post. I live just a few hours from Leadore, in MT and we camp in remote locations with our children, so this case struck close to home.

The oversized boots have been a problem IMO because I don't believe they would have stayed on the baby's feet. My daughter had a favorite pair of boots that fit the same way Deorrs have been described. She often walked out of them and if running they would fly off her feet. When she fell asleep in her car seat and we carried her into the house, unless we made a conscious effort to collect the boots, they never made it in with her. They had either slipped off in the car or once we picked her up. based on the description given, in the case of a mountain lion attack, I don't understand why the boots have not been found.

As for mountain lions, they are in the area. We camped, on fathers day weekend, at a site about 100 miles from Timber Creek, and I was informed by someone who lived near our campsite to be aware because there had been several big cat sightings.

Sorry I know this is long, but lastly there was discussion of why one would question if JM and DS were up to something other than "exploring". IMO and JMO I think it is because of the lack of exploring details. DS was quite descriptive about SAR and the volunteer search, but simply stated he and JM had been exploring. IMO I had expected more details, such as...we wanted to check out a trail that parralleled the creek but weren't sure it'd be safe for the baby so we left him at the campsite with GGP, JMO.

What size were your child's boots when they kept falling off her feet? Were they her normal size? How much bigger than her normal size? What was the reason you bought them so big (if you did)?

Apparently the parents have stated that they went exploring for a good place to fish. DK said they found some cute minnows that he knew little Deorr would love and that's when they headed back to the campsite to get him. Not sure how much more detail you think they should have given.

Welcome to WS!

 

[ILOKAL]

That is where it loses credibility for me. What are the chances two independent people would both use the words "very expensive looking" to describe a black Jeep.

At best this story as told by Frank Vilt is embellishment IMO.

I don't know about embellishment but I DO think that was Vilt's description to get across to the listeners that both couples seemed to have seen what may have been the same car. When certain other statements made have come into question, sometimes the poster who questioned it has gone directly to the source for clarification. Just a thought.

 

[desert-blue]

The smart thing for JM and DK to do would be to lawyer up as well.

jmo.

Lawyering up kind of sends a message that a person is more concerned with protecting himself/herself and his/her "rights" than he/she is about finding the missing child. It's different for IR to lawyer up, IMO. It's not his kid. MOO.

 

[gliving]

PI Vilt is also writing a book about his service as a US Marshall and his work to rescue his own children when they were kidnapped.
Wondering about his motives in helping the Kunz family.

frankviltdotcom don't want to direct link to his website.