ID - DeOrr Kunz Jr, 2, Timber Creek Campground, 10 July 2015 - #18

[persimmon]

I'm new to the forum so please forgive me if I don't do this correctly... I am very familiar with the land in leadore and Lemhi county. Unless the shovel comes back with blood or other physical evidence here are my thoughts. The land in Lemhi County is extremely dry and trying to dig a grave would be very difficult if to bury a body deep enough dogs couldn't track it. Not saying that the grave is outside the search area, but with Vernal driving to get cell service it would be risky to take the body and try to bury it in another location due to the difficulty of the soil being extremely hard and risking the SAR being there before he returned to campsite. IMO it could have happened the night before and IR doesn't actually remember seeing DeOrz before the Leadore trip to get groceries. I am not so sure I believe IR story and timeline due to his capacity. I'm keeping my reservations about his timeline. Remember, he does have a criminal history that he needs to protect as well.

Grandpa is not in the equation as far as I'm concerned. Too sick and he is just along for the fun of a camping trip. They probably hid him from the details and personally GGP was probably not well enough to pay extremely close attention to intricate details.

My theory as strange at is seems, unless physical evidence on shovel shows something different, Leadore grocery trip was stagged......Transfer Deorr to a "buyer" ( hate that word), parents are paid cash....stage missing toddler in wilderness to clear their name from family and friend, cash is stashed until heat from LE goes away.....Billboards are put up with abduction scenario, incase toddler appears somewhere else and parents can go back onto the abduction theory to clear their names. IMO

Gladly take thoughts on this. Also, in regards to the dogs.....winds in Idaho are very unpredictable and with Deorr being placed at the campsite the night before of course they are gonna know his scent....but to actually follow the scent to a specific site would be nearly impossible IMO if the winds were blowing the least little trace. Plus if there was any afternoon thunder showers on any one of these days.....which is likely in this region wouldn't that also diminish the dogs finding a scent?

(modsnip)

I'm assuming when they searched DK JM place of residence they likely searched their electronic devices. We know their phones are being analyzed at the very least. In light of this, we know that their web presence would also be analyzed due to the nature of smart phones connecting everything together. It would seem any communication along those lines would have been discovered.

These do not seem like sophisticated people. I would think it would take a level of criminal sophistication to arrange such a deal. Where would one even begin? I find this scenario to be unlikely...but I do agree that burying a body in dry soil would prove challenging and i would think that disturbed land would be noticed by drones or searchers.

Just my opinion.

 

[carbuff]

If DK was going into bear's dens looking for clues, I rather suspect we can guarantee that's not where DeOrr is.

 

[OakingtonAve]

He probably WAS told to stop driving...then forgot that he'd been told....

Sorry - just thought we could all do with a laugh

 

[white rabbit]

I completely agree, redlandb...have no idea his condition but IMO grandpa smoked too much and thus totes an oxygen tank just like anyone else in a grocery store. if he's capable of driving a suburban into complete wilderness...well...

anyway, from the ws interview:

26:37
TG: Did the four adults arrive at the same time at the camping ground on Thursday? How many cars were used and what cars? Do you have …do you know the make and model of these cars?

26:48
SB: I know one was a Suburban and one was a pickup. The Suburban was pulling a camping trailer that was driven by Grandpa, and Isaac rode with Grandpa. The pickup truck belongs to Vernal—Vernal Deorr, and his wife & child rode with him, and those were the two vehicles at the scene and one camping trailer.

note the sheriff never answered tricia's question about when all five (JM, DK, IR, RW, DKbaby) arrived. he completely skated it. but does anyone else find it absurdly odd that two parents and a baby are sleeping in the flat bed of a pickup truck whilst grandpa has the trailer to himself (I've seen pictures on social media, unable to link, not large and very old) and IR is in a tent? talk about an unscheduled trip. get my point?

18:41
SB: You know one was in a camp trailer, one was in a tent, and the family was in the back of a motor vehicle, so…You know I’ve seen people camp like that, so that didn’t distress me.

 

[ILOKAL]

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...Timelines-and-Maps-**NO-DISCUSSION-quot/page4

Thanks Blue, I thought I had read an acknowledge that Reinwand did, indeed, say he saw little DeOrr when the family returned from the store. Apparently, according to what Bowerman said, Reinwand also saw DeOrr just before he left with the parents to go fishing. AND, it seems pretty clear he witnessed the parents actually leaving DeOrr with GGPA.

 

[Hatfield]

From Vilt's Sept 2015 radio interview:



http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...Timelines-and-Maps-**NO-DISCUSSION-quot/page3

Well! Fancy that! The lady refused to be identified in any way, she happened to be from Idaho Falls, and according to Vilt, she and Vernal used almost exactly the same words to describe the vehicle... Anyone else think this was a set up by the parents?

This maybe the best circumstantial evidence yet.

"4 little blonde boys hiking in Palisades Campground Area"

Who goes hiking with 4 little boys in the first place?
Camping - YES
But hiking? - NO

And unless you are a car buff I dont think you would be able
to describe it as a "Rubicon".
Jeep - YES
Rubicon matching perfectly to witness - NO

New or Newer looking - YES
"Expensive looking" matching perfectly to witness - NO

 

[ReadySet]

I have said it before, and I will say it again, I think people give way too much credit to LE. Folks here seem to assume that they plan out every word that they use or that every statement must mean something. I don't think that is the case at all, especially with smaller, local agencies. These guys do not have specialized training in communication and they make mistakes all the time.

Interesting, I had been thinking the opposite. JMO, when LE does interviews, pressers, etc., it is part of the investigative process. I think their words are chosen carefully. And, SB has been around a long time. We don't have any way of knowing whether or not he has specialized training in communication. I don't think his casual, down-home speaking demeanor should be mistaken for lack of skill. JMO

 

[persimmon]

I completely agree, redlandb...have no idea his condition but IMO grandpa smoked too much and thus totes an oxygen tank just like anyone else in a grocery store. if he's capable of driving a suburban into complete wilderness...well...

anyway, from the ws interview:

26:37
TG: Did the four adults arrive at the same time at the camping ground on Thursday? How many cars were used and what cars? Do you have …do you know the make and model of these cars?

26:48
SB: I know one was a Suburban and one was a pickup. The Suburban was pulling a camping trailer that was driven by Grandpa, and Isaac rode with Grandpa. The pickup truck belongs to Vernal—Vernal Deorr, and his wife & child rode with him, and those were the two vehicles at the scene and one camping trailer.

note the sheriff never answered tricia's question about when all five (JM, DK, IR, RW, DKbaby) arrived. he completely skated it. but does anyone else find it absurdly odd that two parents and a baby are sleeping in the flat bed of a pickup truck whilst grandpa has the trailer to himself (I've seen pictures on social media, unable to link, not large and very old) and IR is in a tent? talk about an unscheduled trip. get my point?

18:41
SB: You know one was in a camp trailer, one was in a tent, and the family was in the back of a motor vehicle, so…You know I’ve seen people camp like that, so that didn’t distress me.

I recall from past interviews that DK, JM, and DeOrr were sleeping in Grandpa's Suburban and not DK's truck. Still, it struck me as odd especially since kids would normally want to sleep in the camper/trailer imo. <modsnip>

 

[white rabbit]

completely (and very respectfully) disagree, ilokal...great-grandpa has yet to say anything and IR never said he was off fishing. neither has said diddly about what they were doing on july 10th. reporters have...and their information is third-hand at best.

no matter what VDK and JM say, I don't believe they took a walk to view minnows in a river after IMHO asking two <modsnip> to watch their baby. IMO that was a story, a fairy tale, at best. JMO but this little angel was long gone before their "walk in the woods".

ugh I could vomit typing this...

 

[bluesneakers]

completely (and very respectfully) disagree, ilokal...great-grandpa has yet to say anything and IR never said he was off fishing. neither has said diddly about what they were doing on july 10th. reporters have...and their information is third-hand at best.

no matter what VDK and JM say, I don't believe they took a walk to view minnows in a river after IMHO asking two <modsnip> to watch their baby. IMO that was a story, a fairy tale, at best. JMO but this little angel was long gone before their "walk in the woods".

ugh I could vomit typing this...

You don't believe what the sheriff says?

 

[persimmon]

This maybe the best circumstantial evidence yet.

"4 little blonde boys hiking in Palisades Campground Area"

Who goes hiking with 4 little boys in the first place?
Camping - YES
But hiking? - NO

And unless you are a car buff I dont think you would be able
to describe it as a "Rubicon".
Jeep - YES
Rubicon matching perfectly to witness - NO

New or Newer looking - YES
"Expensive looking" matching perfectly to witness - NO

I agee completely. Personally, I have no idea what a Rubicon is....and the chances of two people using the exact same language to describe a car is highly unlikely. Unless it was more along the lines of "a black two door..." Additionally, they also described the man's behavior the same using the same term. Seems like an obvious ruse. Too obvious in fact. This is a point worth noting and one I hope investigators have analyzed. Seems they were using some odd stereotype to conjure up this image....something they saw in a movie perhaps.

 

[white rabbit]

nope. I don't believe any one of them.

I've been camping. I almost sat on a porcupine once in a port-a-potty (not the ones you use at a tailgate, the real deal fold-up ones with disposable garbage bags).

never once did we sleep in a car though. you go camping, you pitch a tent.

<modsnip>

 

[Aunt_Tulip]

nope. I don't believe any one of them.

I've been camping. I almost sat on a porcupine once in a port-a-potty (not the ones you use at a tailgate, the real deal fold-up ones with disposable garbage bags).

never once did we sleep in a car though. you go camping, you pitch a tent.

<modsnip>

I know people that camp sleeping in the back of their trucks if it has a canopy or shell, but I really want to hear more about your near miss with the porcupine!

 

[ILOKAL]

I completely agree, redlandb...have no idea his condition but IMO grandpa smoked too much and thus totes an oxygen tank just like anyone else in a grocery store. if he's capable of driving a suburban into complete wilderness...well...

anyway, from the ws interview:

26:37
TG: Did the four adults arrive at the same time at the camping ground on Thursday? How many cars were used and what cars? Do you have &#8230;do you know the make and model of these cars?

26:48
SB: I know one was a Suburban and one was a pickup. The Suburban was pulling a camping trailer that was driven by Grandpa, and Isaac rode with Grandpa. The pickup truck belongs to Vernal&#8212;Vernal Deorr, and his wife & child rode with him, and those were the two vehicles at the scene and one camping trailer.

note the sheriff never answered tricia's question about when all five (JM, DK, IR, RW, DKbaby) arrived. he completely skated it. but does anyone else find it absurdly odd that two parents and a baby are sleeping in the flat bed of a pickup truck whilst grandpa has the trailer to himself (I've seen pictures on social media, unable to link, not large and very old) and IR is in a tent? talk about an unscheduled trip. get my point?

18:41
SB: You know one was in a camp trailer, one was in a tent, and the family was in the back of a motor vehicle, so&#8230;You know I&#8217;ve seen people camp like that, so that didn&#8217;t distress me.

He probably didn't skate the question, but rather just forgot to answer. After all,it seems he also forgot the parents aren't married.

As to the sleeping arrangements, there's Reinwand in his tent, GGPA was in a CAMP TRAILER, and the family was in the back of a motor vehicle. It seems many have assumed he meant they slept in the back of the pickup. IMO, they more than likely slept in the back of GGPA's Suburban.

 

[neesaki]

I never thought of that, but I have certainly noticed that they rarely use his name... Personally, I find all the "Lil man!" stuff nauseating.

Plus they never bothered to change the false information that he had blue eyes, and they never publicised his birthmark... They never sought out the national press, and they never bothered to arrange for billboards to be put up.

LOL, I remember getting jumped on by another poster in an early thread here when I questioned that. I really didn't think that much of the use of "lil man" until I heard Vernal try to make it sound like little Deorr was older than his actual age... his "almost three year old" statement had me cringing. It was as though he was trying to convince everyone that it somehow lessened their responsibility. But, it is all just my opinion. I'm not saying that using that term of endearment is a bad thing at all, I was simply looking at it in context of everything else. Anyway, hope I haven't offended anyone. eace:

 

[Hatfield]

I agee completely. Personally, I have no idea what a Rubicon is....and the chances of two people using the exact same language to describe a car is highly unlikely. Unless it was more along the lines of "a black two door..." Additionally, they also described the man's behavior the same using the same term. Seems like an obvious ruse. Too obvious in fact. This is a point worth noting and one I hope investigators have analyzed. Seems they were using some odd stereotype to conjure up this image....something they saw in a movie perhaps.

Totally agree.

I hope LE has thought to try to get phone records from the call to the investigator. If LE can prove the call came from someone's own home then maybe there is some concrete evidence right there of someone deliberately trying to throw off the case.

 

[ILOKAL]

completely (and very respectfully) disagree, ilokal...great-grandpa has yet to say anything and IR never said he was off fishing. neither has said diddly about what they were doing on july 10th. reporters have...and their information is third-hand at best.

no matter what VDK and JM say, I don't believe they took a walk to view minnows in a river after IMHO asking two <modsnip> to watch their baby. IMO that was a story, a fairy tale, at best. JMO but this little angel was long gone before their "walk in the woods".

ugh I could vomit typing this...

That's what BOWERMAN said!

 

[Groundwork]

A couple things from SB's interview struck me as interesting.
SB: "However, the first polygraph indicated that the parents were being less than truthful, and that concerned me, but you know I take polygraphs with a certain grain of salt so… I sent out their interviews to the FBI, their Behavioral Team. They examined them and found multiple inconsistencies, and so we asked them to re-polygraph, and they said they would, and the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th polygraphs, the same conclusion was made by the experts that they are being less than truthful. They know what happened and where Deorr is currently."

They took more than one or two polygraph tests. I'd be willing to bet that they asked them, "Did you hurt your son?" From this, it sounds like the only questions they failed were "Do you know what happened?" and "Do you know where he is?"

Also from SB: "I didn’t want them to think their whole polygraph was deceptive. It wasn’t. They passed portions of it, but the portions on whether they knew where Deorr was or knew what happened to him, they were not being…they were being less than truthful . So that’s why I changed it. I didn’t want them to think…normally you think when someone is deceptive everything they told you is a lie but that’s not the case."

He's really seeming to point towards something by emphasizing exactly which questions they failed on. He's also saying it's possibly "foul play," which makes my heart hurt. I've had a bad vibe from this right from the start, but I still hoped ...

TG: " Deorr couldn’t ask for a better person to be on his side and looking for him. So you’re doing a fantastic job!"

I 100 percent agree. I think SB has been an excellent voice for DeOrr.

I'm way behind and I was not able to listen to the interview (I'm catching snippets through these awesome posts), so this may be itrelevant by now, but...

In the light of day (so to speak), this almost sounds to me like SB could be saying that the parents did not do anything themselves, just that they know *who* did and are helping cover something up. Maybe there is a ploy here to make THEM come forward with information because if they don't, they will be charged.

I cannot figure out, though, who they could/would possibly be covering for. Geesh...just when you think you've crossed something off the list, there it is again.

Again, sorry if this is totally off-topic, already discussed, etc. Heck, maybe by the time I catch up, I'll find out Deorr has been found and is safe with folks who love him.

 

[white rabbit]

lol I still remember the porc's 'face' as I lowered my...fatty part...lol...I was four years old. still terrified of forest creatures.

I just don't believe this child was brought into a remote wilderness to go fishing with <modsnip> adults in the back of a pickup for fun. I just don't. canopy or no canopy. it makes NO sense.

according to IR (whom I actually believe, he was coached by his attorney I have no doubt) baby deorr was "there" (not a quote by him, MOO). and he won't explain it further. JMO but I see no need to ask anything more...i'll wait for the legal beagles to ask the right questions...

 

[neesaki]

Someone could have come forward to say they had seen DeOrr being abused in the past. I got that impression from the sheriff's recent interviews.

I hate to say it, but this case reminds me more of the Caylee Anthony case every day. Dear God, please let me be wrong.

That said, I think it's very possible Deorr wandered off and none of them have a clue what happened to him, maybe they were under the influence of something, IDK.