ID - DeOrr Kunz Jr, 2, Timber Creek Campground, 10 July 2015 - #2

[ClaireNC]

Can anyone please explain this for me? Maybe through a news article, etc. It is my understanding that the parents thought great-grandpa was watching little Deorr and great-grandpa thought little Deorr was with the parents but then the dad said great-grandpa turned his head for a minute and the child vanished?

There have been several versions of the story given. I believe the comment about great-grandpa turning his head for a minute and the child vanishing was made by somebody that was not at the campground that day. Either that, or bad reporting by the media.

 

[Hatfield]

I believe, and I could be wrong, if we take into account only a small percentage of children who go missing each year, without a trace, we might find cougar attacks are more frequent than statistics lead us to believe.

MOO

Good point about. Below is a link of known attacks by cougars on kids.

I think I heard last year that Coyotes even are getting much more frequently spotted in residential areas and have been known to carry off small pets in peoples yards.

The cougars though are what really concern me when in the deep woods. They are very stealthy where a bear I would be much more likely to spot. With a cougar though they would have your neck before you knew it.


[video=youtube;_xr5GInB53U]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_xr5GInB53U[/video]

 

[Marisa714]

The statistics on this wiki page would bear that out: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fatal_cougar_attacks_in_North_America

it breaks out to 4 adult males (18 y.o. +)
and 21 women and children

25 fatal attacks since June of 1890, that is a very low # IMO. Bear attacks are far more frequent than mountain lion attacks, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fatal_bear_attacks_in_North_America. How often do people go hiking or camping and NOT get attacked by a mountain lion? We don't usually hear about mountain lion sightings unless somebody or a pet has been attacked, not to mention mountain lions are frequently aware of your presence even if your unaware of theirs. I still think it's possible DeOrr was attacked by a mountain lion, I don't however believe they are as predatory on humans as many others do. They prefer deer and other small mammals...and really try to avoid people. If DeOrr was attacked by a mountain lion, I think it happened after he wandered away from the campsite; I don't think the Cougar would have come up to camp and snatched him IMOO.

Off topic: I do live in mountain lion country and have been fortunate enough to see a mountain lion in my front yard from inside my house AND catch it on video! We have found half eaten deer carcasses 'buried' around our property (we border BLM) and we continue to hike enjoy the outdoors....just safely ;-)

Informative article,
http://www.mountainjackpot.com/2013/05/07/killer-lions-on-the-prowl-in-ute-pass/
In addition, don’t hike in wild areas alone; never run past or from a cougar, as this may trigger their instinct to chase; never bend down or crouch down–this will make humans look like four-legged prey to some mountain lions and also makes the neck and back of the head vulnerable; during an encounter with a mountain lion, make yourself look larger by opening your jacket, raising your arms and throwing branches and stones without turning away; and try to remain standing to protect your head and neck, if attacked, but fight back with whatever is at hand.

 

[ClaireNC]

It's the great-grandfather and friend. Perhaps they are just too old to be suspects. Or the "friend" is actually a licensed caregiver and unlikely to be involved in a conspiracy.

I always take my dog when I go camping. He wouldn't any help though because he can't even find his toy when I toss it across the room. So it's IF they had a dog, and what kind of breed of dog he is, if he could be any help.

Is there anymore info on the area wildlife? I read a comment about a mountain lion carrying off their prey and burying it for later. Could Deorr have gone off following a bear? OMG Did you see the pictures of one napping in someone's yard yesterday. They are so cute! A little child might not know enough to be afraid of a wolf either.

It is very rare to see bears, wolves and cougars in the vast wilderness of Idaho. The wilderness is so large that there is generally no need for the predators to come near humans. I've spent some time camping and hiking in Idaho and Montana and only once saw a bear at a distance. When I lived in NJ we used to see them in the front yard. Now I live in NC and am more likely to see them here as well.

 

[teeandcee]

Off topic: I do live in mountain lion country and have been fortunate enough to see a mountain lion in my front yard AND catch it on video! We have found half eaten deer carcasses 'buried' around our property (we border BLM) and we continue to hike enjoy the outdoors....just safely ;-)

That must have been awesome!

 

[4senthia]

Reporters do get things wrong. Often enough to be extremely irritating.
They don't always get things wrong however.
When I am faced w/info about cougars, wolves and the like, I click on the links and am often surprised.
Sometimes I might change my mind about a case based on news reports.
I've based almost all of my beliefs on DeOrr's case from the video/interview his parents did and from the Sheriff's official facebook page.
jmo

 

[SleuthMom]

There have been several versions of the story given. I believe the comment about great-grandpa turning his head for a minute and the child vanishing was made by somebody that was not at the campground that day. Either that, or bad reporting by the media.

I just did a little search myself, it was actually the dad himself who made the statement.

[video=youtube;-OPgaX_9v8g]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-OPgaX_9v8g[/video]

 

[Inthedetails]

OT: They're everywhere! Mountain lion possibly roaming Milwaukee:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/ct-milwaukee-lion-report-20150722-story.html

 

[leilarose68]

I would sort the this way:
1. Fell and drowned in the water (creek or reservoir) tied with wandered off and got taken by a large animal (bear, lion, wolf)
2. Wandered off and succumbed to the elements
3. Wandered off and fell into a mineshaft or some kind of hole
4. Any other scenario
5. Stranger abduction (possibility includes Sasquatch)

My reason is that, if I'm reading correctly, scents of the child did not stray far from the campsite, or circled back. I think that can happen if a child is carried off by an animal. Tracking dogs can make mistakes. That can also happen if a child falls into water and gets carried away by the water or submerged.

Also, if a car carried the child off from the campsite, then someone would've heard a vehicle, at the campsite, where the child's scent was last smelled.

I do not believe in family-involved foul play. The parents seem credible and it would be quite a conspiracy for everyone at that campsite to be involved. They don't seem to be questionable people with questionable pasts.

edittt

 

[leilarose68]

Do we know for certain he had them on when he vanished? Wasn't he supposedly about to nap? I dunno, just speculating since we know so little.

Since they're part of his description i imagine he had them on...

edit: well Deorr is described as wearing cowboy boots when he went missing, so I think we can safely assume he had them on.

 

[gitana1]

Good point about. Below is a link of known attacks by cougars on kids.

I think I heard last year that Coyotes even are getting much more frequently spotted in residential areas and have been known to carry off small pets in peoples yards.

The cougars though are what really concern me when in the deep woods. They are very stealthy where a bear I would be much more likely to spot. With a cougar though they would have your neck before you knew it.


[video=youtube;_xr5GInB53U]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_xr5GInB53U[/video]

I know that mountain lions have attacked in my residential area (well in parks surrounded by residential areas). In one, in the 80's, a mountain lion grabbed a six year old girl and mauled her before she was released, while she was walking through Casper's Regional park with her parents. Photos later developed showed the cat stalking the child as the family walked - in the bushes beside them. In another, a woman was attacked and a man eaten in Whiting Ranch which is surrounded on three sides by residential areas.

In another, not too long ago, in LA County, I believe by Griffith Park Observatory, a man camped by himself and slept in sleeping bag. A lion came up and sniffed him and tried to bite his head.

The mountain lions in the zoo at Irvine park are totally fixated and stalk and pace back and forth while staring at any toddler or baby in a stroller that comes near their enclosure. It is obvious they want to eat them. I know that wolves are scared of humans but there have been several cases in Idaho where they will not leave the animals they are stalking despite hunting humans who arrive with guns and dogs, and will keep coming back to the prey even when they are shot at.

Finally, just last May a coyote attacked and bit a toddler at Irvine Park near my home, which is bordered by a toll road, residences and canyons.

Most wild animals shy from humans but small humans are simply prey to them. No different than any small animal. If they are hungry enough, they will track a small child and attack.

The lack of blood droplets though or any torn clothing does point away from such an attack.

 

[leilarose68]

I know that mountain lions have attacked in my residential area (well in parks surrounded by residential areas). In one, in the 80's, a mountain lion grabbed a six year old girl and mauled her before she was released, while she was walking through Casper's Regional park with her parents. Photos later developed showed the cat stalking the child as the family walked - in the bushes beside them. In another, a woman was attacked and a man eaten in Whiting Ranch which is surrounded on three sides by residential areas.

In another, not too long ago, in LA County, I believe by Griffith Park Observatory, a man camped by himself and slept in sleeping bag. A lion came up and sniffed him and tried to bite his head.

The mountain lions in the zoo at Irvine park are totally fixated and stalk and pace back and forth while staring at any toddler or baby in a stroller that comes near their enclosure. It is obvious they want to eat them. I know that wolves are scared of humans but there have been several cases in Idaho where they will not leave the animals they are stalking despite hunting humans who arrive with guns and dogs, and will keep coming back to the prey even when they are shot at.

Finally, just last May a coyote attacked and bit a toddler at Irvine Park near my home, which is bordered by a toll road, residences and canyons.

Most wild animals shy from humans but small humans are simply prey to them. No different than any small animal. If they are hungry enough, they will track a small child and attack.

The lack of blood droplets though or any torn clothing does point away from such an attack.

I know I keep repeating myself, but Deorr was wearing oversized boots and the boots definitely would have fallen and been found if the cougar carried him away. The boots really limit the plausible scenarios

 

[sarx]

It is very rare to see bears, wolves and cougars in the vast wilderness of Idaho. The wilderness is so large that there is generally no need for the predators to come near humans. I've spent some time camping and hiking in Idaho and Montana and only once saw a bear at a distance. When I lived in NJ we used to see them in the front yard. Now I live in NC and am more likely to see them here as well.

In part because in ID they have a shoot first philosophy that I don't think they have about animals in NC. Some of the things people have said to me up there just leaves me shaking my head. It is really a chore to actually get to see wildlife in Idaho.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk

 

[4senthia]

This is what I get Deorr's dad saying (relevant to the question) @the vigil:
"there's not much to be said except one small mistake as a parent...you know..leaving him with an adult that turns his head for a minute...they move.they go.."
jmho

 

[Lizzzard]

You know, in regards to a cougar attack and how rare it is and all, I think it's more likely that a cougar carried him off than a human stranger abduction.

I tend to forget another fact as well, we always think in the known time frame of when he was last seen, until it was noticed he was missing and then figure how far he got in that time. But what we forget is that he could have and probably did survive many hours after he was noticed missing. Each hour becoming more and more lost. He could have been on the move for 3 of 4 hours. He maybe moved for an hour, stopped, cried, napped and took off again. He could be much further away than we think is all I'm trying to say. I still say he's in the creek somewhere though. But I really have dismissed stranger abduction at this juncture.


Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

Since we know there was a wolf den nearby that was searched, but all mountain lion talk here is pure conjecture (ie no actual evidence of big cat activity in the area that we know of), I thought I would check a hunch. After a quick google search, I came up with this:

"Jackson Hole’s mountain lions spend a disproportionate amount of time in parts of their territory that are far from wolves, new research by the Teton Cougar Project shows.
The Kelly research group’s paper “Home range characteristics of a subordinate predator: selection for refugia or hunt opportunity?” was published in the Journal of Zoology in late May.
JHREA - In Story Quarter - 50k
Among other findings the research shows that lions tend to distance themselves from wolves, a competing species that sometimes kills cougars.
“If you look at what’s called the core home range, it tends to be farther from wolves than the rest of their home range,” said Patrick Lendrum, a Cougar Project biologist and the lead author of the study."

http://www.jhnewsandguide.com/news/...cle_22f996aa-4924-53b1-b5aa-06f254ad28df.html


I appreciate LE/SAR's efforts in searching and clearing the water but I feel like if we know anything about disappearances when water is near, we know there really is no such thing as being 100% sure a person (especially a little person ) isn't in there.

At this point, an accidental drowning would probably be the most merciful answer. The alternative in my mind was something less than accidental caused by a non-family member who was around and took advantage of an "opportunity" that presented itself.

MOO is that DeOrr is no longer suffering either way. I just wish his family and the responders could have answers.


ETA: quote from the article

 

[bluesneakers]

A person in my community was killed by a cougar. There were people not far away didn't hear anything. The cougar jumped on her from behind and bit into the back of her neck, killing her instantly.

I'm not saying that's what happened in this case, but I think people are using more imagination than research.

The first mountain lion comment I read here made me immediately think of what my cat looks like when he gets a shrew. I know, the scale is off and it's different in many ways, but cats are alike in many ways and cats of all sizes go for the throat. My cat would do exactly what you just said and it was over in an instant.

 

[teeandcee]

The mountain lions in the zoo at Irvine park are totally fixated and stalk and pace back and forth while staring at any toddler or baby in a stroller that comes near their enclosure. It is obvious they want to eat them.

There are lots of YouTube videos of this behavior as well, with the parents laughing in the background. Despite being safely behind glass, if a predator was hovering above my child looking and acting in such an obviously threatening and predatory manner I'd be unnerved, not amused.

But then a lot of people can't read cats. My mother-in-law thinks a cat "wags" its tail because it's happy. You know, like a dog. :gaah:

 

[slashkiss]

I just can't get on board with a quick silent animal attack that took him away at 2pm. This is just very unlikely. Now if he wandered off and got lost for hours then possibly an animal attack could make more sense but I would think that with everyone out there looking for this little guy he would have responded to the calls if he was able to. My daughter is fiesty and independent but I can remember countless times the look of panic and her screaming "mom" when she would realize she lost sight of me especially in an unfamiliar area. I honestly think that whatever happened to this baby was quick and the creek just makes the most practical sense. Having said that my suspicion would next fall to the last 2 people seen with the child and that isn't his parents; however if the timeline of the parents only being gone for 10 minutes is accurate (which I personally find myself doubting) I just don't see how any person would have the ability to disappear this child so quickly.

 

[takeitfromme412]

This is truly a really sad case

 

[Advocate4]

With respect to the boots DeOrr was apparently wearing, if I recall correctly they were described as "camouflage boots". How large would boots for a toddler be ... meaning, how "tall" -- maybe 6 or 8 inches? Seems to me that even if they fell off his feet, they would be hard to spot whether in the creek or in the woods because they were "camouflage" and likely not very large items.