ID - DeOrr Kunz Jr, 2, Timber Creek Campground, 10 July 2015 - #20

[Niner]

Thank you Bessie for saying you'll ask about getting Klein on the radio show... Since Bessie has followed the case and DeOrr's thread so closely, she will be the perfect person to clear up our confusion. If Klein comes on the show and we are left just as confused afterwards, I will conclude that Klein is definitely confusing us on purpose because he doesn't know as much as he implies.

If he goes on the radio show - ask him for a TIMELINE!!

As this group here would really help him getting a "good" timeline! And WS sleuthers here will have it solved in no time.

Thanks for keeping up with the timeline even if we can't use it yet. That's a job and a half right there!

You're quite welcome! :wave:

 

[Rayemonde]

Sadly, there may not be much left to find now if DeOrr really was left in the wilderness somewhere... There'd have been a lot of animal activity if he was left out in the open.

 

[Hatfield]

I really think the cremains was just coincidental... It's probably a special place for a lot of people, and ashes probably get scattered there regularly. JMO.

I know what you mean but what are the odds that would have occurred on the very day the search party started? And didnt the owner of the bar/restarant say hardly anybody goes up there.

I guess for me when it comes to these cases, I don't like coincidences. It may turn out to be nothing but I am leaving it as something that still needs to be proven that there is no connection whatsoever.

 

[bluesneakers]

I know what you mean but what are the odds that would have occurred on the very day the search party started? And didnt the owner of the bar/restarant say hardly anybody goes up there.

I guess for me when it comes to these cases, I don't like coincidences. It may turn out to be nothing but I am leaving it as something that still needs to be proven that there is no connection whatsoever.

I don't see how they would be able to cremate him before the trip without anyone noticing and I think it would be impossible with just a campfire. Burn someone maybe, but not to the point where only cremains would be left. They would also likely get noticed from anyone nearby.

The optimum temperature range is 1400 degrees to 1800 degrees Fahrenheit for the cremation chamber. How long does it take to cremate a body? Cremating at the optimum temperature (1400-1800 degrees), the average weighted remains takes 2 to 2 1/2 hours.

http://nfda.org/planning-a-funeral/cremation/160.html

 

[bessie]

I'm pretty sure the cremains were dumped on Sunday.

ETA: I can't find where it says Sunday, but I'm sure I've seen that in print somewhere. I did find this.

11:17
SB: Yes! We dove the reservoir at least four days. We put a side-scan sonar in on one day. We also uh flew a helicopter both in daylight and at night with the FLIR to illuminate for body heat, and we found absolutely nothing other than our canines alerted on it but we found that someone had come in behind us and had uh put some human cremains in of a loved one and that kind of threw our dogs off.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...Media-Timelines-and-Maps-**NO-DISCUSSION-quot

Sheriff Bowerman:
“Right! Unbeknownst to us while we were doing our grid search, someone came in and wanted to deposit cremains of a loved one at that site, and I’m assuming it’s a favorite site of their loved one, and without thinking, they deposited cremains, not realizing they were in the middle of a crime scene and what it would do. Within a couple days our dogs were telling us we need to spend more time up at the reservoir, and so we dove it for 2-3 more days and put side-scan sonar, and then we find out from one of our BLM (?) Rangers that they stopped this individual coming out and were informed they had deposited some cremains in the reservoir.”
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...-**NO-DISCUSSION-quot&p=12007596#post12007596

 

[ReadySet]

I don't think that's likely, but I do think it's possible he died near or in the reservoir and then his body was moved... If the dogs kept leading them to the reservoir but the body was gone, how would they know if the dogs were detecting the cremains or not? :thinking:

I've wondered about that too. Since drowning seems the most likely way for a death in that setting, I've wondered if they were at the reservoir together, Deorr was neglected and drowned; they then removed his body from the water, as you said; and desposed of it somewhere. That has been one of my persistent ideas.

 

[bluesneakers]

I've wondered about that too. Since drowning seems the most likely way for a death in that setting, I've wondered if they were at the reservoir together, Deorr was neglected and drowned; they then removed his body from the water, as you said; and desposed of it somewhere. That has been one of my persistent ideas.

When I thought he'd actually gone missing drowning was my theory too, and with two bodies of water nearby it seems obvious, but then it's back to why cover up an accident?

 

[Mountaingazer]

I'm pretty sure the cremains were dumped on Sunday.

ETA: I can't find where it says Sunday, but I'm sure I've seen that in print somewhere. I did find this.

11:17
SB: Yes! We dove the reservoir at least four days. We put a side-scan sonar in on one day. We also uh flew a helicopter both in daylight and at night with the FLIR to illuminate for body heat, and we found absolutely nothing other than our canines alerted on it but we found that someone had come in behind us and had uh put some human cremains in of a loved one and that kind of threw our dogs off.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...Media-Timelines-and-Maps-**NO-DISCUSSION-quot

Sheriff Bowerman:
“Right! Unbeknownst to us while we were doing our grid search, someone came in and wanted to deposit cremains of a loved one at that site, and I’m assuming it’s a favorite site of their loved one, and without thinking, they deposited cremains, not realizing they were in the middle of a crime scene and what it would do. Within a couple days our dogs were telling us we need to spend more time up at the reservoir, and so we dove it for 2-3 more days and put side-scan sonar, and then we find out from one of our BLM (?) Rangers that they stopped this individual coming out and were informed they had deposited some cremains in the reservoir.”
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...-**NO-DISCUSSION-quot&p=12007596#post12007596

I remember it being Sunday as well!

 

[haven71]

MOO but the only 2 reasons I could think of was to cover up internal injuries if an autopsy was done (meaning prior abuse by the family)they would be charged with serious crimes.

The other scenario would be if they were BEYOND negligent. Like his body had been submerged for a lengthy amount of time. Severe negligence there as I'm sure the time of death could be narrowed down. They would be asked how could they possibly not know he was missing for at least as long as his body was submerged in water. What were they all doing at the time?

Hiding his body is a more serious crime of course. I can't think of any cases off the top of my head, but I'm willing to bet that hiding a child's body after an accident isn't that remote of situation. Parents probably panic and do what they can to immediately try to get "rid" of potential problems, then when they don't admit it, they're in even more serious hot water.

JMO

When I thought he'd actually gone missing drowning was my theory too, and with two bodies of water nearby it seems obvious, but then it's back to why cover up an accident?

 

[ReadySet]

When I thought he'd actually gone missing drowning was my theory too, and with two bodies of water nearby it seems obvious, but then it's back to why cover up an accident?

Maybe because if he drowned, it was because of gross negligence on their part, so egregious that they knew they would be prosecuted. I don't know, just an idea.

 

[Paulas88]

Maybe because if he drowned, it was because of gross negligence on their part, so egregious that they knew they would be prosecuted. I don't know, just an idea.

The thing is... There was no hit from the dogs that DeOrr was ever there. I'm really taking that in to account now. Now that we've given the parents every benefit of doubt.

 

[pappa rob]

What does called the tune mean?

From square dancing, someone calls the tune and tells everyone what steps to do..

 

[carbuff]

The thing is... There was no hit from the dogs that DeOrr was ever there. I'm really taking that in to account now. Now that we've given the parents every benefit of doubt.

Was that ever confirmed? I thought SB had been consistently vague about exactly what the dogs found.

 

[KYPastTracker]

Maybe because if he drowned, it was because of gross negligence on their part, so egregious that they knew they would be prosecuted. I don't know, just an idea.

Another crazy idea that probably doesn't make sense, but... What if they got to the campsite Thursday night and the baby was asleep. They all wanted to go back to the Silver Dollar and eat and drink. But nobody wants to babysit and stay behind. So they all decide he'll be okay in the truck while they're gone and they pile into the suburban. They go party at the SD and when they come back, he has gotten out of the truck and is deceased, drowned, or whatever. That would be gross negligence and might explain why they ALL feel responsible and would try to cover it up(or two of the 4 were made to feel that way)......Just a thought...JMO,etc. Feel free to throw tomatoes....

 

[Paulas88]

Was that ever confirmed? I thought SB had been consistently vague about exactly what the dogs found.

Isn't that what Klein said in his Q & A a few days ago? That the dogs hit on absolutely nothing? Correct me if I'm remembering wrong guys.
I'll try looking tomorrow when I can.

 

[neesaki]

When I thought he'd actually gone missing drowning was my theory too, and with two bodies of water nearby it seems obvious, but then it's back to why cover up an accident?

I know, the only thing that would make sense is if there's something else they're trying to cover up. Several options there I suppose.

 

[ReadySet]

Another crazy idea that probably doesn't make sense, but... What if they got to the campsite Thursday night and the baby was asleep. They all wanted to go back to the Silver Dollar and eat and drink. But nobody wants to babysit and stay behind. So they all decide he'll be okay in the truck while they're gone and they pile into the suburban. They go party at the SD and when they come back, he has gotten out of the truck and is deceased, drowned, or whatever. That would be gross negligence and might explain why they ALL feel responsible and would try to cover it up(or two of the 4 were made to feel that way)......Just a thought...JMO,etc. Feel free to throw tomatoes....

I've thought of that, but in my senario they left him in GGP's trailer. They were sure he would stay asleep, or maybe they gave him something to sleep. I don't have any well thought out theories, just parts of ideas. But...would we know if there had been a hit on the trailer? Little ones love to play in the tents, trailers, RVs on camping trips. If Deorr had not been in GGP's trailer, that would give more credence to him never being at the campsite, to me. JMO

 

[bessie]

Was that ever confirmed? I thought SB had been consistently vague about exactly what the dogs found.

He wasn't vague. He said, in so many words, the dogs showed interest once or twice, but it didn't pan out. Whatever got their attention was not relevant to finding DeOrr.

Keep in mind the difference between SB's conversational tone, and Klein's rapid-fire posting style. Lol

 

[white rabbit]

ok a few stupid (probably already covered a gazillion times) questions:

- how could the dogs NOT hit on anything when clearly DK's truck was their normal method of transportation. alive, deceased, or completely absent, that's where his blankie was and that's most likely where normally his scent was present, way prior to the "camping trip". if the dogs didn't hit on THAT (and i too remember someone saying "no trace of him) well what's going on here?

- the "camping trip", as described by SB, puts IR in his car, GGPA in his trailer, and the K's in the bed of the pickup. who goes camping with a toddler to sleep in the bed of a pickup (not judging, asking)? was there a tent??? if not, IMO the K's never planned on "camping" and were there for another reason...

- how hard is it to remember one little blondie in one of the smallest continental U.S. towns? the store clerk obviously didn't see him. RC, well i don't know. maybe one doesn't take note of these things but...if you're in the business of transient (fisherman, hunter, off-roader) clients, normally the proprietor does take note. IMO the reporter that interviewed her was told to edit out any reference to the child. that, or, this is the worst reporting on the planet.

my guess on the last point is the former. any thoughts on the rest???

 

[TeaTime]

How many of these disappearances do we have to discuss before we all realize that no one covers up the accidental death of a toddler by tossing the dead baby away like trash or burying one out in the wild?

How many times have we all discussed that no one lies to LE about a truly missing person, much less a baby?

We do know, however, that parents sell and kill their own children pretty regularly. Not saying DeOrr was sold or even given away, just that parents have done it and then claimed the child wandered away and is lost. Most often the child is the victim of murder by one or both of the parents/guardians and fake missing and kidnapping stories are a dime a dozen.

I agree that GGP and IR are very susceptible to suggestion and are being used.