ID - DeOrr Kunz Jr, 2, Timber Creek Campground, 10 July 2015 - #20

[white rabbit]

thanks gliving, haven, blue...

i don't disagree. i wouldn't plan a camping trip however without supplies. but that was covered in threads 1-19 so i'm not going to belabor that point.

and the dog discussion, for me, is so totally over. they didn't find his trail. period.

was this child at the campground and why can't that very simple question be answered. i'm too tired to find the link but klein IIRC said "no comment" but IR said "yes he was there". alive, nor in what condition, we have no clue. and according to klein IR gave different accounts so...chunk of salt there.

so my amateur, uninformed guess is, he wasn't. alive nor in any 'condition'. thoughts???

 

[carbuff]

Isn't that what Klein said in his Q & A a few days ago? That the dogs hit on absolutely nothing? Correct me if I'm remembering wrong guys.
I'll try looking tomorrow when I can.

I'm sorry, but I don't consider Klein to be any more reliable a source than EIN. I'm sure he's an honorable man with good intentions, but he's unlikely to know what LE found.

 

[white rabbit]

oh and SB/Klein comments regarding "interviewing her (JK's) other children, searching the (idaho falls) home, and speaking with friends/family not at the 'campsite', specifically "no comment" on both their parts...in addition to SB's avoidance of any history of child abuse/neglect inquiries...

well. maybe RC's off-the-cuff remark about the search area being the "wrong place" isn't so far off. maybe as another poster suggested, she was drunk...but...truth serum and all...just sayin'...

 

[carbuff]

Yes, and I think it was even clearer in the press release that the Sheriff's Department sent out after a week and a half of their massive search efforts.

"Numerous resources, including helicopters with FLIR, diver’s, side scan sonar, scent dogs, cadaver dogs, horses, atv’s, and over 300 people, were used to grid and search the reservoir, the creek, and the hillsides, with absolutely no sign of the victim." https://www.facebook.com/LemhiCountySheriffsOffice/posts/884467051627459

Okay, thanks, that's what I was looking for

 

[Midge Montana]

If we knew for sure whether or not he was at the campground, well, we'd have a lot more to go on (or at least a little--gah).

I want to know if the camping trip was planned in advance or not. Did GGP really plan the campout? How far in advance? Supposedly he chose the place and had been there many times before. If this were true, it's not a stretch to believe an accident happened at the campsite (although the failure of the tracking dogs suggests otherwise).

On the other hand (suppose the RUMOR of Deorr Sr calling into work sick) is true. This would suggest an urgent need to get to the campground. Perhaps because Deorr was already deceased and they had to get out of dodge before family and/or friends noticed Deorr was not with them?

IF he did call in sick, it could simply have been because he didn't have any time off coming to him. It doesn't necessarily mean the trip was last-minute. That happened many times where I worked. Many times people know for sure they won't be granted a vacation day, so they don't even ask, but call in on the day of instead. It's not the most honorable thing to do, but it happens all the time.

 

[bessie]

The thing that is murky to me is whether anyone has ever clarified that the cadaver dogs have not picked up a hit anywhere on anything. I have heard Klein clarify that it was the scent dogs, not cadaver dogs that were thrown off by the ashes. And the scent dogs weren't distracted by all the people. Unless I am forgetting something, it seems like the cadaver dogs have been left out of the conversation. Dunno if that is irrelevant or because it's something that LE/Klein have not wanted to share. Klein said he refused to talk at all about dogs hitting on the vehicles. Seemed like it was important to him to not disclose whatever info there was.


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I'm pretty sure it was the cadaver dogs that were distracted by the cremains. A tracking/trailing or air scent dog, might hit on a body, or body parts, but I'm not so sure they'd hit on cremains in water. I really think it either was the HRD or water search dogs that picked up on the cremains. And if I'm not mistaken, Klein or an associate cleared that up after the first Q & A on FB.

I don't understand the dogs being thrown off by people. SAR teams often work large ground searches. But then I don't know exactly what was said in that regard, or what type of dogs were used.

JMO

 

[Aunt_Tulip]

IF he did call in sick, it could simply have been because he didn't have any time off coming to him. It doesn't necessarily mean the trip was last-minute. That happened many times where I worked. Many times people know for sure they won't be granted a vacation day, so they don't even ask, but call in on the day of instead. It's not the most honorable thing to do, but it happens all the time.

That's a good point!

The only way to know for sure if I personally have planned for a camping trip is if there are supplies for making s'mores. I could easily forget the tent, a tarp, my pillow...but s'mores are serious camping!

 

[carbuff]

When I was younger, my family would take impulsive camping trips. "The weather is gorgeous, Dad's had a really stressful day at work, let's load the camper and get out of here for a couple of days." Mostly that meant grabbing stuff out of the deep freeze to make supper from, and cereal for breakfast, but we sometimes stopped for food on the way. And I'm sure there was one time where we didn't take anything and bought groceries on the second day. So none of that sounds improbable to me on the face of it.

 

[Sillybilly]

- the "camping trip", as described by SB, puts IR in his car, GGPA in his trailer, and the K's in the bed of the pickup. who goes camping with a toddler to sleep in the bed of a pickup (not judging, asking)? was there a tent??? if not, IMO the K's never planned on "camping" and were there for another reason...

<rsbm>

Minor point, but just to clarify ... in Tricia's and Bessie's interview with the Sheriff, he said:

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...-**NO-DISCUSSION-quot&p=12319129#post12319129

18:30
TG: And when the parents went camping and, let&#8217;s see, the great grandfather and the friend. Did they have the appropriate camping gear to stay for those several days, do you think? Does that all pan out?

18:41
SB: You know one was in a camp trailer, one was in a tent, and the family was in the back of a motor vehicle, so&#8230;You know I&#8217;ve seen people camp like that, so that didn&#8217;t distress me. Food &#8211; they had food. They tried to buy other food, and then they went to the store the next morning, so yeah, I think &#8230;I don&#8217;t see any problem with that.

<bbm>

From that, I would take that IR was in a tent.

ETA: I see other WSrs are ahead of me on this one. Thanks for catching it early.

 

[haven71]

thanks gliving, haven, blue...

i don't disagree. i wouldn't plan a camping trip however without supplies. but that was covered in threads 1-19 so i'm not going to belabor that point.

and the dog discussion, for me, is so totally over. they didn't find his trail. period.

was this child at the campground and why can't that very simple question be answered. i'm too tired to find the link but klein IIRC said "no comment" but IR said "yes he was there". alive, nor in what condition, we have no clue. and according to klein IR gave different accounts so...chunk of salt there.

so my amateur, uninformed guess is, he wasn't. alive nor in any 'condition'. thoughts???

I've been chasing my tail for so long (and especially fast since parents were named as suspects). I've mulled over every theory and insights of all you fellow sleuthers.

If you want to know definitively IMO if little Deorr was ever at the campground, I say yes. But it's a very weak yes. A big part of it is from Klein's Q&A responses. I believe that Deorr was seen, probably alive, on Thursday night. I'll go look up Klein's statement....and oh, one disclaimer...I think he was seen in Leadore, but not necessarily at the campground.

 

[bluesneakers]

When I was younger, my family would take impulsive camping trips. "The weather is gorgeous, Dad's had a really stressful day at work, let's load the camper and get out of here for a couple of days." Mostly that meant grabbing stuff out of the deep freeze to make supper from, and cereal for breakfast, but we sometimes stopped for food on the way. And I'm sure there was one time where we didn't take anything and bought groceries on the second day. So none of that sounds improbable to me on the face of it.

Same here. And since you can't bring firewood you're always going to stop at a store anyway. Once we packed in such a rush we forgot the grill and had to buy a replacement. It works out fine because now we have the one outside and one that is always with the camping supplies.

 

[bessie]

He said the parents were solid too. We now know that's not the case.

It's not a black and white situation for Bowerman where he says something and it becomes law. It's very fluid, changing course as things become evident.

He still leans toward DeOrr being at the campsite. Klein avoided saying "campsite", but he sure stressed "on or near the mountain" often enough. So I think they're at least partially in agreement on that issue.

Eaton: But we do know DeOrr was up there?

Bowerman: I’m fairly confident DeOrr was there. I can’t find anybody that says they’re 100 percent positive he was there, but I feel fairly confident he was there at one time.

http://www.eastidahonews.com/2016/01/sheriff-i-just-pray-little-deorr-will-be-found/

SB: ...we have not had a confirmation-- an absolute 100% positive, that someone saw Deorr, but you know I still feel that he was at the campsite.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...-**NO-DISCUSSION-quot&p=12319129#post12319129

I'll take on this one. Yep, the dogs probably hit on the truck, as SB said the dogs showed interest a couple of times. I'd gather they showed interest in the family truck. But as SB says, it didn't pan out. The dogs didn't track any scent at the camp site. One can picture the scene. Dog handlers take dogs to truck and they bark and wag, 'saying' yes Handler, I smell him here. Then Handler says go find him. The dogs take off, run around sniffing, and come back. Sorry Handler, we can't find him. We got nothing Handler. :blushing: We've seen the videos of the dogs searching.

SB said no trace of Deorr has ever been found. It's like he was never there.

JMO, but I don't think he was referring to the dogs hitting on the truck. I'd think that's a given, IF they were working with dogs trained to seek out the scent of a specific person. But an air scent dog, for instance, doesn't work with a starting point or a scent article, as you describe.

But here nor there, the message on the dogs is clear. For whatever reason(s), they've been unsuccessful. Personally, I wouldn't base any conclusion on the dogs' failure to find DeOrr.

 

[haven71]

I looked back at the Q and A and cannot find the statement I'm referring too. I think I'm just too darn tired. I'll look again tomorrow. Sorry.

 

[TeaTime]

i agree, teatime, but it's against TOS to say that before parent(s) are named suspects.

and in most cases they're not. so IMO i'm hopeful that at least, for once, we get some justice here.

again, not judging...bluesneakers, if you were going on a camping trip with a two year old would that be your cot of choice? ggpa has a trailer. <modsnip>

maybe it's me. again i've slept in a pup tent on the forest floor (as a toddler). not sure a flatbed is the way to go?

whatever. to each his own. JMO but they never planned on camping that weekend, at least not with their son.

IR slept in a tent, GGP in his trailer and JM, VDK and the baby in the back of GGP's Suburban. The third seat can be removed, the second seats pushed forward and flattened and a I know that a double size blow up mattress will then fit in the back.

 

[Hoosier952]

I forgot about that. Of course, food or any gear could have been purchased Saturday before the 911 call.

Snipped- I'm very curious about what was on that store receipt. If they bought a ton of food while they were there, that points more toward Deorr being alive when they left. I can't imagine someone spending a ton of money on food after they hid their child. If they were just looking for an alibi, female care would be a great thing to buy. No one's going to be asking any questions about tampons or there purpose. Why waste money if you're not planning on staying long? I think the "attempt" at buying food at the Silver Dollar was just being too lazy to get a campfire going and cook something.

 

[gliving]

JMO, but I don't think he was referring to the dogs hitting on the truck. I'd think that's a given, IF they were working with dogs trained to seek out the scent of a specific person. But an air scent dog, for instance, doesn't work with a starting point or a scent article, as you describe.

But here nor there, the message on the dogs is clear. For whatever reason(s), they've been unsuccessful. Personally, I wouldn't base any conclusion on the dogs' failure to find DeOrr.

Thanks Bessie. You'll have to tell me more about how the dogs find an object if not for a starting point or a scent article. I've never heard about that. I give my humble opinion on working with bird dogs and herding dogs. It's an amazing feat to watch a duck dog find a downed duck a quarter of a mile away. But that's neither here nor there I guess. All the best.

 

[Midge Montana]

IR slept in a tent, GGP in his trailer and JM, VDK and the baby in the back of GGP's Suburban. The third seat can be removed, the second seats pushed forward and flattened and a I know that a double size blow up mattress will then fit in the back.

Thanks, I couldn't find a link for where I read that.
Truthfully, even if they'd slept in the back of a pickup with a topper, I wouldn't read anything into that. Plenty of times my husband and son (even when he was very young) would go camping on a trout stream and sleep in the back of our truck on a blowup mattress. We were 'roughin it' for sure but those trips provided some of the best memories!

 

[bessie]

Thanks Bessie. You'll have to tell me more about how the dogs find an object if not for a starting point or a scent article. I've never heard about that. I give my humble opinion on working with bird dogs and herding dogs. It's an amazing feat to watch a duck dog find a downed duck a quarter of a mile away. But that's neither here nor there I guess. All the best.

Here's one link.

http://www.ussartf.org/dogs_search_rescue.htm

You might also want to check out the SAR thread here on WS.
[h=1]K9 SAR Questions & Answers - Ask the Pros![/h]

 

[Hatfield]

If we knew for sure whether or not he was at the campground, well, we'd have a lot more to go on (or at least a little--gah).

I want to know if the camping trip was planned in advance or not. Did GGP really plan the campout? How far in advance? Supposedly he chose the place and had been there many times before. If this were true, it's not a stretch to believe an accident happened at the campsite (although the failure of the tracking dogs suggests otherwise).

On the other hand (suppose the RUMOR of Deorr Sr calling into work sick) is true. This would suggest an urgent need to get to the campground. Perhaps because Deorr was already deceased and they had to get out of dodge before family and/or friends noticed Deorr was not with them?

This post is raising a good point. I think we may have discussed before but it just dawned on me the importance of it.

Assuming the boy is deceased...one important thing to help figure out where he could be is to figure out if he passed before the trip or during the trip. And one thing to help figure that out is deciding if the trip was arranged in haste OR had some planning to it.

Some things really seem to indicate the trip was arranged in haste. Like not much mention of normal camping supplies, camp food like hot dogs, marshmallows, ice chests, beer or soda, fire wood or charcoal, fishing gear, tents, sleeping pads or air mattresses, flashlights, insect repellent, blankets, etc. etc. Hardly any mention of these sorts of normal things which could indicate the trip was quickly arranged. Almost like an emergency trip was quickly arranged.
Learning about needing to get food at the restaurant/bar Thursday night could even indicate not much food was brought.

Now assuming there was a call into work about being sick....
This could be another thing that could indicate quick planning and could possibly indicate boy was passed before leaving. Why?
Because asking employer for permission to have the day off to go camping would not be an option in that case. They would have had to go. They could not risk the employer saying no.

We don't know if there was a call into work about being sick for sure or not but this becomes important in this regard. LE and PI can find out. They probably have by now and it seems important to help know if trip was arranged in haste.

Maybe even more importantly would be knowing the time and day of the call too because it gives a starting point of when they knew they would be going camping.

That's assuming there was even a call into work about being sick or to even ask permission for the day off which I don't think we really know for sure one way or the other.

 

[The Apparition]

Oh yeah. Finally registered. I've been lurking for quite some time and have followed this case on other sites also. I would like to go bullet point if I may, since I have lots of thoughts.

>I have no idea what happened, I am as sure as any keyboard warrior can be that the parents do though.
>Everyone expecting LE to be forthcoming are mistaken. They have nothing to gain and all to loose, they have to go to court.
Of course the Sheriff is going to soft sell everything and the PI is going to be more bold.
>I know the PI said no drugs involved but to answer a question I've seen a million times; what would make 4 adults all agree to a cover-up? A meth lab. Those things are very mobile, smelly, and super dangerous. Hypothetically a lab could have been set up and an accident occurred. If everyone was involved they would all sure as hell keep quiet since they would all be charged with a crime if a baby died because of an accident.
>Assuming Klien is correct and no drugs were involved I have to assume as others have that the 2 POI's were mislead. Let's be honest fooling an ancient man and IR doesn't seem too difficult.
>I have taken a poly and it suuuucks. In my case they made very sure I was comfortably with the questions and I had them re-word a couple of them. They also went through all 10 question 5 times so it's not like one run through and you are done. Based on my experience there is no way there was some kind of semantics issue or misunderstanding. There are only so many ways they can ask about your missing kid. FYI mine was also about a kidnapped kid as my son was kidnapped.