ID - DeOrr Kunz Jr, 2, Timber Creek Campground, 10 July 2015 - #21

[Butler]

Here's what I just CANNOT get past, you guys. In the very first interview he and Jessica gave to Nate, DeOrr (Vernal) says:

"Uh, we searched for - after about twenty minutes in a dead panic, not knowing where he was in such a small area, and not knowing, never being there, I knew I was in trouble."

I can't ignore his choice of words. What in God's name did you do, Vernal, to KNOW that you were in trouble??? And what do you know about it, Jessica? For the love of all things holy, come clean!!!

:tantrum:

I don't think you can read anything incriminating into that phrase. He had never been to that campground before and wasn't familiar with the area. He knew he needed SAR help, that he, VDK, didn't have the ability to find little DeOrr.

 

[Butler]

I find it interesting that both Bowerman and Klein sort of blew off the theory that drugs were somehow involved. Are they that certain? Have they talked to enough people who knew them well and determined they are not drug users? Maybe what seems to be a dismissal is something they are actually underplaying it, keeping it close to the vest as they say.

Another thing, if they were under the influence on Friday, wouldn't it make sense that they couldn't agree on the small things, like who cooked breakfast, etc? Maybe their brains were really clouded, and that's why their stories continue to change.

If there were drugs involved I'm sure that would have come out by now. These wild idea tossed around that DeOrr could have got into mom & dad's stash and somehow overdosed, or that JM & VDK were high and did something to hurt DeOrr, or that all/some of the 4 spent Thursday night getting drunk at the Silver Dollar and had some wild sex party. Or the one that maybe DeOrr was taken or given as payment for a drug debt.

I haven't read every thread, just too many, but I read the media thread and there is nothing in that thread that indicates any of the above is true. I believe it is irresponsible to post such things as though they are fact. I get that WS is here to follow cases and discuss & debate theories but I feel we should base those theories on what is known about the case.

haven71 ~~ while I quoted your post, many posters have thrown out some wild ideas, so my little rant certainly is not directed at you.

 

[pepelepolecat]

I hope you will all understand that with love and forgiveness comes contrition, penance and redemption. Penance is or can be, punishment. But I am sure every parent knows that you can punish someone without hating them.

We have a saying down here in the beautiful South that maybe sums it up 'you will catch more flies with honey than with vinegar'.

imo, repentence comes before forgiveness. Those who refuse to accept responsibility for their actions are neither asking for nor wanting anyone's forgiveness.

(And interesting factoid: The fermented smell of vinegar is absolutely irresistable to flies far more than honey).

 

[wondering25]

Does anyone have an accurate estimate of:

The amount raised and paid to klein

The amount raised from pages and where that money went ( to the family directly or for SAR for example)

What was the pitch for the page (s). Help the family survive.. help us pay for rescue teams, help us as we cant work because we are distraught?

Who started the pages and are they now still "up" or defunct?

thanks

 

[pepelepolecat]

I am not religious in any way but this has got to be the best post (IMO) across all 21 threads and all of those to come.

<modsnip> Thank you for *trying* to remind them although I think it is all for naught for some. Vengeance (that is not theirs to impose) appears to be the driving force for some. When I read these posts, my immediate thought is, "WHAT IS LIL MAN THINKING AND HOW SAD IS HE IF HIS PARENTS ARE INNOCENT?" (which is what I believe until there is proof beyond ANY doubt that they are not and we do not have ANY proof or even ANY indication that they are guilty of anything).

How very sad my soul is that these precious parents, their beautiful son and his life/memory are defiled in this manner!!!

MOO

<modsnip> These two have not repented of anything, or they'd have already spilled their guts to SB.

I owe them nothing, regardless of what my own personal religious beliefs may or may not be.

 

[persimmon]

If there were drugs involved I'm sure that would have come out by now. These wild idea tossed around that DeOrr could have got into mom & dad's stash and somehow overdosed, or that JM & VDK were high and did something to hurt DeOrr, or that all/some of the 4 spent Thursday night getting drunk at the Silver Dollar and had some wild sex party. Or the one that maybe DeOrr was taken or given as payment for a drug debt.

I haven't read every thread, just too many, but I read the media thread and there is nothing in that thread that indicates any of the above is true. I believe it is irresponsible to post such things as though they are fact. I get that WS is here to follow cases and discuss & debate theories but I feel we should base those theories on what is known about the case.

haven71 ~~ while I quoted your post, many posters have thrown out some wild ideas, so my little rant certainly is not directed at you.

There's a great deal of circumstantial evidence that suggests drug use, but that aside if you read the news and note missing children cases, the unfortunate reality is that it plays a role in far too many cases. Nobody is pulling this idea out of the air or hunting witches, we are trying to make sense out of their odd behavior, missing toddler, and the fact WE HAVE BEEN TOLD THEY HAVE REPEATEDLY LIED. I'm not screaming but my bold feature does not work so just emphasizing.
I'm going to look for direct quotes from SB and Klein wherein the state drug use is not a factor because I personally do not revall, but I'm likely wrong since so many people have cited it.

 

[pepelepolecat]

There's a great deal of circumstantial evidence that suggests drug use, but that aside if you read the news and note missing children cases, the unfortunate reality is that it plays a role in far too many cases. Nobody is pulling this idea out of the air or hunting witches, we are trying to make sense out of their odd behavior, missing toddler, and the fact WE HAVE BEEN TOLD THEY HAVE REPEATEDLY LIED. I'm not screaming but my bold feature does not work so just emphasizing.
I'm going to look for direct quotes from SB and Klein wherein the state drug use is not a factor because I personally do not revall, but I'm likely wrong since so many people have cited it.

I don't recall if SB said it, but Klein definitely did.

Drug use would certainly explain some things. But sadly, it could just be yet another case of evil without having drugs to blame.

 

[TheTruthWillOut]

I actually don't think drugs are involved in what happened to Deorr. I know a lot here cite the first interview and the drone interview but the longer this has gone on, the less I think drugs being directly involved.

Going back to the interviews, I'm thinking that they were both were very nervous because the family were right off camera watching them and if it turns out the story they were telling is a lie I can understand the nervousness. JM did look a lot more relaxed in the October drone interview but still had lots of nervous ticks (family present) but I think at least a part of this is that she was cold.

About the drone footage interview....do we know who the man asking the questions was? Just that it wasn't NE and together with the drone footage was wondering if it had anything to do with the documentary makers?

 

[CanadianWells]

Just wanted to say thanks to teatime and everyone involved in that interesting conversation on forgiveness and justice. I'm late to the conversation as usual, so not going to drag the thread back with my own response, but I wanted to just say thanks to everyone for the interesting thoughts and conversation-- gave me a lot to think about, which is always good for learning/growth.

 

[desert-blue]

About drug use. Yes, Caroline Klein answered "no" on a Q & A where someone asked if drugs were involved in this case. However, as has been discussed previously, Klein didn't come on the scene until five months after DeOrr's disappearance. It would be difficult for his team to know whether drugs were being used on July 9th or 10th. I'm not sure that LE even knows the answer to that. Klein is conducting an investigation and talking with friends and acquaintances (I assume) so by now he probably should have a good feeling of their lifestyle and whether it includes any habitual or occasional drug use. Regardless of his findings, the real question is whether drugs could have been involved in DeOrr's death on July 9th/10th and it appears he thinks not. It is not a statement saying that JM and DK have never done drugs - just that drugs weren't involved in DeOrr's death. It's a loaded question with an undeveloped answer.

I think the reason that a lot of people have questioned drugs is because that would provide some sort of explanation as to how or why someone could be able to harm their child. People using drugs or alcohol have impaired judgment and people do things they wouldn't normally do. However, we've been told that Klein doesn't suspect drugs, so we are to assume the parents (and presumably the other two POI's) were not under the influence of drugs when DeOrr was harmed, and also that DeOrr's death was not caused by an accidental or intentional ingestion of drugs. At least that would be my take on it. However, I will add that I take Klein's statements with some amount of caution. I don't think he is intentionally trying to mislead anyone, per se, but the format of the FB Q & A sessions is a bit difficult to follow and might not result in the most well-thought-out answers... MOO.


"Were drugs involved?"
I will ask Mr. Klein, in your investigation, do you feel like drugs were involved?
February 2 at 12:26pm
Caroline Klein Gear No.
February 2 at 1:16pm
Klein Investigations and Consulting: As I stated previously, there were no drugs involved to our knowledge.
February 4 at 3:22pm

https://www.facebook.com/bellasfriendsuamc/posts/1688440941411392

 

[Butler]

There's a great deal of circumstantial evidence that suggests drug use, but that aside if you read the news and note missing children cases, the unfortunate reality is that it plays a role in far too many cases. Nobody is pulling this idea out of the air or hunting witches, we are trying to make sense out of their odd behavior, missing toddler, and the fact WE HAVE BEEN TOLD THEY HAVE REPEATEDLY LIED. I'm not screaming but my bold feature does not work so just emphasizing.
I'm going to look for direct quotes from SB and Klein wherein the state drug use is not a factor because I personally do not revall, but I'm likely wrong since so many people have cited it.

What "circumstantial" evidence? Yes, it may be a factor in many missing child cases but that doesn't mean it is here. I would think my behavior would be odd if my child was missing. We haven't been told they "repeatedly lied", we've been told their stories don't line up, that details in the stories are changing. We've been told they failed two significant questions on their polygraphs.

If these parents are responsible for the death of DeOrr, they need to be held accountable. Accountable for what they did, not for what strangers on an internet forum have condemned them.

As I said earlier, I'm not convinced either way. This is not the first time a 2 year old boy has vanished without a trace in Idaho. IIRC there are 3-4 others in different parts of the state where a 2 year old boy just vanished, never to be seen or heard from again.

 

[Rayemonde]

If there were drugs involved I'm sure that would have come out by now. These wild idea tossed around that DeOrr could have got into mom & dad's stash and somehow overdosed, or that JM & VDK were high and did something to hurt DeOrr, or that all/some of the 4 spent Thursday night getting drunk at the Silver Dollar and had some wild sex party. Or the one that maybe DeOrr was taken or given as payment for a drug debt.

I haven't read every thread, just too many, but I read the media thread and there is nothing in that thread that indicates any of the above is true. I believe it is irresponsible to post such things as though they are fact. I get that WS is here to follow cases and discuss & debate theories but I feel we should base those theories on what is known about the case.

haven71 ~~ while I quoted your post, many posters have thrown out some wild ideas, so my little rant certainly is not directed at you.

Tbh I think people are throwing out those theories because the alternative reason why a family would cover up the death of a child are so terrible. Usually when a child goes missing and it turns out the parents were responsible, the child died a violent death at the hands of their parents. People want to look for the good in people and say Oh, it was probably just an accident and they panicked - but that almost never turns out to be the case. MOO.

 

[desert-blue]

What "circumstantial" evidence? Yes, it may be a factor in many missing child cases but that doesn't mean it is here. I would think my behavior would be odd if my child was missing. We haven't been told they "repeatedly lied", we've been told their stories don't line up, that details in the stories are changing. We've been told they failed two significant questions on their polygraphs.

If these parents are responsible for the death of DeOrr, they need to be held accountable. Accountable for what they did, not for what strangers on an internet forum have condemned them.

As I said earlier, I'm not convinced either way. This is not the first time a 2 year old boy has vanished without a trace in Idaho. IIRC there are 3-4 others in different parts of the state where a 2 year old boy just vanished, never to be seen or heard from again.

Klein, Vilt, LE, and the FBI believe the parents are involved. Respectfully, I don't think that is based only on two failed polygraph answers. Time will tell. MOO.

 

[Rayemonde]

As I said earlier, I'm not convinced either way. This is not the first time a 2 year old boy has vanished without a trace in Idaho. IIRC there are 3-4 others in different parts of the state where a 2 year old boy just vanished, never to be seen or heard from again.

Interesting - do you remember their names? :tyou:

 

[Jamaica Me Crazy]

I don't think you can read anything incriminating into that phrase. He had never been to that campground before and wasn't familiar with the area. He knew he needed SAR help, that he, VDK, didn't have the ability to find little DeOrr.

He SAID he was never there before. I don't believe much of what he says.

 

[Jamaica Me Crazy]

&#8220;One of the FBI&#8217;s top polygraph experts told us, &#8216;these folks are not being truthful,&#8217;&#8221; Bowerman said.

So I ask: what is the opposite of being truthful?

 

[Jamaica Me Crazy]

"They refused to give us any further information to clear up the untruthfulness and they've changed their story on numerous occasions," Sheriff Lynn Bowerman told KTVB-TV.

 

[Butler]

Interesting - do you remember their names? :tyou:

http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/f/felix_ruben.html
http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/b/barnett_richard.html
http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/f/fair_curtis.html
http://www.charleyproject.org/cases/c/cannon_jason.html

There may be one more but these are the ones I can remember. Not exactly like DeOrr except they are 2 years old and vanished with no resolution.

 

[Butler]

Klein, Vilt, LE, and the FBI believe the parents are involved. Respectfully, I don't think that is based only on two failed polygraph answers. Time will tell. MOO.

I didn't say it was only about the polygraphs. I did mention LE stated their stories are changing. I'm not saying the parents are NOT involved, I'm saying I don't know yet. Time may tell. I pray LE can find this child this spring, I hope Klein does know more than we do, I pray there is a resolution to this case.

 

[CatsInTheCradle]

&#8220;One of the FBI&#8217;s top polygraph experts told us, &#8216;these folks are not being truthful,&#8217;&#8221; Bowerman said.

So I ask: what is the opposite of being truthful?

And this is where I have problems with the parents. WHY would you not be truthful about your missing two year old?