ID - DeOrr Kunz Jr, 2, Timber Creek Campground, 10 July 2015 - #21

[katydid23]

i have a feeling these parents will go down fighting. they won't ever admit to anything.

And sadly enough, that seems to work for a lot of parents with missing kids.
…*cough…..Mark Redwine…..*cough

 

[TeaTime]

I have to say that even if the parents did search for an hour, it seems unlikely they would reach a campsite 1/2 mile away. Seriously, they had 360 different directions to go in and I bet they scrambled around the campsite perimeter but we are talking about 2 people and a pretty large, rough space. There is no way for them to search a 1/2 mile perimeter in an hour so I am not putting any importance on the fact that the campers did not run into each other. The other couple could have been hiking and not at camp so they heard and saw nothing. Not strange to me.

They didn't just sit at camp for 3 hours waiting for help to arrive. Even GGP and IR would think that was suspect.

VDK was very animated about the road above his campsite that he discovered while searching. "You can see the whole campground from there" maybe he was worried that someone had, in fact, seen what happened.

Is it possible that VDK had a 4 wheeler up there and that he and JM went for a ride, leaving the baby with GGP at the campsite and IR nearby? Did the baby walk over the embankment in that direction, sit down or fall asleep in the warm sunshine and grass and they accidentally ran over him hauling their way back to camp and VDK had maybe been drinking?

 

[hmartin]

I have to say that even if the parents did search for an hour, it seems unlikely they would reach a campsite 1/2 mile away. Seriously, they had 360 different directions to go in and I bet they scrambled around the campsite perimeter but we are talking about 2 people and a pretty large, rough space. There is no way for them to search a 1/2 mile perimeter in an hour so I am not putting any importance on the fact that the campers did not run into each other. The other couple could have been hiking and not at camp so they heard and saw nothing. Not strange to me.

They didn't just sit at camp for 3 hours waiting for help to arrive. Even GGP and IR would think that was suspect.

VDK was very animated about the road above his campsite that he discovered while searching. "You can see the whole campground from there" maybe he was worried that someone had, in fact, seen what happened.

Is it possible that VDK had a 4 wheeler up there and that he and JM went for a ride, leaving the baby with GGP at the campsite and IR nearby? Did the baby walk over the embankment in that direction, sit down or fall asleep in the warm sunshine and grass and they accidentally ran over him hauling their way back to camp and VDK had maybe been drinking?

I don't think the four wheeler got there until their family came to help search

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[Rayemonde]

I thought of another no-body child murder case awaiting trial. Willie Wilson is charged with murdering 6 week old Delano Wilson. I've just been looking at what evidence the prosecution has (from the probable cause document and Msm articles), given that there is no proof that the baby is even dead.

Willie Wilson called 911 and said that a couple had just abducted baby Delano at gunpoint. LE arrived to find him lying in an alleyway.

Evidence Against WW:

• Cctv footage from a minute before the 911 call shows him walking with no baby.
  
• He claimed to have been pistol-whipped by the abductors, but LE observed no injuries on him.
  
• No cctv footage was found of the car WW claimed was used by the abductors.
  
• Neighbours claimed they heard yelling from WW's house the night before the alleged abduction. They said they heard the mother yell "This should not have happened!" and WW yell something about the shower - possibly "Put it in the shower!"
  
• Analysis of WW's phone showed numerous Google searches about missing children and child abduction shortly before the alleged abduction.
  
• Blood was found on a baby blanket inside the house - but it could not be matched to baby Delano.
  
• A forensic sketch that WW had made of the alleged abductors bore a resemblance to two characters from the Grand Theft Auto videogame. A copy of the videogame was found in the house.
  
• A trucker claimed he saw a couple emerging from woodland a few hours before the alleged abduction. He identified the couple as baby Delano's parents from a photo lineup.
  
• The mother denied knowing anything about the baby's disappearance. She said that when WW left to take the baby for the walk that he was allegedly abducted on, the baby seemed asleep and felt cold, and had snot coming out of his nose.

This is the kind of circumstantial evidence that LE may have against baby DeOrr's parents. Would you convict Willie Wilson of murder based on the above? No body has been found, and there is no proof that the baby is dead. Maybe WW will admit that he was less than truthful about the abduction story, but will claim he actually gave a child away to a lovely childless couple because he was tired of fatherhood.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/father-of-missing-ind-baby-charged-with-murder/

http://fox59.com/2015/12/16/jury-tr...or-father-accused-in-baby-delano-murder-case/

 

[katydid23]

"She said that when WW left to take the baby for the walk that he was allegedly abducted on, the baby seemed asleep and felt cold, and had snot coming out of his nose."


Wow. And she let him take a month old baby that was cold, and 'asleep' with a runny nose out for a 'walk.' :no:

 

[persimmon]

Good question and one that's hard to answer because my gut tells me he's guilty but I'm not certain the law would agree. I suppose it would depend on what the options were at trial....but my initial reaction is that I do not think the evidence is strong enough to eliminate all doubt. This is the type of scenario SB likely wants to avoid by taking the time to continue the investigation. For instance, I couldn't be certain WW was the perpetrator and not the mother. Do they seem like lousy parents capable of such a heinous act? Yes, but which one and could a prosecutor really prove within a range of 98% probability with that evidence? Idk...that's a slippery slope.

 

[persimmon]

Another missing child that has always baffled me is Lisa Irwin. The mother is still considered guilty by many but no body has ever been found and no charges filed.
http://www.foxnews.com/transcript/2015/01/05/look-back-at-baby-lisa-mystery/

There is a lot to this case and I have always thought that a poi who was questioned and dismissed is guilty but it seems LE has been stuck on the mother and perhaps let the real culprit escape justice. Jmo

 

[mrjitty]

I thought of another no-body child murder case awaiting trial. Willie Wilson is charged with murdering 6 week old Delano Wilson. I've just been looking at what evidence the prosecution has (from the probable cause document and Msm articles), given that there is no proof that the baby is even dead.

Willie Wilson called 911 and said that a couple had just abducted baby Delano at gunpoint. LE arrived to find him lying in an alleyway.

Evidence Against WW:

• Cctv footage from a minute before the 911 call shows him walking with no baby.
  
• He claimed to have been pistol-whipped by the abductors, but LE observed no injuries on him.
  
• No cctv footage was found of the car WW claimed was used by the abductors.
  
• Neighbours claimed they heard yelling from WW's house the night before the alleged abduction. They said they heard the mother yell "This should not have happened!" and WW yell something about the shower - possibly "Put it in the shower!"
  
• Analysis of WW's phone showed numerous Google searches about missing children and child abduction shortly before the alleged abduction.
  
• Blood was found on a baby blanket inside the house - but it could not be matched to baby Delano.
  
• A forensic sketch that WW had made of the alleged abductors bore a resemblance to two characters from the Grand Theft Auto videogame. A copy of the videogame was found in the house.
  
• A trucker claimed he saw a couple emerging from woodland a few hours before the alleged abduction. He identified the couple as baby Delano's parents from a photo lineup.
  
• The mother denied knowing anything about the baby's disappearance. She said that when WW left to take the baby for the walk that he was allegedly abducted on, the baby seemed asleep and felt cold, and had snot coming out of his nose.

This is the kind of circumstantial evidence that LE may have against baby DeOrr's parents. Would you convict Willie Wilson of murder based on the above? No body has been found, and there is no proof that the baby is dead. Maybe WW will admit that he was less than truthful about the abduction story, but will claim he actually gave a child away to a lovely childless couple because he was tired of fatherhood.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/father-of-missing-ind-baby-charged-with-murder/

http://fox59.com/2015/12/16/jury-tr...or-father-accused-in-baby-delano-murder-case/

I would say there is reasonable amounts of circumstantial evidence that the baby is dead.

The problem is slightly different - proof of how the baby died.

Manslaughter might be the only possible verdict in a case like this due to the difficulties in proving intent?

 

[mrjitty]

And sadly enough, that seems to work for a lot of parents with missing kids.
…*cough…..Mark Redwine…..*cough

Sadly while no body is located - they have a good chance of avoiding justice IMO

 

[Jamaica Me Crazy]

And sadly enough, that seems to work for a lot of parents with missing kids.
…*cough…..Mark Redwine…..*cough

Geez... His name makes me want to upchuck. Too many behavioral problems with that sicko. :sick:

 

[Jamaica Me Crazy]

I thought of another no-body child murder case awaiting trial. Willie Wilson is charged with murdering 6 week old Delano Wilson. I've just been looking at what evidence the prosecution has (from the probable cause document and Msm articles), given that there is no proof that the baby is even dead.

Willie Wilson called 911 and said that a couple had just abducted baby Delano at gunpoint. LE arrived to find him lying in an alleyway.

Evidence Against WW:

• Cctv footage from a minute before the 911 call shows him walking with no baby.
  
• He claimed to have been pistol-whipped by the abductors, but LE observed no injuries on him.
  
• No cctv footage was found of the car WW claimed was used by the abductors.
  
• Neighbours claimed they heard yelling from WW's house the night before the alleged abduction. They said they heard the mother yell "This should not have happened!" and WW yell something about the shower - possibly "Put it in the shower!"
  
• Analysis of WW's phone showed numerous Google searches about missing children and child abduction shortly before the alleged abduction.
  
• Blood was found on a baby blanket inside the house - but it could not be matched to baby Delano.
  
• A forensic sketch that WW had made of the alleged abductors bore a resemblance to two characters from the Grand Theft Auto videogame. A copy of the videogame was found in the house.
  
• A trucker claimed he saw a couple emerging from woodland a few hours before the alleged abduction. He identified the couple as baby Delano's parents from a photo lineup.
  
• The mother denied knowing anything about the baby's disappearance. She said that when WW left to take the baby for the walk that he was allegedly abducted on, the baby seemed asleep and felt cold, and had snot coming out of his nose.

This is the kind of circumstantial evidence that LE may have against baby DeOrr's parents. Would you convict Willie Wilson of murder based on the above? No body has been found, and there is no proof that the baby is dead. Maybe WW will admit that he was less than truthful about the abduction story, but will claim he actually gave a child away to a lovely childless couple because he was tired of fatherhood.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/father-of-missing-ind-baby-charged-with-murder/

http://fox59.com/2015/12/16/jury-tr...or-father-accused-in-baby-delano-murder-case/

Hmmm... Wonder if there are any video games out there that feature creeps in black Rubicons? :gasp:

 

[CoverMeCagney]

I have to say that even if the parents did search for an hour, it seems unlikely they would reach a campsite 1/2 mile away. Seriously, they had 360 different directions to go in and I bet they scrambled around the campsite perimeter but we are talking about 2 people and a pretty large, rough space. There is no way for them to search a 1/2 mile perimeter in an hour so I am not putting any importance on the fact that the campers did not run into each other. The other couple could have been hiking and not at camp so they heard and saw nothing. Not strange to me.

BBM. Except that the very first place you'd head would be the reservoir (ie nearer the other family). You'd be shouting his name over and over and in the stillness of the mountain anybody would have heard them shouting.

Has anyone got a map of exactly where the other campground is?

Dek raised a good point upthread. Maybe the other campers KNEW the Kunz family were there, but the Kunz family didn't know about the others. I'd love to know exactly what happened in the time before 911 were called. Because there should have been one hell of a racket of frantic parents and 2 other adults searching high and low. Did the others negate this, or did they get involved, did ANYONE ELSE help them look before help arrived at 4pm ish? We have a 2 hour period, if the other campers were on site in that time I'm pretty sure they'd have heard something going on...

 

[wondering25]

I believe cell phone analysis was being completed. SB referenced that fact on his recent radio interview here. The way he said it implied that they had some analysis completed already but more was still being worked on. He DID NOT say anything linking the completed analysis to the announcement that parents are suspects but I am hoping they found something solid along those lines.

why would it take 7 months to analyze a cell phone or 4 cell phones? That is nuts. i dont believe it. OR they have done it and have nothing...JMO

 

[pepelepolecat]

I have lost track of each of my kids for short periods of time here and there over the years, as a single parent with 2 active boys. I ALWAYS sought out the help of others - police, the public, security officers, firefighters, lifeguards, store managers, whoever was closest - and people were always more than willing to help. My kids were always fine and yes, I felt a little stupid and hysterical - but truly all I cared about was finding my kid/kids! You can bet I'd call the police without hesitation in a few minutes, if I hadn't been able to find them in that short time! I think that's a normal parental reaction. Only takes a few minutes to call, and then you could continue to search on your own until help came.

I lost track of one of mine in a busy mall outdoor/camping-type store once. I was with my husband and our other boys at the time. I immediately went icy cold and panicy and started retracing my steps. It seemed like it took FOREVER to find him, but in reality, it couldn't have been much more than a minute (he was standing at a big display with lots of animals and things). I think if I hadn't found him when retracing, I'd have absolutely been calling for help. And probably yelling in the middle of the store even though I have serious social anxiety and rarely speak above a low tone of voice, lol. I cannot imagine waiting 15 to 30 minutes in a wilderness area not knowing where my kid was before calling for help. I'd have been screaming his name, looking frantically, enlisting the help of anyone I could find. I might not call 911 within the first three to five minutes, but I am pretty sure that everyone within shouting range would know I was missing a child. And then I can see pestering 911 every five minutes to find out what's taking so long.

Everyone reacts differently ... but ...

 

[pepelepolecat]

Another missing child that has always baffled me is Lisa Irwin. The mother is still considered guilty by many but no body has ever been found and no charges filed.
http://www.foxnews.com/transcript/2015/01/05/look-back-at-baby-lisa-mystery/

There is a lot to this case and I have always thought that a poi who was questioned and dismissed is guilty but it seems LE has been stuck on the mother and perhaps let the real culprit escape justice. Jmo

That was a weird case, imo, and there were definitely other potential suspects.

 

[white rabbit]

O/T aw c'mon. seriously? is there a thread for titus tackett yet?

 

[desert-blue]

BBM. Except that the very first place you'd head would be the reservoir (ie nearer the other family). You'd be shouting his name over and over and in the stillness of the mountain anybody would have heard them shouting.

Has anyone got a map of exactly where the other campground is?

Dek raised a good point upthread. Maybe the other campers KNEW the Kunz family were there, but the Kunz family didn't know about the others. I'd love to know exactly what happened in the time before 911 were called. Because there should have been one hell of a racket of frantic parents and 2 other adults searching high and low. Did the others negate this, or did they get involved, did ANYONE ELSE help them look before help arrived at 4pm ish? We have a 2 hour period, if the other campers were on site in that time I'm pretty sure they'd have heard something going on...

I agree that the parents, if truly searching for their child, would have headed to the reservoir (especially given the amount of time he was missing before SAR arrived). The reservoir is not very large and the upper campsite (where the older folks were camped) is very close to the edge of the reservoir. I don't think there is any way they (the other campers) would have not noticed (seen and/or heard) the parents searching for DeOrr unless 1. the parents weren't searching for DeOrr; or 2. the other campers were out of the area (either took a trip to town, or hiked a distance away from the camp; if the latter, not sure how far elderly campers would venture).

Here is a map from the forest service website that shows the location of the upper and lower campgrounds (lower campground is the one on the upper right of the map; the upper campground is to the lower left). The scale bar at the bottom shows how far 100 meters would be. The campsites appear to be about 700-800 meters (just under a half mile) apart.

 

[Rayemonde]

I agree that the parents, if truly searching for their child, would have headed to the reservoir (especially given the amount of time he was missing before SAR arrived). The reservoir is not very large and the upper campsite (where the older folks were camped) is very close to the edge of the reservoir. I don't think there is any way they (the other campers) would have not noticed (seen and/or heard) the parents searching for DeOrr unless 1. the parents weren't searching for DeOrr; or 2. the other campers were out of the area (either took a trip to town, or hiked a distance away from the camp; if the latter, not sure how far elderly campers would venture).

Here is a map from the forest service website that shows the location of the upper and lower campgrounds (lower campground is the one on the upper right of the map; the upper campground is to the lower left). The scale bar at the bottom shows how far 100 meters would be. The campsites appear to be about 700-800 meters (just under a half mile) apart.

View attachment 88889

I agree... If they were really searching, and if the other campers were there, they would have seen or heard them. Thanks for the awesome map, btw!

But we have no idea what they did after the 911 call... And what ggp and IR were doing. Did the 911 operator tell them to stay within cellphone service? In that case, would Vernal have stayed wherever he'd hauled off to to get signal? Jessica was "blessed" to get signal where she was, after all, so presumably the signal there came and went... Did one of them stay within signal range whilst the other searched (or pretended to search).

Did anyone search? SB said something about a rumour that IR disappeared for an hour at one point - SB said IR was searching for Deorr for that hour. Was that before or after LE arrived? :thinking:

 

[desert-blue]

I agree... If they were really searching, and if the other campers were there, they would have seen or heard them. Thanks for the awesome map, btw!

But we have no idea what they did after the 911 call... And what ggp and IR were doing. Did the 911 operator tell them to stay within cellphone service? In that case, would Vernal have stayed wherever he'd hauled off to to get signal? Jessica was "blessed" to get signal where she was, after all, so presumably the signal there came and went... Did one of them stay within signal range whilst the other searched (or pretended to search).

Did anyone search? SB said something about a rumour that IR disappeared for an hour at one point - SB said IR was searching for Deorr for that hour. Was that before or after LE arrived? :thinking:

You're right that we have no idea what they did after the 911 call. I can tell you that I would not sit in one place while my toddler was missing, regardless of what 911 said! I might have had one person (say GGPA) stay in cell phone service, but no way would I have all four adults doing nothing during that time. Finding my child before the sun set would have been the only thing that mattered to me... MOO.

 

[Hatfield]

You're right that we have no idea what they did after the 911 call. I can tell you that I would not sit in one place while my toddler was missing, regardless of what 911 said! I might have had one person (say GGPA) stay in cell phone service, but no way would I have all four adults doing nothing during that time. Finding my child before the sun set would have been the only thing that mattered to me... MOO.

Agree.

A litmus test of how soon the other campers would have spotted them if they were searching would be how quick the volunteer searchers found the other campers when the volunteer searchers showed up to help.

Or Visa-Versa. How soon did the campers hear or see the other volunteer searchers when they showed up.

That would be the litmus test to prove whether or not there was any real searching going on before the 911 call.

For example when the volunteer searchers showed up if they ran into the other campers right away OR the other campers noticed them right away and that is the first time they realized there were others there then it is a sign that no real searching was going on before 911 was called.

I agree that the other campers should have at least heard someone shouting for Deorr before the 911 call so long as they say they went to the reservoir area to look for him.