ID - DeOrr Kunz Jr, 2, Timber Creek Campground, 10 July 2015 - #21

[JuJulio]

She did have pictures of DeOrr posted from before that time, but removed many of them almost immediately after the news broke.

Seems strange to me that JM didn't seem to have any pics of DeOrr posted to her fb page until after July 10, 2015. Certainly does not illustrate criminal behavior, but it's worth noting there's a shift that occurred.

 

[bessie]

<modsnip>

SABBM

Will delete my post again if this is not allowed... but what would constitute "concrete physical evidence" ?
We know there were three 911 calls. And four polys given.
But would this evidence have to be something else ?
Anyone with some more experience with forensics have an idea ?
Tia.
:moo:

Sorry. I meant to post this last night and got side-tracked.

physical evidence
: tangible evidence (as a weapon, document, or visible injury) that is in some way related to the incident that gave rise to the case called also real evidence compare demonstrative evidence and testimonial evidence in this entry

http://dictionary.findlaw.com/definition/evidence.html

Physical evidence usually involves objects found at the scene of a crime. Physical evidence may consist of all sorts of prints such as fingerprints, footprints, handprints, tidemarks, [sic] cut marks, tool marks, etc.

Examination of some physical evidence is conducted by making impressions in plaster, taking images of marks, or lifting the fingerprints from objects encountered. These serve later as a comparison to identify, for example, a vehicle that was parked at the scene, a person who was present, a type of manufacturing method used to create a tool, or a method or technique used to break into a building or harm a victim.

An examination of documents found at the scene or related to the crime is often an integral part of forensic analysis. Such examination often helps to establish not only the author, but more importantly identify any alterations that took place. Specialists are also able to recover text from documents damaged by accident or on purpose.

American Academy of Forensic Sciences (AAFS) describes physical evidence as anything from small evidences that require a microscope to view to anything as large as a truck.

http://definitions.uslegal.com/p/physical-evidence/

 

[persimmon]

Trust me when I tell you, they certainly DID send request to preserve/obtain any info available for this. I'm sure it does vary from carrier to carrier, but in recent missing person/suicide our agency had (that stretched for days) we were able to obtain all calls, pics and text messages. They're not going to share any of that info. Not during an open investigation

The average person (criminal person too) doesn't even realize the amount of information their phone can reveal if the need should arrise. Even if somebody knew they some features might incriminate them and therefore changed settings, I think even those changes could be discovered. For instance, if they turned off all but the required location setting it would be incriminating circumstantial evidence.

It should be easy to determine the number of towers in the area they were camping and that surrounding it. Ill have to review, but I think JM is seen in the interview with an iphone. No idea about VK but todays smart phones are all so integrated with other apps and services who want your location for advertising and other reasons that they all will have information that could help an investigation.

 

[persimmon]

She did have pictures of DeOrr posted from before that time, but removed many of them almost immediately after the news broke.

Hmm...strange to then turn around and repost within days new pics.

Do you recall any specifics? That's even more odd imo. Makes sense since she has pics of her other children predating July 10, but starting on July 14 she's posting pics of her and DeOrr or just him.

 

[Rayemonde]

No. I'm really on the fence about whether this was an accident/cover up or a situation involving abuse. SBs request for people to come forward regarding firsthand observations of interaction between the parents and DeOrr is a strong indicator they have evidence of past abuse. It was a very specific request from a man of few words. But, Idk.

It would seem like they would be critical witnesses, but idk there either. Isaac seemed genuinely surprised about them being named suspects. So strange! And I have a hard time having an opinion about GGF because he's been absent from everything and I've never heard a first person statement or anything concrete outside of Trina's comments in People magazine where she recounts his story.

I feel the same way about Bowerman asking for witnesses to come forward. I feel like they're trying to build a case for past abuse, and I have enough faith in Bowerman that he isn't just randomly fishing based on nothing...

I did have a close look at all the pictures of DeOrr I could find, and in a few he looks to have faint bruises on his head, but of course kids get bruises for perfectly innocent reasons so it doesn't necessarily mean anything. But if someone had lost their temper with him and hit him hard on the head, that could certainly cause death and would explain why they felt the need to fake his disappearance. And remember the day after Bowerman asked witnesses to come forward, he said he'd already had 6 phoecalls. And call me cynical, but I really doubt they were all just calls from people gushing about what good parents J and V are.

 

[Rayemonde]

Hmm...strange to then turn around and repost within days new pics.

Do you recall any specifics? That's even more odd imo. Makes sense since she has pics of her other children predating July 10, but starting on July 14 she's posting pics of her and DeOrr or just him.

Maybe she didn't want people like me looking for bruises. Make all the pics private, then you can select only the best ones to release to the public.

 

[JuJulio]

Yes, I recall what the pics were (and did have a feeling that I should take screenshots, but unfortunately did not do it, and then, poof! they were gone). I worry I would be breaking the rules of this forum by describing something to which there are no longer any links/pics.

Hmm...strange to then turn around and repost within days new pics.

Do you recall any specifics? That's even more odd imo. Makes sense since she has pics of her other children predating July 10, but starting on July 14 she's posting pics of her and DeOrr or just him.

 

[persimmon]

I feel the same way about Bowerman asking for witnesses to come forward. I feel like they're trying to build a case for past abuse, and I have enough faith in Bowerman that he isn't just randomly fishing based on nothing...

I did have a close look at all the pictures of DeOrr I could find, and in a few he looks to have faint bruises on his head, but of course kids get bruises for perfectly innocent reasons so it doesn't necessarily mean anything. But if someone had lost their temper with him and hit him hard on the head, that could certainly cause death and would explain why they felt the need to fake his disappearance. And remember the day after Bowerman asked witnesses to come forward, he said he'd already had 6 phoecalls. And call me cynical, but I really doubt they were all just calls from people gushing about what good parents J and V are.

I cannot think of another reason he would make that request. Although I cannot think of a well known case off hand that publicized a similiar request, a few years ago a neighbor of mine died under mysterious circumstances and I had three officers come to my apartment and ask me dozens of questions about my observations of the deceased's interaction with her boyfriend. If I ever heard fighting screaming etc and more specific about how they interacted. I thought of that parallel immediately. Abusers come in all shapes and sizes from all walks of life and husbands wives can fool people for years just like parents.

As for SB, I agree he was giving subtle clues. Without a body, prosecutor's may have to work harder for a conviction. Comparing this case to Lonzie Bs where the mother had a known drug history, lived a risky life, and failed to provide a stable environment for children, it would seem from the outside that they have their work cut out for them.

 

[persimmon]

Yes, I recall what the pics were (and did have a feeling that I should take screenshots, but unfortunately did not do it, and then, poof! they were gone). I worry I would be breaking the rules of this forum by describing something to which there are no longer any links/pics.

Based on your response, I can guess. It would seem that a mother whose child just went missing wouldn't have the wherewithall or energy to prioritize changing FB pics of her missing son. That would not be on my list of priorities.

 

[JuJulio]

I was not surprised that she or DeOrr's father would have removed these particular pictures. But I do hope the authorities have been able to recover & review them as part of their investigation.

Based on your response, I can guess. It would seem that a mother whose child just went missing wouldn't have the wherewithall or energy to prioritize changing FB pics of her missing son. That would not be on my list of priorities.

 

[Tr.]

So in the absence of a court order for a request for the company to SEND a ping----the most we can do to acquire fresh data is to attempt to contact the phone via call/text and hope for updated location information. And as always- the phone could now be left behind, powered down, battery removed etc. There is NO guarantee that the phones LAT/LONG location is current.

Thanks. Do you know if momentary loss of signal causes a ping to occur?

 

[Deleted member 102539]

It's interesting that he thinks JM's call could be evidence.

Maybe because when JM called then she was somehow distracted by someone around her (GGP?) and at the same time (and in addition) the call of VDK came through. There maybe interesting voice analysis of exactly HER call now for evidence. :thinking:

 

[persimmon]

Maybe because when JM called then she was somehow distracted by someone around her (GGP?) and at the same time (and in addition) the call of VDK came through. There maybe interesting voice analysis of exactly HER call now for evidence. :thinking:

Or maybe it could be used to demonstrate deception from the onset. That is very interesting that SB made that statement at that point. I would think they possibly may have shown deception on their polygraphs by then. Regardless, I'm growing very confused about SBs MO.

 

[ILOKAL]

IF, for example, a broad (which they are) control question on their polygraph was "Except for the times we discussed, have you ever spanked DeOrr?", to which they answered "no", produced a high physiological reaction, which would be indicative of lying, Bowerman may have decided to pursue that by asking for people who have observed the parents' interaction with DeOrr to come forward. And, as the polygraph test continued with the relevant questions, about if they know what happened to DeOrr and where he was, were also answered "no", but those answers did NOT cause any significant rise in physiological reactions (because they truly DON'T know), that would, IMO, cause the total polygraph test results to be inconclusive. This is based on what I have read at the links I have previously posted on this thread. Also, keep in mind, that an answer of "no" to the broad control question would not necessarily mean they had, in fact, previously spanked DeOrr, but could be the result of their concern over the question itself and how it might portray them, and that concern could also cause the same physiological reaction, even though they truly HAD never spanked DeOrr (except any times that were disclosed during the Pre-test interview). JMOO, of course.

 

[pepelepolecat]

It has been discussed that inconclusive polys and changing stories led to the parents being named as suspects. But, since all 4 took polys that were inconclusive and all 4 have given multiple statements in which bits and pieces of the story changes, why then are they not all named as suspects?

Because the sheriff has more than just inconclusive polys and changing stories. imo.

 

[persimmon]

Maybe because when JM called then she was somehow distracted by someone around her (GGP?) and at the same time (and in addition) the call of VDK came through. There maybe interesting voice analysis of exactly HER call now for evidence. :thinking:

According to the following link:

http://www.firstamendmentcenter.org/911-recordings-transcripts-state-statutes

911 calls are public record and with few exceptions (state law) they cannot be withheld under a normal records request. This site lists all states and describes what, if any restrictions are enforced to maintain privacy of 911 calls and Idaho has none listed.

I guess if pressed they would have to release those calls.

Rethinking SBs statement, I think that the 911 call would simply be evidence because a crime occured but I don't think he intended to link that specifically to Jessica. Looking at Bessie's post on what constitutes evidence, I can see it as possibly covered in the definition.

 

[desert-blue]

I feel the same way about Bowerman asking for witnesses to come forward. I feel like they're trying to build a case for past abuse, and I have enough faith in Bowerman that he isn't just randomly fishing based on nothing...

I did have a close look at all the pictures of DeOrr I could find, and in a few he looks to have faint bruises on his head, but of course kids get bruises for perfectly innocent reasons so it doesn't necessarily mean anything. But if someone had lost their temper with him and hit him hard on the head, that could certainly cause death and would explain why they felt the need to fake his disappearance. And remember the day after Bowerman asked witnesses to come forward, he said he'd already had 6 phoecalls. And call me cynical, but I really doubt they were all just calls from people gushing about what good parents J and V are.

Also, we know Bowerman isn't the type who wants to sift through a bunch of false tips and leads. The fact that he asked the public to come forward and contact his office with specific information is very telling, IMO. Earlier in the case, he requested that folks with tips about possible sightings NOT call his office but contact their local police departments instead and have them look into it. He didn't want a flood of tips about sightings because he knew DeOrr hadn't been abducted.

 

[desert-blue]

According to the following link:

http://www.firstamendmentcenter.org/911-recordings-transcripts-state-statutes

911 calls are public record and with few exceptions (state law) they cannot be withheld under a normal records request. This site lists all states and describes what, if any restrictions are enforced to maintain privacy of 911 calls and Idaho has none listed.

I guess if pressed they would have to release those calls.

Rethinking SBs statement, I think that the 911 call would simply be evidence because a crime occured but I don't think he intended to link that specifically to Jessica. Looking at Bessie's post on what constitutes evidence, I can see it as possibly covered in the definition.

One of those exceptions in Idaho is if the public record request is part of an on-going investigation. I'm pretty sure if someone submitted a public records request for any of the 911 calls today, the request would be denied, based on Bowerman's comments.

 

[OSpyder]

FWIW: Klein has been paid in full.

https://www.facebook.com/KleinInvestigations/posts/955921657823752

 

[ConcernedCitizenID]

FWIW: Klein has been paid in full.

https://www.facebook.com/KleinInvestigations/posts/955921657823752

There are a few interesting comments from family members, too...