ID - DeOrr Kunz Jr, 2, Timber Creek Campground, 10 July 2015 - #21

[Roselvr]

If I'm not mistaken, Bowerman had previously said that each parent were given four polygraphs. I don't have that source but I'm pretty sure he said that.

There are several different types of polygraphs so it's possible they weren't given the same type each time.

From the Q&A
Klein Investigations and Consulting

Let's be clear - there has been 9 polygraph tests given to the parents, and four to the other two on the camp grounds. There has NEVER been any contradiction in this. As well, the parents have given over 11 statements to LE, FBI and our firm. Any other polygraph tests at this point would be a waste of time.
Unlike · Reply · 25 · February 2 at 1:46pm

 

[Donjeta]

Kari'smom's question, "have you ever stolen anything?" was a control question which are as broad as possible. They are intended to concern the examinee so much (which is what the examiner wants), that the physiological reaction indicates deception to the same degree as an untruthful answer to the relevant questions will. That's why control questions are so broad. They are questions that will worry the examinee either because they really cannot answer "no" or because they are worried about answering "no". The irrelevant questions, "Is you name Susie?" and "Is today Tuesday?" are expected to not have a physiological response at all and are used as the baseline. This is all explained in the links I provided a few pages back. No Deception is Indicated when the physiological response to the control questions is much greater than the physiological response to the relevant questions. I hope that makes sense. Deception IS indicated when the physiological response to the control questions is like the physiological response to the relevant questions.

Something about this bothers me and I'm glad that polygraphs aren't usually admissible in court, because I think it's quite likely that many innocent people are more worried about responding to the relevant questions, regardless of if they know what happened. Everyone with half a brain can tell that "do you know what happened to Deorr" is The Question that you shouldn't fail. And if you care about Deorr at all, the question might make you more anxious simply because you are once again reminded that Deorr is missing and something dreadful has happened to him.

I think they can be useful in getting the people to respond to interesting questions and eliciting confessions in the hands of skillful investigators. But the thought that innocent people would be stressed about responding to questions about, say, some irrelevant crimes that no one is investigating, and remain carefree, physiologically unemotional and unstressed while responding to the relevant questions about a crime that they're overall very emotionally distressed about - it just doesn't seem obvious to me. If you read about the science behind the polygraph you might be nervous also because you know there's the possibility of getting a false result and getting suspected for a crime you didn't commit.

Sure, if people who changed their stories multiple times fail the polygraph, I'm often inclined to think they could have failed for a reason. But the whole theory behind the polygraph examinations seems like it's on a shaky ground and the reliability evidence is not too impressive so there would be a number of false convictions if it was used in the court a lot.

ETA: I do believe the machines are pretty reliable in detecting heightened physiological responses that are commonly associated with nervousness, it's just that the physiological reactions and nervousness are not always consequences of lying.

Some form of guilty knowledge test might work better but I'm not sure it could be used here because the examiners need to have some information that only the police and the guilty party know (eg. what the murder weapon was, or some details about the crime scene), and if they don't know what happened to Deorr, it might be impossible to design such a test.

 

[desert-blue]

Maybe she didn't want people like me looking for bruises. Make all the pics private, then you can select only the best ones to release to the public.

Could this be added to the "DeOrr was on the camping trip" argument? The lack of any reliable testimony of anyone actually seeing the child still troubles me, but if he was deceased before the trip and the trip was a ruse, wouldn't the parents have thought to make their FB accounts private before leaving Idaho Falls? (or at least any photos they didn't want seen)

 

[Donjeta]

Could this be added to the "DeOrr was on the camping trip" argument? The lack of any reliable testimony of anyone actually seeing the child still troubles me, but if he was deceased before the trip and the trip was a ruse, wouldn't the parents have thought to make their FB accounts private before leaving Idaho Falls?

That might be suspicious though.
"Your FB used to be public... why did you make it private just before the disappearance?"

"Umm.... it was... we just... just a coincidence... No reason really..."

 

[desert-blue]

That might be suspicious though.
"Your FB used to be public... why did you make it private just before the disappearance?"

"Umm.... it was... we just... just a coincidence... No reason really..."

True. I edited my original post - I meant the photos mainly, if there were any they didn't want the whole world to see. I wasn't very clear. But still, the timing of any changes to their FB accounts might be suspicious if they were done right before the trip, I suppose. As an investigator, I'd be interested in any changes that were made AFTER the disappearance as well (deleted photos, posts, etc.).

 

[kimi_SFC]

True. I edited my original post - I meant the photos mainly, if there were any they didn't want the whole world to see. I wasn't very clear. But still, the timing of any changes to their FB accounts might be suspicious if they were done right before the trip, I suppose. As an investigator, I'd be interested in any changes that were made AFTER the disappearance as well (deleted photos, posts, etc.).

IME, the images may just no longer be visible to the public. Privacy settings may have been changed (to "Friends Only" or "Only Me"). That said, we can rest assured all activity (including images stored and deletions) are stored on the servers of the social media providers.

A warrant would allow LE access, but this takes time. Computer forensics specialists do incredible work in this realm.

Usually quietly. We don't hear about it until it's time.

:twocents:

:judge:


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[ILOKAL]

Does anyone besides me wonder how Klein was able to arrive at the conclusion, 4-6 months after DeOrr disappeared, that he had not been abducted (kidnapped) nor taken by an animal? How could these possibilities have been investigated after so much time had passed?

 

[sonjay]

Does anyone besides me wonder how Klein was able to arrive at the conclusion, 4-6 months after DeOrr disappeared, that he had not been abducted (kidnapped) nor taken by an animal? How could these possibilities have been investigated after so much time had passed?

One way that occurs to me would be if there's physical evidence of, say, homicide by a named suspect, then that would likely lead one to rule out stranger abduction or animal predation with some degree of confidence.

 

[The Apparition]

Does anyone besides me wonder how Klein was able to arrive at the conclusion, 4-6 months after DeOrr disappeared, that he had not been abducted (kidnapped) nor taken by an animal? How could these possibilities have been investigated after so much time had passed?

I assume he and LE have found some damning evidence and quite possible testimony as well. He did say basically Deorr is deceased and all that is left to figure out is why not how. If you know someone is deceased it stands to reason they weren't abducted or taken by animals. Remember items have been seized and sent to the FBI crime lab. There is a great chance LE and the PI know information that isn't being released at this time. I still feel LE wants to find a body before they make arrests. Assuming that day comes to pass lots of additional information will be released.

Klein can speak much more freely as he isn't an actual LE officer. As much as we the general public want information LE has very little incentive to release details of their investigation until charges are brought.

 

[DatelineFan]

The Apparition, you have great posts here! Thank you!

 

[Rayemonde]

One way that occurs to me would be if there's physical evidence of, say, homicide by a named suspect, then that would likely lead one to rule out stranger abduction or animal predation with some degree of confidence.

:yes:

 

[The Apparition]

Thanks so much DatelineFan. Believe me there is lots of quality work done on this board (yourself included) I'm just happy to be part of the discussions.

 

[persimmon]

IME, the images may just no longer be visible to the public. Privacy settings may have been changed (to "Friends Only" or "Only Me"). That said, we can rest assured all activity (including images stored and deletions) are stored on the servers of the social media providers.

A warrant would allow LE access, but this takes time. Computer forensics specialists do incredible work in this realm.

Usually quietly. We don't hear about it until it's time.

:twocents:

:judge:


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Agreed and I bet they have, although some of these companies don't always just hand over information. Twitter received a ton of backlash for doing so and privacy issues are politically charged. That said, I hope they willingly submitted to a search of their computers because that would provide the best information. Their phones were analyzed without a warrant so that gave forensic teams carte blanche to dig all around and theorectically use anything they found.

She may have simply gone private but for someone so comcerned with image I am surprised she didn't think about how odd it looks to the public to see pics of DeOrr only added after he disappeared. Jmo

 

[ILOKAL]

One way that occurs to me would be if there's physical evidence of, say, homicide by a named suspect, then that would likely lead one to rule out stranger abduction or animal predation with some degree of confidence.

If any biological evidence had been found, and identified, that would seem to be a smoking gun, IMO. Yet I just don't get the impression from Bowerman OR Klein that there is anything even CLOSE to a smoking gun. If there WAS such a smoking gun and it identified (somehow) that the parents are responsible for DeOrr's disappearance, surely LE would use that to coax a confession and to at least have them fail a polygraph. jmoo

 

[sonjay]

If any biological evidence had been found, and identified, that would seem to be a smoking gun, IMO. Yet I just don't get the impression from Bowerman OR Klein that there is anything even CLOSE to a smoking gun. If there WAS such a smoking gun and it identified (somehow) that the parents are responsible for DeOrr's disappearance, surely LE would use that to coax a confession and to at least have them fail a polygraph. jmoo

There is a Constitution in this country, and LE can't force a confession.

The two named suspects have failed -- multiple times -- key questions on their polygraphs.

LE does not share with the public everything they have or know.

 

[persimmon]

I assume he and LE have found some damning evidence and quite possible testimony as well. He did say basically Deorr is deceased and all that is left to figure out is why not how. If you know someone is deceased it stands to reason they weren't abducted or taken by animals. Remember items have been seized and sent to the FBI crime lab. There is a great chance LE and the PI know information that isn't being released at this time. I still feel LE wants to find a body before they make arrests. Assuming that day comes to pass lots of additional information will be released.

Klein can speak much more freely as he isn't an actual LE officer. As much as we the general public want information LE has very little incentive to release details of their investigation until charges are brought.

I agree that they are really hoping to find the body before filing charges. SB stated that for him the real shift in his opinion happened mid January after the FBI completed their analyses of some of the key data collected by LE. At that time, SB et al would have a new set of eyes that may have provided further evidence from existing information. Jmo but that may have shined the light on several areas, items, and statements that might have seemed less important or irrelevant prior to that time.

I also sense that Klein is extending professional courtesy and efforts toward resolution by remaining silent at this point. He sas very vocal and then abruptly, he has changed. He could talk but If SB et all requested he not...then his silence demonstrates he wants to be a part of the solution. Jmo

 

[Rayemonde]

They don't even need a smoking gun. Plenty of people are convicted from circumstantial evidence.

 

[Rayemonde]

I don't believe for a second that SB really just changed his mind about the situation in mid-january. Half the nation could tell the parents were lying about what happened well before that, and I would hope that being a sheriff he would have a half-decent hinky-meter himself. Jmo.

 

[desert-blue]

If any biological evidence had been found, and identified, that would seem to be a smoking gun, IMO. Yet I just don't get the impression from Bowerman OR Klein that there is anything even CLOSE to a smoking gun. If there WAS such a smoking gun and it identified (somehow) that the parents are responsible for DeOrr's disappearance, surely LE would use that to coax a confession and to at least have them fail a polygraph. jmoo

I'm sure LE has tried to get a confession, but it sounds like the parents aren't interested in telling the truth. It seems like a game to them.

 

[desert-blue]

I don't believe for a second that SB really just changed his mind about the situation in mid-january. Half the nation could tell the parents were lying about what happened well before that, and I would hope that being a sheriff he would have a half-decent hinky-meter himself. Jmo.

Yes, the investigation changed direction very early on. I think we now have a pretty good idea of where it was headed.