ID - DeOrr Kunz Jr, 2, Timber Creek Campground, 10 July 2015 - #21

[ZooSleuth]

Right, but a confession can be and often is "coaxed", which is the term I used.

I've read nothing that says the parents have "failed" key questions on their polygraphs. Do you have a link in support of that statement?

Indeed, LE does not share with the public all they have or know, no matter how much or how little.

Imo

The way I see it is if you're being less than truthful on a question, you're lying about something.

I don't know if I would use the word "failed" when referring to individual questions on a polygraph, but either way it's pretty much the same thing IMO. You either lie or you don't on the answer to a question, and if you lied, you "failed" that question.

 

[neesaki]

I don't want to get into this discussion, but just want to point out that he did actually use the word "failed" in his interview with Tricia.

03:17
TG: Are you certain that there’s no way Deorr could be in the water anywhere? That’s a big question that a lot of people have because …Couldn’t Deorr’s body be stuck under a rock or just possibly something like that happened?

03:35
SB: You know I dwelled on that fact for a long time but I have to trust the experts. They say when both people failed the same questions multiple times, there is something there and they’re being less than truthful, so I have to trust the experts.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...-**NO-DISCUSSION-quot&p=12319129#post12319129

Well I sure missed that, thanks ! So they failed all the poly's, how else could it be interpreted?

 

[ZooSleuth]

Well I sure missed that, thanks ! So they failed all the poly's, how else could it be interpreted?

Not trying to argue over this, but I think to fail a poly you would have to lie on almost every question, which is not what happened. He said they failed on a few questions, not the entire poly. The questions they failed on were the important ones though, so they may as well say they failed the poly, but technically speaking I don't think it's correct to say they failed the entire poly.

 

[Donjeta]

Yeah and he sort of uses deceptive too, here.

19:41
TG: Exactly! One of our members said, “I noticed in your first comment this week, regarding the parents, you originally said they had been deceptive and then you changed that to less than truthful. Can you explain the reason for that change in wording?” Now, there could be absolutely no reason but that’s our Websleuths members, they get right down to the nitty gritty and really want the littlest details.

20:07
SB: Absolutely. I didn’t want them to think their whole polygraph was deceptive. It wasn’t. They passed portions of it, but the portions on whether they knew where Deorr was or knew what happened to him, they were not being…they were being less than truthful . So that’s why I changed it. I didn’t want them to think…normally you think when someone is deceptive everything they told you is a lie but that’s not the case.

He didn't want the parents to think the whole polygraph was deceptive, but it is implied that parts of it were indeed deceptive.

JMO I think this is splitting hairs about whether he used the word deceptive or failed or less than truthful. It's all the same to me. The polygraph results don't make any distinction between failed or deceptive or less than truthful, it's either a significant physiological response or not.

I think the point is that he wants the parents to think he trusts some of what they said. Maybe hoping to keep lines of communication open and get one of them to maybe spill the story.

 

[ILOKAL]

Well I sure missed that, thanks ! So they failed all the poly's, how else could it be interpreted?

Not so fast:

http://kfor.com/2016/01/25/parents-of-missing-idaho-toddler-named-as-suspects-in-his-disappearance/

 

[ILOKAL]

Not trying to argue over this, but I think to fail a poly you would have to lie on almost every question, which is not what happened. He said they failed on a few questions, not the entire poly. The questions they failed on were the important ones though, so they may as well say they failed the poly, but technically speaking I don't think it's correct to say they failed the entire poly.

I posted a link below which seems to be what Bowerman had said consistently (just by the sheer number of links with the same exact statement). He actually said in ALL those articles that their answers to some of the important questions were "inconclusive".

 

[neesaki]

Not trying to argue over this, but I think to fail a poly you would have to lie on almost every question, which is not what happened. He said they failed on a few questions, not the entire poly. The questions they failed on were the important ones though, so they may as well say they failed the poly, but technically speaking I don't think it's correct to say they failed the entire poly.

According to my earlier post with link that isn't the case, one or more key questions are all it takes. That said, I'm about to get to where Claire is at this point , lol.

 

[ILOKAL]

Yeah and he sort of uses deceptive too, here.



He didn't want the parents to think the whole polygraph was deceptive, but it is implied that parts of it were indeed deceptive.

JMO I think this is splitting hairs about whether he used the word deceptive or failed or less than truthful. It's all the same to me. The polygraph results don't make any distinction between failed or deceptive or less than truthful, it's either a significant physiological response or not.

I think the point is that he wants the parents to think he trusts some of what they said. Maybe hoping to keep lines of communication open and get one of them to maybe spill the story.

Respectfully, the polygraph results DO make a distinction. No need for me to list them again.

 

[ClaireNC]

According to my earlier post with link that isn't the case, one or more key questions are all it takes. That said, I'm about to get to where Claire is at this point , lol.

Yeah, it's frustrating. In the article linked above it is not a direct quote from Bowerman, but the reporter's interpretation of what the sheriff said.

 

[ILOKAL]

Does less than truthful mean passing?

It's not my term, it's Bowerman's term. He said their answers to important questions were inconclusive.

http://kfor.com/2016/01/25/parents-of-missing-idaho-toddler-named-as-suspects-in-his-disappearance/

 

[ZooSleuth]

I posted a link below which seems to be what Bowerman had said consistently (just be the sheer number of links with the same exact statement). He actually said in ALL those articles that their answers to some of the important questions were "inconclusive".

Not doubting you, but can you please link another source please that says they were inconclusive on specific questions? This article is 11 sentences long and it doesn't give a direct quote from Bowerman saying that. This is the first I have read where he says their answers to those specific questions were inconclusive. I just went through a bunch of articles and I saw direct quotes of him saying "less than truthful" on those questions numerous times.

 

[ILOKAL]

Not doubting you, but can you please link another source please that says they were inconclusive on specific questions? This article is 11 sentences long and it doesn't give a direct quote from Bowerman saying that. This is the first I have read where he says their answers to those specific questions were inconclusive. I just went through a bunch of articles and I saw direct quotes of him saying "less than truthful" on those questions numerous times.

Not a problem. I simply did a Google search and every article on the entire page had the same information. I just grabbed the top one. Maybe Bowerman did an edit like he did when he first used "deceptive" and then changed it to "less than truthful". I dunno.

Here's the second one that came up:

http://kfor.com/2016/01/25/parents-of-missing-idaho-toddler-named-as-suspects-in-his-disappearance/

Also notice, the last sentence says Bowerman said IR and GGFA's polys ALSO came back inconclusive, which indicates all of their polygraphs came back inconclusive. imo

 

[ZooSleuth]

@ILOKAL thank you for looking, but you just linked the exact same article.

 

[Dee10]

Personally, I don't care what term(s) he uses, he has more than explained what he means regarding the polys on numerous occasions and ways. I think it's pretty clear the parents failed to tell the truth on the most important questions. I'll take the Sheriff's word on this.

This situation reminds of "a rose is still a rose by any other name."

 

[bluesneakers]

Personally, I don't care what term(s) he uses, he has more than explained what he means regarding the polys on numerous occasions and ways. I think it's pretty clear the parents failed to tell the truth on the most important questions. I'll take the Sheriff's word on this.

This situation reminds of "a rose is still a rose by any name."

Exactly.

Dishonest, deceitful, changing their stories. being less than truthful, fibbing... it all means not telling the truth, and lying is lying.

 

[Rayemonde]

I thought it was interesting that Vilt said the parents told him LE had said not to offer a reward, but LE said that wasn't true. I don't think Vilt was lying about that. I also thought it was interesting that Kunz's attorney said Kunz had spent a lot of money hiring Klein, but Klein said that wasn't true. If the attorney just got that wrong, then why hasn't Kunz corrected him or clarified the issue?

IMO those are two good examples of the parents lying.

 

[LookingForClues]

I'm sure that all of us are looking forward to getting more information from LE to help us figure out what happened. And I'm certain that every one of us, despite our disagreements, really want justice for little DeOrr. :daisy:

 

[ZooSleuth]

<snip to save space>

Also notice, the last sentence says Bowerman said IR and GGFA's polys ALSO came back inconclusive, which indicates all of their polygraphs came back inconclusive. imo

RSBM. Yes, we all know they all came back inconclusive, but GGP's and IR's were inconclusive for clearly different reasons than the parent's. GGP's and IR's were inconclusive to the point where you can't tell anything from their tests, so they might as well not exist because they are of no use. The parent's tests were inconclusive because they were being both truthful and less than truthful. Two WAY different things IMO.

 

[persimmon]

SB indicated that after the FBIs analysis of the data conferred with his department's reading of deception, on not one but 3 to 4 different occassions and an untold number of verbal interviews wherein stories changed etc that the parents were given an opportunity to explain themselves. I think that was the closest they came to trying to force a confession. Moreover, he indicated that when confronted with the facts of deception, the parents ceased to demonstrate cooperation. That seems to be where things stand.

I believe SB and his team ruled out early on the notions of animal or stranger predator but they were still faced with four individuals who could have been responsible. He cannot know everything especially when people misdirect his investigation. But they have arrived at where they are after considerable efforts to make sense of the situation based on their findings.

He has indicated there was physical evidence along with the behavioral so something or perhaps many things helped them arrive where we stand. I believe his heart in the right place and he wants justice for DeOrr which is why he is moving slowly and not letting ego get involved. Reality and the well publicized Anthony trial proves that in an arena of deception there is room for failure leading to no justice for DeOrr. He's not on trial so picking apart his statements is not going to help. He made it clear who the suspects are and he's working hard to prove that. Imo thats what we want and we should be proud that individuals like him exist in this media driven ego loud world. All moo but I believe based on the facts we currently have.

 

[Lillahazel]

The calmness in JM's 911 call doesn't raise flags for me. I overreact to just about everything related to safety with children. However when I was in labor with my child there were some major complications for my unborn baby caused by blood pressure. They even brought the hospital bishop up to be with my husband. In that panic moment I somehow forced myself to be completely calm because I knew I could save him by lowering my blood pressure. Which I did. I could see a 911 call being somewhat calm if it means getting the police there sooner.

With that said I am extremely bothered by the lack of urgency and silence and what sounds like some coaching in the background with JM's call. Someone a while back had the perfect analogy that it sounded like she was ordering a pizza.