ID - DeOrr Kunz Jr, 2, Timber Creek Campground, 10 July 2015 - #22

[The Apparition]

I am not here to tell people what to do or post, obviously. I would say to borrow/paraphrase Klein, we have entered into stage 3 of our investigation on this board. Basically many people are just speculating at this time or going back over old info trying to come up with new theories. Generally it's not fair to randomly accuse people of drug use (or cooking in my case), child abuse etc, but I think the suspects in this case have certainly opened themselves up to this kind of speculation. Many people feel they know more than they are telling so that breeds wild speculation. The sheriff certainly added some diesel to the fire by asking people to come forward with observations of the parents and Deorr.

 

[ZooSleuth]

Though it has been discussed a lot as to why JM's ex might have full custody of her young children, it has never been determined. People have cited that one of her friends explained it on FB that she decided that her kids could have a better life with him. To that, I say, if JM wouldn't be straight with her friends, family, LE and the public about the disappearance of her toddler, why would she be straight with friends about why she has no custody. I don't believe the rumors of what she has said, because I don't believe anything she says. I would believe her ex if HE said it.

Also, the idea that a 20-something mom starting out in life would willingly relinquish all custody to a 20-something then-single dad, also just starting out in life, because he could provide such a better life is highly suspect to me. They were the same--unless she had severe problems that would stop her from being an adequate mother. (Given what has happened, that wouldn't shock me I guess.)

I personally DO think it's pretty significant in this missing child's case that one of the two suspects either lost or gave up custody of her other young, adorable children. It is counter to what most even semi-capable mothers would choose and could point to a disinterest in being a mother. IMO.


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I agree. It's not just counter to semi-capable mothers, I also see incapable mothers fight tooth and nail for custody of their kids. I have never heard of a situation like JM's before, which leads me to believe there is an unknown we are not aware of.

 

[Rayemonde]

I'm about 90% sure in Wisconsin spanking is the only form of physical disapline that is allowed and it can't leave a mark.

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I'm not sure about Idaho, though... When I read about schools hitting kids with wooden paddles it made me wonder if leaving bruises is classed as child abuse in Idaho, or can it be part of acceptable discipline? Is it legal there?

 

[Lillahazel]

I have to disagree with all the talk about the "bruise" on his head. I have two boys and there are times I am afraid to take them in public because of bumps, bruises, black eyes, I don't want people looking at me sidways. I have never hit or spanked my children for that matter and I would be heartbroken if people saw the blackeye my lil one got from wacking it on the table and thought I hurt him.

Furthermore, my older son has a disorder with a broad range of suckiness and bruises quite easily. I guess what I'm trying to say is that it's a slippery slope to say these things based on a picture. I'm more concerned with S.B. appealing to the public about how they may have treated him.

I agree accidents can and will happen to a toddler with even the best supervision. On the plus side in your circumstance you would pass a poly and you're not a suspect in your child's disappearance.

 

[pepelepolecat]

I'm not sure about Idaho, though... When I read about schools hitting kids with wooden paddles it made me wonder if leaving bruises is classed as child abuse in Idaho, or can it be part of acceptable discipline? Is it legal there?

Leaving bruises or marks is considered child abuse.
http://healthandwelfare.idaho.gov/Portals/0/Children/AbuseNeglect/ItShouldntHurtToBeAChild.pdf

The "physical abuse risk factors" further down the link are interesting.

 

[neesaki]

I assume, he has sucked of the ball, which he holds in his hand? The colour is somehow the same. BUT why did he: hunger, thirst, as a consolation ...?

I hadn't thought of that, to me it looks as though he's been eating red candy or maybe red soda pop or kool aid, and it stained his face. Maybe if I could see a close up.

 

[skinnycat]

If the sheriff the FBI and the private investigators are all wrong, then what happened to the ever so cute Deorr Kunz Jr.

I personally feel that the sheriff the FBI and the private investigators are all on the right track, and have been since the first 911 call made by GGP,

 

[MBK]

I The sheriff certainly added some diesel to the fire by asking people to come forward with observations of the parents and Deorr.

BBM.

Dude, you're good! Cheers.

 

[Butler]

I agree. It's not just counter to semi-capable mothers, I also see incapable mothers fight tooth and nail for custody of their kids. I have never heard of a situation like JM's before, which leads me to believe there is an unknown we are not aware of.

I just don't see it as usual. We don't have an official record of what their custody agreement is but it very well could be shared custody with the children physically living with the father. There was a statement by VDK father that VDK & JM along with DeOrr lived with him at one point. Maybe there wasn't room for three children, maybe the ex-husband felt his living situation was more stable than JM not being able to provide a home for the children. There are pictures of all three children on JM's facebook page so it's not as though she was unable to see them or spend time with them. Far different story than her being an incapable mother.

I don't know what happened at that campsite. All I know is four adults and one child went up there and only the four adults came back down. Hopefully DeOrr will be found this summer. It will be closer to summer before LE can get back up there for a ground search. Some of the mountains up there have snow year round. I also know there isn't a record of official allegations of child abuse regarding any of the children. It would show up as a sealed case on the repository and there isn't a sealed case for JM. There isn't a hint of a drug arrest either. Just civil judgements and driving cases.

 

[persimmon]

What is your source that JM is a drug user? There is nothing in any official record that indicates drug use by JM.

What is your source that she and her husband decided it was best for the kids?

 

[persimmon]

I agree accidents can and will happen to a toddler with even the best supervision. On the plus side in your circumstance you would pass a poly and you're not a suspect in your child's disappearance.

That is the difference! We are speculating to some degree but personally I believe that it's far more likely these parents are physically abusive then it is they belong to an underground pedo ring or DeOrr eloped. There are only so many possibilities and SB made a strong suggestion with his recent request.

 

[persimmon]

I just don't see it as usual. We don't have an official record of what their custody agreement is but it very well could be shared custody with the children physically living with the father. There was a statement by VDK father that VDK & JM along with DeOrr lived with him at one point. Maybe there wasn't room for three children, maybe the ex-husband felt his living situation was more stable than JM not being able to provide a home for the children. There are pictures of all three children on JM's facebook page so it's not as though she was unable to see them or spend time with them. Far different story than her being an incapable mother.

I don't know what happened at that campsite. All I know is four adults and one child went up there and only the four adults came back down. Hopefully DeOrr will be found this summer. It will be closer to summer before LE can get back up there for a ground search. Some of the mountains up there have snow year round. I also know there isn't a record of official allegations of child abuse regarding any of the children. It would show up as a sealed case on the repository and there isn't a sealed case for JM. There isn't a hint of a drug arrest either. Just civil judgements and driving cases.

There are sealed sections of her divorce proceedings.

 

[Hoosier952]

Just this (bbm):

29th January 2016:

"We’ve asked the public to come forward. I had four or five telephone calls this morning from individuals who either know Mom and Dad and the child and have seen them either interact in the past or they’ve overheard something or they think they can provide information."

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...Timelines-and-Maps-**NO-DISCUSSION-quot/page4

http://www.eastidahonews.com/2016/01/sheriff-i-just-pray-little-deorr-will-be-found/

Personally, reading between the lines I think LE have had allegations of abuse and are looking for further witnesses to build a strong case for this. JMO.

I italicized the bolded and snipped for space.

I don't think 4 or 5 people called to say they were wonderful parents. How many people would feel the need to call in and say "hey, I see them from time to time and they act like totally normal parents"? Close friends and family can probably be excluded from these phone calls. I'm sure they've been questioned.

 

[K.L.Puyallup]

I'm sort of a newbie here. I've only ever commented on one other case that was local to me. I know that we're limited to MSM links as far as verified accusations/facts go. What's the accepted policy on seeing comments on links, and asking fellow sluethers if there's any accepted validity to them?
I hope it didn't appear that I was accusing JM of drug use. I did try to phrase my comments as questions, and was genuinely curious if the last 21 threads addressed the possibility of drug use, and if there was any conclusive appropriate evidence to support it.

"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by ignorance."

 

[courtneyb]

Though it has been discussed a lot as to why JM's ex might have full custody of her young children, it has never been determined. People have cited that one of her friends explained it on FB that she decided that her kids could have a better life with him. To that, I say, if JM wouldn't be straight with her friends, family, LE and the public about the disappearance of her toddler, why would she be straight with friends about why she has no custody. I don't believe the rumors of what she has said, because I don't believe anything she says. I would believe her ex if HE said it.

Also, the idea that a 20-something mom starting out in life would willingly relinquish all custody to a 20-something then-single dad, also just starting out in life, because he could provide such a better life is highly suspect to me. They were the same--unless she had severe problems that would stop her from being an adequate mother. (Given what has happened, that wouldn't shock me I guess.)

I personally DO think it's pretty significant in this missing child's case that one of the two suspects either lost or gave up custody of her other young, adorable children. It is counter to what most even semi-capable mothers would choose and could point to a disinterest in being a mother. IMO.


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Exactly! Most 20-year-olds still have that, "that's mine!" mentality about everything. I'm more disturbed by the idea that she gave up her two children willingly, rather than fighting for them and having them taken away. That tells me that either she knew that if she fought for them in court, they would be taken away, or she didn't really want them. I'm sure there are the occasional 20-year-olds who are that altruistic that they would put what's best for their children ahead of what they want, but I think any 20-year-old who would do that, would have had two children in the first place that she knew she wouldn't be able to care for adequately. One child may be an accident, but a mother who truly is putting what's best for her children first, would've made sure that she didn't have a second child that she couldn't care for. I and much more inclined to believe that she simply did not want them, or did not want them badly enough to go to court and fight for them because she knew she was going to lose. And she did not want them badly enough to fix whatever it was that was preventing her from being able to get them a life as good as their dad could.


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[Onebest]

I hadn't thought of that, to me it looks as though he's been eating red candy or maybe red soda pop or kool aid, and it stained his face. Maybe if I could see a close up.

Babies get this quite often when teething. They drool, it irritates the face. Sometimes when sleeping their sheet gets wet from drool, rub on their face and it can make it worse. It can also be from sucking on a pacifier. Its very hard to put something on it that will help or stay on. Its quite normal and the parents should not be judged for this at all. JMO

 

[zencompass]

I believe that the L.E. are continuing to examine the minutiae of this case. Every day that I don't hear anything new I feel confident that they are building their case and pieces of the puzzle are falling together.

The fact that Sheriff Bowerman has reached out to the public to come forward with any information concerning the parents or little DeOrr shows me the direction this investigation is going.

I join with everyone here in hoping that the truth comes out in this case very soon.

Sending prayers of love and comfort to those who loved little DeOrr.

Sending prayers of strength and comfort to all of the law enforcement involved because they also care very deeply that this is solved.

http://www.eastidahonews.com/2016/01/sheriff-i-just-pray-little-deorr-will-be-found/

 

[Mountaingazer]

I agree. It's not just counter to semi-capable mothers, I also see incapable mothers fight tooth and nail for custody of their kids. I have never heard of a situation like JM's before, which leads me to believe there is an unknown we are not aware of.

This is purely anecdotal, and I am not saying it is the case here. But the only mothers I have known who have willingly signed over there rights did so because they had a current case with dcf/cps for those children and they were pregnant with another child. Signing over their rights closed the case with dcf/cps.

In the three different states these incidents occurred in (none of them Idaho so things could very well work differently there), the mother was now considered to have a "clean slate" when the baby was born and something new would have to happen for dcf/cps to become involved. If the new baby had been born while the mothers had open cases with the other children, they would automatically open a case with the new baby.

Again I have no clue if anything of the sort happened here, just sharing the only instances I have personally witnessed where the mother willingly signed over their rights. Two are cousins of mine and one is an old former childhood friend.

 

[Onebest]

I have to disagree with all the talk about the "bruise" on his head. I have two boys and there are times I am afraid to take them in public because of bumps, bruises, black eyes, I don't want people looking at me sidways. I have never hit or spanked my children for that matter and I would be heartbroken if people saw the blackeye my lil one got from wacking it on the table and thought I hurt him.

Furthermore, my older son has a disorder with a broad range of suckiness and bruises quite easily. I guess what I'm trying to say is that it's a slippery slope to say these things based on a picture. I'm more concerned with S.B. appealing to the public about how they may have treated him.

I totally agree. If there is abuse going on I don't think we will find it in the posted pics. Abuse pics are NOT usually posted, oh look I gave my kid a black eye.... They are hidden. My grandson who is now 8 believed he could fly as a baby. He would go around the house singing "I believe I can fly" and if you didn't watch him he would attempt to jump off the sofa or bed to prove it. His front teeth were knocked out playing ring around a rosy with his cousins. He was the kid on the end and as they swung around his poor little face connected with the wood coffee table. The dentist didn't even flinch she has seen it so often. So while I agree child abuse is HORRID and definitely needs to be researched in this case I don't think the recent posts are on the right train track. It needs to be from first hand information, a friend who witnessed it, a baby sitter, a family member, doctor or hospital. At least for me. JMO

 

[Lillahazel]

I'm sort of a newbie here. I've only ever commented on one other case that was local to me. I know that we're limited to MSM links as far as verified accusations/facts go. What's the accepted policy on seeing comments on links, and asking fellow sluethers if there's any accepted validity to them?
I hope it didn't appear that I was accusing JM of drug use. I did try to phrase my comments as questions, and was genuinely curious if the last 21 threads addressed the possibility of drug use, and if there was any conclusive appropriate evidence to support it.

"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by ignorance."

On that note from a fellow "newbie" is there any evidence of alcohol abuse from either parent? Other than all the gloating photos and posts of it on Facebook? Drugs keep coming up but alcohol can also cause quite a bit of rage in some people. I'm not sure if we are even allowed to speculate facebook posts but DK seems to have some rage in many posts. Don't get me wrong alcohol is a staple item on our camping trips but I'm more curious if there's information about past alcohol abuse (a DUI, etc). I'll emphasise that I have no proof or links just asking others if this has been addressed?