ID - DeOrr Kunz Jr, 2, Timber Creek Campground, 10 July 2015 - #24

[gliving]

The only hope is that DK and Jm didn't know about them. Remember this was Grandpa's camping spot. Now he might know about them but I believe this was the first time DK was up there. So he might not have known the lay of the land. Fingers crossed!

The family friends mentioned in this article about the film documentary have Leadore connections. And wood delivery connections. I have a feeling the parents are familiar with the area.

http://www.eastidahonews.com/2015/10/film-crew-producing-documentary-on-missing-deorr-kunz-jr/

 

[ConcernedCitizenID]

http://www.localnews8.com/news/private-investigator-cadaver-dog-proves-there-was-a-death/38307992
At the 3 minute mark in this interview Klein discusses the purchases made by VDK on Friday. It sounds to me like he's saying that they visited the store twice that day.
This is a key point that I used in coming up with my search site and incomplete time line theory. I wish I had the exact purchase times to confirm or adjust the theory...but that would probably not be something they could release.
I will say this...without all of the great info from PI's and news reporters questions I wouldn't have much of a theory as to where to look for Deorr. LE just doesn't have or won't come off of enough info to work with imo. I'm glad we have info from so many sources.

I'm so glad you posted this explanation (and your very detailed earlier post). Your theory BY FAR is the best and most thought out one on this thread. I think the two store stops (Klein says Vernal made two purchases but I, like you, believe there were two store stops) were part of the ruse to create an alibi. And for some reason, Klein calls the second store purchase (at least that's what it sounds like he is referring to) the "bombshell." I'd like to know your thoughts on that.

 

[ConcernedCitizenID]

The family friends mentioned in this article about the film documentary have Leadore connections. And wood delivery connections. I have a feeling the parents are familiar with the area.

http://www.eastidahonews.com/2015/10/film-crew-producing-documentary-on-missing-deorr-kunz-jr/

Also, Vernal is a truck driver. I'm sure he has knowledge of lots and lots of hidden areas...

 

[Cardinal47]

The two main reasons that I would consider this theory is that this would be something that they would both feel equally responsible for and therefore work as a team to conceal.
Secondly, they were camping out of the vehicle so a theory that supports something along the lines of an accident involving the truck would certainly fit..imo
And possibly something happening on the return trip to the camp as well.

I can't go along with that theory. I don't think anybody could/would spend the night in a truck with a dead child.

Then again they traveled in VDK's truck but slept in Grandpa's Suburban so maybe it could have happened that way.

Once I heard they stopped at the tavern on their way up to the campsite I immediately thought of Caylee and how Casey would put her in the trunk and go party.

When all that was going on I wondered how many ding a ling parents would pick up on doing that???

 

[ClaireNC]

So Klein confirmed that the last time Deorr was confirmed seen by someone other than the four was at 6:00 pm the night before. This leads me to believe that Deorr was left in the truck at the Stagecoach while they were there and when everyone returned to the campsite that night they realized he was not alive due to being left in the hot car at the Stagecoach. Next morning JM says she needs to go to Leadore for personal items and that's when they dispose of the body. JMO

Just to avoid confusion, the Silver Dollar Bar & Restaurant is the only bar & restaurant in Leadore. The Stage Stop is the convenience store.

For all we know that 6:00 pm sighting might have been in or near Idaho Falls. If it was, that would put them in Leadore at around 8:30 pm, which would fit with SB's comment about them "trying to get food" that night. (I think somebody posted the Silver Dollar stops selling food at 8:00 pm??) This is in the mountains in Idaho, it cools off pretty quickly at night at that elevation. I don't think it would have been hot in the car at that time of night.

Don't you think they would have noticed if he was dead when they came out of the bar? If so, why drive up to the campsite and then leave the next morning to go hide him? Doesn't make sense to me.

 

[citizen watch]

Just to avoid confusion, the Silver Dollar Bar & Restaurant is the only bar & restaurant in Leadore. The Stage Stop is the convenience store.

For all we know that 6:00 pm sighting might have been in or near Idaho Falls. If it was, that would put them in Leadore at around 8:30 pm, which would fit with SB's comment about them "trying to get food" that night. (I think somebody posted the Silver Dollar stops selling food at 8:00 pm??) This is in the mountains in Idaho, it cools off pretty quickly at night at that elevation. I don't think it would have been hot in the car at that time of night.

Don't you think they would have noticed if he was dead when they came out of the bar? If so, why drive up to the campsite and then leave the next morning to go hide him? Doesn't make sense to me.

Sorry about the name of the restaurant and nothing JM or VDK has done makes sense to me. JMO

 

[ConcernedCitizenID]

Just to avoid confusion, the Silver Dollar Bar & Restaurant is the only bar & restaurant in Leadore. The Stage Stop is the convenience store.

For all we know that 6:00 pm sighting might have been in or near Idaho Falls. If it was, that would put them in Leadore at around 8:30 pm, which would fit with SB's comment about them "trying to get food" that night. (I think somebody posted the Silver Dollar stops selling food at 8:00 pm??) This is in the mountains in Idaho, it cools off pretty quickly at night at that elevation. I don't think it would have been hot in the car at that time of night.

Don't you think they would have noticed if he was dead when they came out of the bar? If so, why drive up to the campsite and then leave the next morning to go hide him? Doesn't make sense to me.

Yep, I'm with you and I'm not buying the dying in a hot car theory. We do have very cool summer nights (for the most part) here in Idaho.

In an effort to put the hot car theory to rest, here is an hour-by-hour record of the temperatures in Leadore on July 9, 2015: http://www.friendlyforecast.com/usa...ion=ID&id=84168&date=20150709000000&sort=hour. The highest temperature (79 F) that day was reached at 2:00 p.m. There was then a thunderstorm and by 3:00 p.m., the temp had dropped by 10 degrees. So, yeah, this theory is bunk, me thinks.

 

[ClaireNC]

I'm so glad you posted this explanation (and your very detailed earlier post). Your theory BY FAR is the best and most thought out one on this thread. I think the two store stops (Klein says Vernal made two purchases but I, like you, believe there were two store stops) were part of the ruse to create an alibi. And for some reason, Klein calls the second store purchase (at least that's what it sounds like he is referring to) the "bombshell." I'd like to know your thoughts on that.

The two trips to the store certainly seem like they were made for some reason other than that they needed to buy a few things. However, Are these two smart enough to even think about creating an alibi?

For reference, here is a link to Tr.'s detailed map/timeline post that is being discussed: http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...round-10-July-2015-24&p=12396762#post12396762

 

[Midge Montana]

Yep, I'm with you and I'm not buying the dying in a hot car theory. We do have very cool summer nights (for the most part) here in Idaho.

In an effort to put the hot car theory to rest, here is an hour-by-hour record of the temperatures in Leadore on July 9, 2015: http://www.friendlyforecast.com/usa...ion=ID&id=84168&date=20150709000000&sort=hour. The highest temperature (79 F) that day was reached at 2:00 p.m. There was then a thunderstorm and by 3:00 p.m., the temp had dropped by 10 degrees. So, yeah, this theory is bunk, me thinks.

Incidents can occur even on mild days -- the interior temperature of a car left outside on a 70-degree day can reach 104 degrees in 30 minutes, according to a 2005 study published in the journal Pediatrics.
Source: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/08/14/children-heat-deaths-cars_n_5674641.html

 

[pepelepolecat]

Yep, I'm with you and I'm not buying the dying in a hot car theory. We do have very cool summer nights (for the most part) here in Idaho.

In an effort to put the hot car theory to rest, here is an hour-by-hour record of the temperatures in Leadore on July 9, 2015: http://www.friendlyforecast.com/usa...ion=ID&id=84168&date=20150709000000&sort=hour. The highest temperature (79 F) that day was reached at 2:00 p.m. There was then a thunderstorm and by 3:00 p.m., the temp had dropped by 10 degrees. So, yeah, this theory is bunk, me thinks.

I can't help but wonder if that thunderstorm had something to do with the timing of the 911 calls.

 

[Ekkwhine]

I can't go along with that theory. I don't think anybody could/would spend the night in a truck with a dead child.

RSBM

I've read a few cases where exactly that happened, one, I sadly don't remember the child's name, but the mother and boyfriend spent the night in a motel room with the child's body on the floor, and of course Joseph Walsh and Kristen bury leaving little Chance in his cot for days then wrapped in plastic bags in the closet until the smell got too much. Surely if you're of the character that you could (IMO) cause the death of a child, let alone your own child, either directly or indirectly then conceal it then your behaviour is going to be outside the parameters of what's considered normal?


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[pepelepolecat]

Incidents can occur even on mild days -- the interior temperature of a car left outside on a 70-degree day can reach 104 degrees in 30 minutes, according to a 2005 study published in the journal Pediatrics.
Source: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/08/14/children-heat-deaths-cars_n_5674641.html

It has more to do with the sun than with the actual temperature -- if it's a gloomy day and in the 70s, the car is likely to stay cooler than if it is a brilliantly sunny day and in the 60s. Thanks for finding that link! I was looking for one many threads earlier but could only find ones pertaining to dogs! And they were still full of accurate information, but I felt they wouldn't be taken as seriously as those pertaining to humans.

 

[kammiemc]

I can't help but wonder if that thunderstorm had something to do with the timing of the 911 calls.

How so?


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[The Apparition]

The Apparition, I read your original comment about your son and what you both endured. It is good for you to tell us about your experience, gives some perspective to circumstances in this case. Perseverance on your part paid off. So happy that it all ended well for you and you son.

Thanks again cpeacock1 I will use this to answer CoverMeCagney as well.

I don't mind answering some questions. I do not want to anger other users/mods or make people think I'm trying to hijack this thread to be about me. The FBI offered to notify media so they could film my sons first steps back on American soil I declined because it didn't want a big show then or now. I will try to be brief and if I am offending people by being off topic, my apologies.

I will call the land far, far away Narnia for the purposes of this discussion. Briefly and to the point no my son hasn't seen/spoken to his birth mother since he came home. I was not my intention that things would work out that way, I figured they'd talk on the phone at least.

I had the pleasure of appearing before the Supreme Court of Narnia and they actually found in my favor for the immediate return of my son and recognized that the American Court system and DYFS had been intimately involved in the decision to grant me full physical and legal custody of a 2 year old. The problem is for 2 years the courts didn't really do much to get my son sent home. During this time or perhaps for the whole 4 years my son was trained to hide when people came to the house, not given proper medical care, not given schooling, he also was on the wrong end of physical abuse.

They say justice is blind in America, in Narnia it is blind, uses a walker, and takes kickbacks. I only got my son because the FBI assigned a new attache to the embassy in Narnia. As the FBI attache to Narnia it was his job to work on any missing abducted kids with orders for return to America, among other things of course. He went to school abroad and knew a high ranking Narnian police officer, he called that guy up and said give me a break give us back this kid right now. In 2 days my son was "located" and put into protective custody so I could fly out and get him.

The therapist I found who spoke Narnian was able to find out lots of unfortunate things from my son and advised that contact would be very bad for him. Fun fact I had him see her on day 2 in America and he dutifully told her in perfect Narnian "help me my father has kidnapped me and taken me from Narnia call the police" he had a couple of charming things programmed into him like that. My Narnian was pretty weak so I didn't understand lots of what he said but that explains why people of the flight home were so interested in us. After about 2 months of being home my son abandoned Narnian and refused to speak it with his therapist and he basically disavowed the country entirely. About 1-1.5 years into him being back the therapist and myself opened up the offer of contact with his birth mother as he was fully de-programmed and doing great. He said no I'm good and has shown no inclination to change his mind 5 years into his return.

My son is great now and he has a happy life. Sorry for being lengthy and off topic, thanks again for all of you expressing support and well wishes!

 

[ReadySet]

I have previously posted a lot of maps, videos etc. of all the trails and back roads in the area, because I'm so struck by all the back country, and how many places there would be to hide a little body. But I never had a fleshed out timeline and theory like Tr., so I really appreciate that.

There are dozens, hundreds, maybe thousands of places that would be within a few hours of the campground, or Leadore. However, I strongly believe that LE, search and rescue, locals, Forest Service and BLM folks, know the area so well; there is no place we can come up with that they haven't thought of.

Also, they do have access to highway cams as we've discussed before, and there may have been sightings that we don't know about.

Having said that, here is the ghost town of Gilmore; only a 23 minute drive from Leadore. I'm posting this as an example of how quickly you could find a "hiding place"; not because I think the baby is there.

http://www.ghosttowns.com/states/id/gilmore.html

 

[Hoosier952]

Ha, just seen a joke thing going round FB about how when you (people in general) are going through "nothing to declare" at customs, you panic about having "accidentally packed 3 kilos of cocaine and a dead goat". I guess lie detectors are the same, paranoia would set it when you know what's at stake.

A member of the FBI showed up at my work two weeks ago. I was the only one in the front office when he walked in and introduced himself. I immediately had flashbacks of all of the questionable decisions I've ever made, questioned the contents of my vehicle and my pockets, wondered if I was somehow involved in mob activity. The look on everyone's faces when I told them the FBI wants to talk to us was hysterical. Turns out, my work is a potential terrorist target and they just wanted to go through some information. Way scarier stuff than any potential money laundering I've been doing in my sleep.

 

[ClaireNC]

Incidents can occur even on mild days -- the interior temperature of a car left outside on a 70-degree day can reach 104 degrees in 30 minutes, according to a 2005 study published in the journal Pediatrics.
Source: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/08/14/children-heat-deaths-cars_n_5674641.html

It wasn't 70 degrees 6:00 pm or later on the evening of July 9th.

 

[Rayemonde]

I have previously posted a lot of maps, videos etc. of all the trails and back roads in the area, because I'm so struck by all the back country, and how many places there would be to hide a little body. But I never had a fleshed out timeline and theory like Tr., so I really appreciate that.

There are dozens, hundreds, maybe thousands of places that would be within a few hours of the campground, or Leadore. However, I strongly believe that LE, search and rescue, locals, Forest Service and BLM folks, know the area so well; there is no place we can come up with that they haven't thought of.

Also, they do have access to highway cams as we've discussed before, and there may have been sightings that we don't know about.

Having said that, here is the ghost town of Gilmore; only a 23 minute drive from Leadore. I'm posting this as an example of how quickly you could find a "hiding place"; not because I think the baby is there.

http://www.ghosttowns.com/states/id/gilmore.html

I've been doing some research into parents who killed their child and hid the body, and one thing I've noticed is that they usually hide it close to home - often only about half a mile away from the home where the child died, up to about 10 or 12 miles. I'm hoping that in this case DeOrr will have been hidden fairly close to the campsite.

I'm not sure why parents usually hide the body close to home especially when they know a massive search will soon be underway for the child. Maybe it's just a blind panic thing, and they want to bury the evidence as quickly as possible, so they choose the first place that looks promising. Plus in this case maybe they didn't want to be away from camp for too long, as that would ruin their story about just popping to the store if ggp and IR noticed they had been gone for hours.

 

[pepelepolecat]

How so?


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It seems an odd coincidence that the 911 calls were made almost exactly at the time the rain started.

There have just been so many strange coincidences in this case. Maybe that's another one.

 

[ClaireNC]

I can't help but wonder if that thunderstorm had something to do with the timing of the 911 calls.

The thunderstorm that ConcernedCitizen mentioned was on July 9th. The 911 calls were made on July 10th.