ID - DeOrr Kunz Jr, 2, Timber Creek Campground, 10 July 2015 - # 25

[Ekkwhine]

No, but even the child-free have seen Weekend At Bernie's. Or read the news, watch Law & Order, etc. I would hope that a normal person would think it was pretty weird that the kid never "wakes up" all morning . . . when he had been "fast asleep" all the way there in the car (possible scenario). Now, let's say that he had sustained a head injury, or some sort of other injury . . not immediately fatal, but that led to death . . . a "normal" person might not be able to ascertain dangerous signs of lethargy, etc. I mean, if he was sitting quietly, holding a car, or barely able to hold onto it, when typically he would have been running around making "vroom vroom" noises with his car, IR and GGP wouldn't have known that . . .

Maybe they explained it away with a growth spurt or something?

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[Jamaica Me Crazy]

Personally, I think if JM got a tat it would be "Bella Vita."

 

[CoverMeCagney]

Good point. Someone had mentioned that he had been playing with Hotwheels cars. I wonder if he had any with him (according to the most recent interview, he always had cars with him), in the pockets of the camo hoodie/jacket, let's say. If not, were they still at the campsite?

According to his parents he's a kid that always always has a toy car with him, and never goes anywhere without his blanket, sippy cup and whatever the third thing was. This is why I can't believe he simply wandered off without those things.

He was wearing boots that were way too big. If an animal had taken him one of these would almost certainly have slipped off and been found. Or his toy car would have been found. VDK himself confirmed there has literally been nothing discovered on that mountain.

Nobody at the campsite reported hearing a vehicle entering or leaving the area which rules out abduction. Not a chance anyone did that on foot.

So, assuming DeOrr WAS at the campground that weekend (and I'd really like definite confirmation of that from anybody who saw or heard him) he can only have been removed by one of the four adults present.

Luminol apparently picked up markers on the rear car bumper. DDK made out it could have been from a rabbit or deer. Testing would almost certainly have shown whether it was human or animal and it surely should have shown whether it belonged to DeOrr. I'm puzzled why more has not been made of this but wonder if it's the "we know how he died but not why he died" statement from Klein.

It does seem when you look at the basics that the parents tried to present both an alibi (the lady at the store saw him / someone played with him). They also presented the abduction theory (creep in a jeep). They allowed ambiguity in the reporting of the timeline.

My best guess at the moment based on all of the above (and subject to change!) is that GGP backed into DeOrr and he died or was injured. JM freaked out because it's her beloved grandad and she might have worried about prior social services involvement. VDK supported her. IR was "gone fishing" and may have been suspicious but chose to believe the presented theories.

I'd give my eye teeth to know what happened between the 911 calls and help arriving. Were they frantic? Were they running around all over screaming DeOrr's name? Were they went from searching in the creek/reservoir? Did the other couple camping hear anything? Because they almost certainly would have in that environment.

Bit ramble-y but that's where I'm at. Today.

 

[12madelyn]

I truly believe that their hope is GGP's health continues to deteriorate to the point where he can not defend himself at all. Whether that means because he passes away or because his mental capacity has deteriorated to the point that he cannot be considered a reliable witness

I was wondering if it has been confirmed that GGP is for sure in declining mental capacity. VDK said he left the baby with a trusted adult. I know he's on O2, but could he just have emphysema? I don't know what O2 has to do with declining mental health.

 

[12madelyn]

Luminol apparently picked up markers on the rear car bumper. DDK made out it could have been from a rabbit or deer. Testing would almost certainly have shown whether it was human or animal and it surely should have shown whether it belonged to DeOrr. I'm puzzled why more has not been made of this but wonder if it's the "we know how he died but not why he died" statement from Klein.

Oh, I am sure that blood has been analyzed to the nth degree.

 

[Karinna]

BBM. Not true. The polys indicated deception by the parents. The parents both failed multiple polygraphs. You might want to go back a couple of threads and read the long discussion about the polys, all the way to the point where the sheriff clarified that the parents failed the polys. Nine polys. Failed. Not inconclusive, but failed. Nine of 'em.

Bowerman says portions of polygraph tests administered to Kunz and Mitchell have come back inconclusive - including questions about knowing what happened to DeOrr, why the child disappeared and where the toddler is located.

 

[Rayemonde]

I was wondering if it has been confirmed that GGP is for sure in declining mental capacity. VDK said he left the baby with a trusted adult. I know he's on O2, but could he just have emphysema? I don't know what O2 has to do with declining mental health.

The sheriff said he has memory problems.

 

[12madelyn]

I'll tell you why. She is an immature person heavily burdened with projected responsibility from a very young age. She has poor impulse control and is experiencing the first time of freedom she has ever had. She went from child to mother & now is neither.

Thank God she had her tubes tied. Albeit a bit late.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

I just thought of something that made my heart race a little. What if JM and VDK did not outright kill him, or dispose of him after an accident, but actually PLACED him somewhere far away on the mountain and just left? Or maybe they left him, after a toilet training accident and went for a drive to "teach him a lesson" but when they came back he was gone?

Maybe crazy but so are some of the other theories.

Horrible thought - but the cleanest solution of "a whatever problem": campground clean, car clean, parents and other adults clean, no blood, no traces.
An evil fairy, no one would think of.

 

[sonjay]

Bowerman says portions of polygraph tests administered to Kunz and Mitchell have come back inconclusive - including questions about knowing what happened to DeOrr, why the child disappeared and where the toddler is located.

Bowerman said the couple has continually changed their stories, and they’ve failed polygraphs examinations.


“We know that the parents aren’t telling the truth, and they know that we know that they’re lying,” Bowerman said. “I know that they know where the little boy is and what happened to him.”
http://www.idahostatejournal.com/me...cle_b4d359f2-0b13-55d2-9aec-178b359a5683.html

You're working from old information that has since been clarified. That is why I suggested reading that entire discussion. Then you would know that the sheriff eventually clarified that the parents failed their polygraphs. They lied.

 

[Karinna]

Bowerman said the couple has continually changed their stories, and they’ve failed polygraphs examinations.


“We know that the parents aren’t telling the truth, and they know that we know that they’re lying,” Bowerman said. “I know that they know where the little boy is and what happened to him.”
http://www.idahostatejournal.com/me...cle_b4d359f2-0b13-55d2-9aec-178b359a5683.html

You're working from old information that has since been clarified. That is why I suggested reading that entire discussion. Then you would know that the sheriff eventually clarified that the parents failed their polygraphs. They lied.

The so called "old information" regarding polygraph tests wouldn't change though IMO. Once the tests are done and results deciphered then thats it, they can't change that. But whatever.
I thought the premise that LE are stating they lied was more to do with their forever changing stories?

 

[leep]

I was wondering if it has been confirmed that GGP is for sure in declining mental capacity. VDK said he left the baby with a trusted adult. I know he's on O2, but could he just have emphysema? I don't know what O2 has to do with declining mental health.

He needs Oxygen for COPD, It's in a law suit online where he sued his old employer.

 

[sonjay]

The so called "old information" regarding polygraph tests wouldn't change though IMO. Once the tests are done and results deciphered then thats it, they can't change that. But whatever.
I thought the premise that LE are stating they lied was more to do with their forever changing stories?

Wrong. The sheriff earlier was simply trying to be the nice guy that he is and used the words "less than truthful" when he really meant "lying."

It was obvious back in January to anyone who was paying attention that the sheriff meant "lying" when he used the words "less than truthful."

"Everybody needs to make that decision on their own,” Bowerman said about donating money. “But they need to know that mom and dad are being less than truthful, and they can make a decision on whether to donate based on that."


Bowerman said on Monday that the statements made by DeOrr’s parents to the authorities have repeatedly changed over the course of the investigation.

“We’ve interviewed them multiple times, and every time there are changes to parts of their story,” Bowerman said. “The little things all change every time we speak with them.”

Bowerman said polygraph tests were administered to the four known people who were with DeOrr when he disappeared. These four people were the boy’s parents, his grandfather Robert Walton and family friend Isaac Reinwand.

Walton's and Reinwand’s polygraph tests came back inconclusive. But Bowerman said authorities were expecting that because Walton and Reinwand had undisclosed health problems known to affect polygraph results.

However, Bowerman said the polygraph tests indicated that the boy’s parents were not being upfront with some of the authorities’ questions.


"We re-interviewed them, but they weren’t willing to tell us the truth,” Bowerman said.

http://www.idahostatejournal.com/me...cle_156ed875-b71c-57e6-b472-eea0258a890e.html

Here is the important part to take note of:


Bowerman said the couple has continually changed their stories, and they’ve failed polygraphs examinations.


“We know that the parents aren’t telling the truth, and they know that we know that they’re lying,” Bowerman said. “I know that they know where the little boy is and what happened to him.”



http://www.idahostatejournal.com/me...cle_b4d359f2-0b13-55d2-9aec-178b359a5683.html

All the wishing in the world won't change that. The parents lied and they failed their polygraphs.

 

[Karinna]

Wrong. The sheriff earlier was simply trying to be the nice guy that he is and used the words "less than truthful" when he really meant "lying."

It was obvious back in January to anyone who was paying attention that the sheriff meant "lying" when he used the words "less than truthful."


http://www.idahostatejournal.com/me...cle_156ed875-b71c-57e6-b472-eea0258a890e.html

Here is the important part to take note of:


Bowerman said the couple has continually changed their stories, and they’ve failed polygraphs examinations.


“We know that the parents aren’t telling the truth, and they know that we know that they’re lying,” Bowerman said. “I know that they know where the little boy is and what happened to him.”



http://www.idahostatejournal.com/me...cle_b4d359f2-0b13-55d2-9aec-178b359a5683.html

All the wishing in the world won't change that. The parents lied and they failed their polygraphs.

Oh i know exactly what you're saying, and all i'm wishing for is that there is some resolution to find out what happened to Deorr and who was responsible for what.

 

[desert-blue]

According to his parents he's a kid that always always has a toy car with him, and never goes anywhere without his blanket, sippy cup and whatever the third thing was. This is why I can't believe he simply wandered off without those things.

He was wearing boots that were way too big. If an animal had taken him one of these would almost certainly have slipped off and been found. Or his toy car would have been found. VDK himself confirmed there has literally been nothing discovered on that mountain.

Nobody at the campsite reported hearing a vehicle entering or leaving the area which rules out abduction. Not a chance anyone did that on foot.

So, assuming DeOrr WAS at the campground that weekend (and I'd really like definite confirmation of that from anybody who saw or heard him) he can only have been removed by one of the four adults present.

Luminol apparently picked up markers on the rear car bumper. DDK made out it could have been from a rabbit or deer. Testing would almost certainly have shown whether it was human or animal and it surely should have shown whether it belonged to DeOrr. I'm puzzled why more has not been made of this but wonder if it's the "we know how he died but not why he died" statement from Klein.

It does seem when you look at the basics that the parents tried to present both an alibi (the lady at the store saw him / someone played with him). They also presented the abduction theory (creep in a jeep). They allowed ambiguity in the reporting of the timeline.

My best guess at the moment based on all of the above (and subject to change!) is that GGP backed into DeOrr and he died or was injured. JM freaked out because it's her beloved grandad and she might have worried about prior social services involvement. VDK supported her. IR was "gone fishing" and may have been suspicious but chose to believe the presented theories.

I'd give my eye teeth to know what happened between the 911 calls and help arriving. Were they frantic? Were they running around all over screaming DeOrr's name? Were they went from searching in the creek/reservoir? Did the other couple camping hear anything? Because they almost certainly would have in that environment.

Bit ramble-y but that's where I'm at. Today.

I agree with most of your scenario but I think VDK would have been driving the truck. The hits (luminol) were on VDK's truck, or am I confused? I don't think GGPA would be driving VDK's truck and I'm not sure JM would cover for GGPA. I think she'd cover for VDK, though. Just wanted to add my two cents. The truck theory is still high on my list too. (I think GGPA heard the commotion or has an idea about what happened (maybe saw some clean-up), thus the reason he has "direct knowledge.") MOO.

 

[Openminded]

I was wondering if it has been confirmed that GGP is for sure in declining mental capacity. VDK said he left the baby with a trusted adult. I know he's on O2, but could he just have emphysema? I don't know what O2 has to do with declining mental health.

I would think LE has verified GGP's physical and mental conditions if they do exist. The sheriff said they knew before the poly that his would be inconclusive so he was familiar with GGP's limitations.

I definitely wouldn't consider someone with supposed physical and mental issues to be a good candidate to watch a very active toddler outside. But IR was unknown to VDK before the trip so that leaves GGP as the "trusted adult".

As for oxygen, I've never heard it used for mental issues -- primarily for COPD and CHF -- so it's more logical it was for a physical condition but I guess it's possible oxygen could be a benefit for both.

 

[Susjay]

Ha Ha, I wish someone would come up with a better term than leakage. I cringe every time.

Yep, leakage! It's woo... And what sounds like it might be credible often isn't. It is as credible in the scholarly psychological realm as Freudian slips! So as credible as alien abduction and just as admissible in court!

 

[white rabbit]

i'll change the subject.

was this covered? at 2:21 in the video, DK says the following (it's not paraphrased, I listened to it over and over and over...and over):

"I mean...right from the git-go I...I got a missing child...signs don't mean nothin'. No trespassing, I don't care. If it's your land, I'll be respectful but...I don't care".

any thoughts on this statement? because...well...???

 

[Hippie Heart]

i'll change the subject.

was this covered? at 2:21 in the video, DK says the following (it's not paraphrased, I listened to it over and over and over...and over):

"I mean...right from the git-go I...I got a missing child...signs don't mean nothin'. No trespassing, I don't care. If it's your land, I'll be respectful but...I don't care".

any thoughts on this statement? because...well...???

I thought it was interesting/odd because I assumed that since the campground was extremely rural and on state/gov't land and possibly part of a larger national wilderness area, there wouldn't be any private property where they searched. I could be completely wrong though. What are your thoughts about what he said?

 

[jnblsm]

Exactly. What signs? There shouldn't be any "private property" signs where he'd be searching.

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