ID - DeOrr Kunz Jr, 2, Timber Creek Campground, 10 July 2015 - # 25

[MzOpinion8d]

The remains dumping person didn't go through he lower campground to get to the lake. The accessed another part of he lake, using a different trail.
Thi statement is in SB interview w/ Bessie/Tricia

One would think there would be a huge secured area if they're actively searching for a missing child. Securing the lower campground was probably the least important area to secure since they knew he wasn't there!

 

[Dee10]

If they believe it was stated by Kline the search will be in the lower campground, that's close and makes me think of someone panicking or without a lot of time. I do believe the search will be based on pings + perhaps something JM said. I'm not sure he was buried. Yes, there was a shovel we have been told about, however it may have been a flimsy collapsible on that is not very sturdy. It's very difficult to dig in the woods because of tree roots interlocking and in a barren area on the mountain I assume it could be rocky with very little soil. If Vernal was in a dead panic, he may have just left him off the road going out. This would also lend to Deorr wandering off, if he was found not too far out of a conceivable distance for a 'mover & a goer'. Just throwing out some thoughts.

 

[Hoosier952]

Thinking back to little Lonzie Barton case and monster Ruben Ebron having the "luxury" of dropping off his clothing at the Laundromat after his evil deed ...IF either or both DVK JM carried little DeOrr after his demise (Hate typing this), what did they do with their clothing? Bury, burn, put in dumpster?

I'd say they would all have plenty of extra clothes to change into, especially if they were planning on staying more than one night. Maybe that's why VK was wearing the hoodie while JM was wearing the tank top.

 

[Beezneez]

Knowing the incredible uninhabitated space of Idaho wilderness, the deceptiveness of the parents & the lack of publicly available evidence, I am losing steam. Something killed this little one. His parents know what & how. They don't care enough to give their babies soul closure. I pray LE has a bit of evidence that absoutely nails whoever is responsible & accomplices.

 

[Hoosier952]

I had a big long post all typed out earlier regarding thinking like a body hider/criminal, but it never posted and I couldn't get it back.

I'm not necessarily convinced if Deorr was hidden, he'd be close by a road. Here's my reasoning. It's not based on anything scientific, just random thoughts.

-We have no idea how many trips to the store were made on Friday. It sounds like two, but is this based on documented evidence or just one of the many stories? Maybe IR's recent statements? It's quite possible there was a trip to the store and "a trip to the store". That would have bought some time to go pretty much anywhere and I doubt GGP or IR would be paying enough attention to notice if they were gone longer than expected.

-I don't necessarily think VK would have stayed on roads at all. Maybe logging or mining roads or roads meant for off-roading. I'm sure they are scattered all over there. In a big truck, you can trudge through a pretty deep creek. As long as you drive a steady speed and watch the wave and keep the water under the intake, you'll be golden. You might get some wet floorboards out of the deal. Anyone who has done any off-roading or mudding would know how to do it. I wouldn't, of course :innocent: Everything's a road if you're brave and/or stupid enough or trying to hide a body where no one will find it. I only have experience in the youthful stupidity, just to be clear.

-I don't think VK would be too worried about getting lost. Being a trucker, I'd imagine he has a pretty decent sense of direction.

I'm going to look at maps for a while.

 

[Dee10]

I can't remember what case I read this on or how to access it, but there are statistics that LE go by how far off a road/trail that a body will be normally be found. Anyone know this? I wished I saved it as it was so interesting.

 

[persimmon]

I think burying is too risky and takes too long. Somebody could have easily spotted a truck parked off road etc. What about points on the road like vista points where there is perhaps a long drop to wilderness? If I was thinking of concealing something, I'd be likely to go this route. Especially in an area with such vast wilderness and relatively few people.

 

[The Apparition]

Thanks Aunt_Tulip. I just don't understand (still) why they are bringing E-Search and cadaver dogs in after the thaw. If it's been frozen up there, how was Klein able to determine a new place to search? It can't be based on something JM said, right? Still confused.

To ask the 'right' question is far more important than to receive the answer. The solution of a problem lies in the understanding of the problem; the answer is not outside the problem, it is in the problem.

 

[Hoosier952]

I haven't got the foggiest idea how big this will be, but it shows a 3, 5, and 10 mile radius around both the campground and Leadore. I did some basic polygon editing in Google Earth to make it easier to see as a screen shot. I found a website with a simple Google search that makes it pretty easy to draw multiple radii around anywhere and allows you to save the KML file to use in Google Earth.

 

[Hatfield]

BBM. The same thoughts have crossed my mind as well. I have wondered if just one of the parents had disappeared DeOrr, with the other not suspecting or knowing until some time later.

In this theory, one possibility is that things happened pretty much just as was told to SB in the beginning. The parents, along with DeOrr, went to the Stage Stop, then returned to the campground. DK asks IR to take him and JM to the creek to show them where he & GGP had been fishing. DeOrr is left at the campsite to hang out with GGP. The other three head down to the creek; JM begins fishing, IR moves down the creek aways. At some point, VDK tells JM he is going to get DeOrr to bring him to the creek; he goes alone. I recall on sm when JM was describing what happened in her own words, I remember thinking, yes I see your point that IR was out of sight for a significant amount of time, but based on your own words, so was VDK!

When VDK stated in the interview that when he arrived back to the campground to get DeOrr but he was nowhere to be found, that GGP said "I thought he came up to you!", I believe that very well could have happened. As in, GGP literally witnessed DeOrr going up to VDK. Perhaps VDK didn't think GGP saw.

And for whatever reason, whether it was an accident or intentional, DeOrr was killed or badly injured while with VDK. I imagine that things happened very quickly...VDK probably hid DeOrr in his truck, then initiated the whole "Deorr is missing!" charade. There were at least 3 working phones at the campsite...VDK's, JM's, and GGP's. Once JM/GGP decided to call 911, VDK knew he needed to dispose of the body. He hurries to his truck and hauls down the road with the excuse that he wants to be sure that he will have service on his phone, even though it would have taken seconds for him to see that JM/GGP phone got through. There really was no reason for him to haul off in his truck. He probably called 911 while in his truck not only to establish a reason for hauling away from the campsite, but also to get an idea of how much time he had before S&R would arrive. DeOrr is probably somewhere close to the campsite. And VDK has just been VERY VERY lucky that he has not been found as of yet. In the interview, VDK made it a point to convince us that DeOrr was "100%" not up on that mountain. I think that is why they started to push the abduction theory as opposed to "he wandered off and we just haven't found him yet", because they wanted people to focus away from the mountain.

I think that this theory, or something close, could explain JM's behavior as well. I think that she suspected at first, but certainly knows the truth by now. But she has chosen to stand by her man. When I see JM in interviews, I see a mix of annoyance and humiliation, with a little tinge of guilt. But not guilt because of what happened to DeOrr. Rather, guilt that instead of sadness and anger over his disappearance, she feels relief. And she's sick and tired of having to go through this charade, she's over it. Terrible, I know. But there it is.

So this is just one theory that has crossed my mind.

imo

This is a really good well thought out theory and one I had not heard described like this before. Thanks for sharing the theory.

What you describe really does fit in with a lot of what we heard in the interview and saw the reactions of JM.

Very interesting. I could see this happening.

 

[persimmon]

To further complicate things, I continue to be reminded that a few threads back it was brought up that an officer would be assigned to VDK and JM day and night from start to finish of this case. That would greatly limit their ability to discuss too much. I had never personally heard of such a thing but it appears it is standard in these cases.

 

[Susjay]

About the stop at the Silver Dollar. I wonder if the stop was made as they drove through Leadore on their way to the campground, or if they had already gone to the campground and then drove back into town? The way I see it is that if it was on their way to the campground, they would have had two vehicles and GGPA's camper all parked outside the SD. I wonder if maybe they left DeOrr in the camper (less visible to folks) while they were in the SD? Maybe he was asleep and then woke up and got into something?

On the other hand, if they had already gone to the campground, it seems like they would probably all go back into town in one vehicle, for example, maybe in GGPA's Suburban. If that's the case, it would be hard for IR or GGPA to not notice whether DeOrr was with them or not, and you'd think they would have vivid memories of the trip (a bumpy road with a toddler). However, maybe they didn't all go to the SD, perhaps one or two of them stayed at the campground.

No point, I guess, other than I wish we knew who all went to the SD and how long they stayed, etc.

For people who went camping, JM and VDK seemed to spend a lot of time away from the actual campsite!

 

[Hatfield]

I haven't got the foggiest idea how big this will be, but it shows a 3, 5, and 10 mile radius around both the campground and Leadore. I did some basic polygon editing in Google Earth to make it easier to see as a screen shot. I found a website with a simple Google search that makes it pretty easy to draw multiple radii around anywhere and allows you to save the KML file to use in Google Earth.

Excellent posts the past few days by everyone and this is one of them.

If we go by statistics alone this map is really good. I remember another case where LE used statistics to try to find a rapists house from the known locations of rape victims attacks and they used a method like this using concentric circles.

Where the concentric circles overlapped each other were the prime areas where LE suspected the rapist lived. And they were right once the rapist was arrested.

Using that same approach and using your map we can see the overlapping Red area. There is relatively small area where the red rings overlap.
That would be a prime search area. And if we shift it over maybe just a little bit toward the known roads leaving the campground it gives us another prime search area.

Gosh if we only all lived near there I bet we could get a nice little volunteer search party setup and I bet we would have just as much chance or better of finding him than LE would with all these great ideas.

Thanks again everyone for all the great posts lately.

 

[neesaki]

I think burying is too risky and takes too long. Somebody could have easily spotted a truck parked off road etc. What about points on the road like vista points where there is perhaps a long drop to wilderness? If I was thinking of concealing something, I'd be likely to go this route. Especially in an area with such vast wilderness and relatively few people.

I keep thinking the mountain is too rocky to bury a body, that they may have gone somewhere where the soil is less rocky to do so. I don't know where that might be, but just a thought. I'd be very surprised if it's very close to the campground, possibly a few miles away. If it's even in the Leadore area at all. "Anyway, I'm about caught up here, and haven't had a decent nights sleep in a while so took a sleeping aid, which means I have to stop and turn in. You know how those things work so fast, lol. Night all. fftobed:

 

[neesaki]

Excellent posts the past few days by everyone and this is one of them.

If we go by statistics alone this map is really good. I remember another case where LE used statistics to try to find a rapists house from the known locations of rape victims attacks and they used a method like this using concentric circles.

Where the concentric circles overlapped each other were the prime areas where LE suspected the rapist lived. And they were right once the rapist was arrested.

Using that same approach and using your map we can see the overlapping Red area. There is relatively small area where the red rings overlap.
That would be a prime search area. And if we shift it over maybe just a little bit toward the known roads leaving the campground it gives us another prime search area.

Gosh if we only all lived near there I bet we could get a nice little volunteer search party setup and I bet we would have just as much chance or better of finding him than LE would with all these great ideas.

Thanks again everyone for all the great posts lately.

I wish I did, I would search, now that would be da bomb, wouldn't it Hatfield.

 

[Hatfield]

To further complicate things, I continue to be reminded that a few threads back it was brought up that an officer would be assigned to VDK and JM day and night from start to finish of this case. That would greatly limit their ability to discuss too much. I had never personally heard of such a thing but it appears it is standard in these cases.

I remember some of the discussion but I am not convinced that actually happened in this case. There was one video link I saw where the family members were doing their own searching some number of days/weeks after the boy was missing and it looked like VDK and JM and their family members were searching with their own group. It didn't look like LE was part of it at all unless I mistook that interview. Sorry I don't have the link handy.

 

[persimmon]

Excellent posts the past few days by everyone and this is one of them.

If we go by statistics alone this map is really good. I remember another case where LE used statistics to try to find a rapists house from the known locations of rape victims attacks and they used a method like this using concentric circles.

Where the concentric circles overlapped each other were the prime areas where LE suspected the rapist lived. And they were right once the rapist was arrested.

Using that same approach and using your map we can see the overlapping Red area. There is relatively small area where the red rings overlap.
That would be a prime search area. And if we shift it over maybe just a little bit toward the known roads leaving the campground it gives us another prime search area.

Gosh if we only all lived near there I bet we could get a nice little volunteer search party setup and I bet we would have just as much chance or better of finding him than LE would with all these great ideas.

Thanks again everyone for all the great posts lately.

Excellent posts the past few days by everyone and this is one of them.

If we go by statistics alone this map is really good. I remember another case where LE used statistics to try to find a rapists house from the known locations of rape victims attacks and they used a method like this using concentric circles.

Where the concentric circles overlapped each other were the prime areas where LE suspected the rapist lived. And they were right once the rapist was arrested.

Using that same approach and using your map we can see the overlapping Red area. There is relatively small area where the red rings overlap.
That would be a prime search area. And if we shift it over maybe just a little bit toward the known roads leaving the campground it gives us another prime search area.

Gosh if we only all lived near there I bet we could get a nice little volunteer search party setup and I bet we would have just as much chance or better of finding him than LE would with all these great ideas.

Thanks again everyone for all the great posts lately.

It seems likely that the best place to conceal would be to the west of the campground. Highway 28 offers options on what looks like a lonely road. I mapped from the campground to a few nearby peaks and it's a slow drive but definitely provides less traveled terrain and much more flora for obscuring evidence.

 

[persimmon]

I remember some of the discussion but I am not convinced that actually happened in this case. There was one video link I saw where the family members were doing their own searching some number of days/weeks after the boy was missing and it looked like VDK and JM and their family members were searching with their own group. It didn't look like LE was part of it at all unless I mistook that interview. Sorry I don't have the link handy.

I found it odd and by no means can supply a definitive answer but information was supplied as a general rule of thumb. Short answer...idk. However, in doing a little research it appears that the liaison does not have to be an officer so they could blend in.

 

[Beezneez]

I would think that search & rescue from the area are aware & considering off-routes that are still travelable. If I were to be sent out on a search through a rural area I was familair with I know exactly the "hidden" places I would look first. Personally I don't think they were scoping out hiding places prior to whatever happened.
Right now I am considering every trail I have ever walked or driven (I jeep, as a verb). A pile of something? Ants, animals, a weird breeze. Now if I were actively looking for a little kid I'd give each pile a nudge with my boot but for every 10 ft there are that many mounds. Human nature is going to miss something. JM/DK do not have the wit to plot out a far away & complicated area to hide evidence. JMO.

 

[persimmon]

I would think that search & rescue from the area are aware & considering off-routes that are still travelable. If I were to be sent out on a search through a rural area I was familair with I know exactly the "hidden" places I would look first. Personally I don't think they were scoping out hiding places prior to whatever happened.
Right now I am considering every trail I have ever walked or driven (I jeep, as a verb). A pile of something? Ants, animals, a weird breeze. Now if I were actively looking for a little kid I'd give each pile a nudge with my boot but for every 10 ft there are that many mounds. Human nature is going to miss something. JM/DK do not have the wit to plot out a far away & complicated area to hide evidence. JMO.

I'm wondering if those roads have areas that would allow a drop of evidence that could only be discovered by somebody rapelling down a mountain? That type of hiding evidence would not take too much wit. However, it would have taken some time.