ID - DeOrr Kunz, Jr., 2, Timber Creek Campground, 10 July 2015 - #26

[Gibbs]

It is so surprising the basic timeline from the very beginning is still so sketchy over 8 months later.

Parents claimed time of arrival to camp after store trip= ~1:00 pm/1:10 pm
Claimed/known times of 911 calls= 2:22 pm/2:26 pm/2:28 pm
The approx time of LE and/or SAR turning up is ~4:00pm but that hasn't been very clearly stated AFAIK?

To add to the confusion there is also the issue of whether TBC was there already when LE/SAR turned up. The claimed time she arrived was 4:48 pm.

Just thought of this. Were there for certain only 3 calls to 911? If my son was missing and I called for help and HOURS passed before anyone arrived, I would be beyond angry...and would have made MANY additional phone calls (while searching for my son) with increasingly angry verbiage and intensity until someone showed up.

 

[TheTruthWillOut]

Just thought of this. We're there for certain only 3 calls to 911? If my son was missing and I called for help and HOURS passed before anyone arrived, I would be beyond angry...and would have made MANY additional phone calls (while searching for my son) with increasingly angry verbiage and intensity until someone showed up.

I believe the procedure was the callers stay where they were (for cell signal) and 911 would call them back for more information/give them updates. I asked about this a while ago given the large time gap as you say. If you listen to JM's 911 call you will hear what the dispatcher says.

 

[kammiemc]

I believe the procedure was the callers stay where they were (for cell signal) and 911 would call them back for more information/give them updates. I asked about this a while ago given the large time gap as you say. If you listen to JM's 911 call you will hear what the dispatcher says.

I totally heard what the dispatcher said, but if I couldn't find my son and 20 mins went by, 30, then an hour, then two hours, I would be calling nonstop. However, we obviously don't have any clue about how many update calls the parents were receiving from LE/SAR.


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[Beezneez]

It is so surprising the basic timeline from the very beginning is still so sketchy over 8 months later.

Parents claimed time of arrival to camp after store trip= ~1:00 pm/1:10 pm
Claimed/known times of 911 calls= 2:22 pm/2:26 pm/2:28 pm
The approx time of LE and/or SAR turning up is ~4:00pm but that hasn't been very clearly stated AFAIK?

To add to the confusion there is also the issue of whether TBC was there already when LE/SAR turned up. The claimed time she arrived was 4:48 pm.

I know it's been talked about, but I never did know the source of the suspicion that TBC was there earlier? Did one of them slip up& say something or was it reported by someone? Thanks!

 

[Hoosier952]

JM's attorney stated that she was fired as a result of Klein's statements and if this is true, the loss of her job would be considered 'actual damages' caused by Klein's untruthful public statement and she would be entitled to compensation for those losses. Idaho may also have punitive damages awards available for such an egregious act.

Who said there was blood on the truck bumper? This is not from LE is it? Then why is it being tossed around in discussions as if this were a fact?

If I were JM, I would sue Klein and get all of his records, his reports, his video/audio recordings, his expense reports and have my attorneys subject him and his staff to some brutal questioning under oath at deposition. No one is allowed to state as fact and with self-appointed authority something that is not true with a goal to destroy another. Klein can not hide behind ' this is an ongoing investigation' in order to prevent opposing counsel from obtaining all of his records.

If I were JM's attorney, I would go after Klein personally and KIC with a vengeance the likes of which he has never seen. His tough guy, know-it-all-persona and inflated ego would be reduced to a whimper and a simper. His attorney fees would exceed his E&O insurance limits so far that KIC would have to declare bankruptcy and I would destroy him. He bears false witness and deserves no mercy. But, that is just me. You may have a different opinion and let him slide because he was 'just trying to bring DeOrr home'. I would have my high heeled boot on his neck and make him beg forgiveness from the ashes of his former life.

SABBM- I think JM's attorney will have a hard time proving JM lost her job because of Klein's statements. In the interview she basically says she skipped out on work to deal with the case. Wouldn't her employer just say her frequent absence was the reason she was let go? I can't imagine an employer admitting to or claiming the reason for firing an employee was due to an ongoing police investigation, even if the law was on their side.

Blood comment was from SM and should be treated as rumor.

Could all of this information be handed over? It seems like it could be, but since it's pertaining to a possible criminal investigation, are there any legal issues that could come into play? Are there any reasons why possible evidence would have to remain confidential? I would imagine if Klein dug up any evidence, LE wouldn't be thrilled about it being released in a civil case, but is there anything they can do to prevent that from happening?

Apparently, you and I have the some opinion of Klein.

 

[1&2&3]

I don't think VDK and JM would ever sue anyone while this case is active and all eyes are on them.

The last place they want to be is in a courtroom! How can they accuse Klein of lying when they have been lying for 9 months? They have too much to loose to walk into a courtroom. They each would be slaughtered in the box testifying. They can't keep their stories straight and it would be worse when the pressure was put on them and the attorney was cross-examining them.

My opinions only.

ETA: I thought JM worked by keeping her grandfather and her mother paid her. This way she had little Deorr home with her and did not have to pay for daycare, but she still had money coming in.

 

[neesaki]

While I do not have Klein's exact words, when it is all boiled down, he said the parents are lying, know what happened to their child and that specifically JM admitted that she knows where the child's body is located but refuses to tell LE. Most of this is just Klein's opinion, he does not know with 100% certainty that what he said is true and he isn't privy to the LE interview during which JM allegedly made such a statement.

For the family to prevail in a lawsuit, they would have to show that the statements made are false and that the speaker, Klein, knew they were false when he made them. IMHO the statement that he made about the JM admission to LE is the one that can not be based on opinion and he, Klein, knew it to be false when he made it since he was not present during said interview and is not privy to anything LE has gathered during the investigation. He is loose with his lips. JM's attorney stated that she was fired as a result of Klein's statements and if this is true, the loss of her job would be considered 'actual damages' caused by Klein's untruthful public statement and she would be entitled to compensation for those losses. Idaho may also have punitive damages awards available for such an egregious act.

When one party prevails in civil litigation over another, the court may order the loser to pay fees and costs, however, these are usually just filing fees and the costs associated with the litigation such as court reporters, costs of transcripts, copies, postage, etc. but not the legal fees charged by attorneys. I have never seen nor heard of an award of attorney fees and I am sure some judge, somewhere, awarded it.

Who said there was blood on the truck bumper? This is not from LE is it? Then why is it being tossed around in discussions as if this were a fact?

If I were JM, I would sue Klein and get all of his records, his reports, his video/audio recordings, his expense reports and have my attorneys subject him and his staff to some brutal questioning under oath at deposition. No one is allowed to state as fact and with self-appointed authority something that is not true with a goal to destroy another. Klein can not hide behind ' this is an ongoing investigation' in order to prevent opposing counsel from obtaining all of his records.

If I were JM's attorney, I would go after Klein personally and KIC with a vengeance the likes of which he has never seen. His tough guy, know-it-all-persona and inflated ego would be reduced to a whimper and a simper. His attorney fees would exceed his E&O insurance limits so far that KIC would have to declare bankruptcy and I would destroy him. He bears false witness and deserves no mercy. But, that is just me. You may have a different opinion and let him slide because he was 'just trying to bring DeOrr home'. I would have my high heeled boot on his neck and make him beg forgiveness from the ashes of his former life.

IIRC, grandpa Kunz was one of several who hired Klein, meaning he signed the contract, at least this is my understanding. If so, then does he not have access to all the records, including all of Klein's reports and information?

I just don't see what Klein would have to hide from the Kunz family, it should have been full disclosure. He's not an idiot, at least I don't think so, he's been in this business long enough to know the rules by which he must play. Unfortunately, the Kunz family didn't like the results. But please correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[erinp]

It has been claimed that they arrived at the campsite around dark, around 9:30pm Thursday.

it was also claimed that a witness saw them at 6pm the night before DeOrr disappeared

It takes around 2 hours to get from Idaho Falls to Leadore. And around 30-45 mins to get from Leadore to the campsite.

If the sighting of them at 6pm was in Leadore then they must have spent nearly 3 hours there in order to leave at a time that got them to Timber Creek at 9:30pm. If they spent nearly 3 hours in Leadore, you would think there would be quite a few people that could say they were there or not and whether they saw DeOrr.

Perhaps the 6pm sighting of them was back in Idaho Falls before they left? Then say they leave Idaho Falls around 6:30, they drive for a couple of hours and get to Leadore around 8:30, see the diner is closed and keep driving to the campsite getting there around 9:30

I only mention it because so many people seem to be saying the 6pm sighting the night before was in Leadore but it doesn't seem to fit with a 9:30pm arrival at the campsite.

 

[Gibbs]

I believe the procedure was the callers stay where they were (for cell signal) and 911 would call them back for more information/give them updates. I asked about this a while ago given the large time gap as you say. If you listen to JM's 911 call you will hear what the dispatcher says.

That would be terrifying- "stay where you are". My son is missing. I'm out of here and I'm going to find him...and yet I would want to stay in cell range. I'd probably hand off the phone to GGPA/IR and look for my son. I couldn't imagine doing nothing...especially for hours. My heart started racing a bit just thinking about it.

 

[kammiemc]

It has been claimed that they arrived at the campsite around dark, around 9:30pm Thursday.

it was also claimed that a witness saw them at 6pm the night before DeOrr disappeared

It takes around 2 hours to get from Idaho Falls to Leadore. And around 30-45 mins to get from Leadore to the campsite.

If the sighting of them at 6pm was in Leadore then they must have spent nearly 3 hours there in order to leave at a time that got them to Timber Creek at 9:30pm. If they spent nearly 3 hours in Leadore, you would think there would be quite a few people that could say they were there or not and whether they saw DeOrr.

Perhaps the 6pm sighting of them was back in Idaho Falls before they left? Then say they leave Idaho Falls around 6:30, they drive for a couple of hours and get to Leadore around 8:30, see the diner is closed and keep driving to the campsite getting there around 9:30

I only mention it because so many people seem to be saying the 6pm sighting the night before was in Leadore but it doesn't seem to fit with a 9:30pm arrival at the campsite.

I tend to think it was an IF (or somewhere in transit) sighting. Had they been in Leadore at 6 PM, they shouldn't have had a problem getting food at the Silver Dollar Bar/Restaurant.


ETA: One thing to consider though, is that this 6 PM sighting was the last sighting of DeOrr from an outside party. Anyone in their group could have been sighted after. (Meaning, little DeOrr could have slept in the truck or camper with or without someone watching him.) So, still can't for sure assume it was in IF. But looks that way!

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[Rayemonde]

Just read about a case that reminded me of one of the theories about what happened to DeOrr (he wandered off and drowned, and they covered it up).

Reena Williams, 3, wandered away from home in Wisconsin. Her father asked a neighbour if they had seen her, and the neighbour told him to call the police but the father said "We don't need no police". After the father left, the neighbour called the police anyway.

After a massive search, Reena's body was found in a canal 25 yards from her home. Police had to go and find her mother to break the news - rather than helping to look for her daughter, she had gone shoe shopping. The death was ruled accidental drowning. It turned out that there was a long history of neglect, and the little girl was often found wandering. The parents were high when their daughter wandered off and died.
This is the kind of situation where I can imagine parents covering up an accidental death of their child.

They were convicted of child neglect, and the mother got one year of probation. The father got 5 months in jail and 3 years of probation.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?181819-WI-Reena-Williams-3-Town-of-Swiss-14-Aug-2012

 

[kammiemc]

IIRC, grandpa Kunz was one of several who hired Klein, meaning he signed the contract, at least this is my understanding. If so, then does he not have access to all the records, including all of Klein's reports and information?

I just don't see what Klein would have to hide from the Kunz family, it should have been full disclosure. He's not an idiot, at least I don't think so, he's been in this business long enough to know the rules by which he must play. Unfortunately, the Kunz family didn't like the results. But please correct me if I'm wrong.

It was only Dennis Kunz (VDK's dad) who was his client, per Klein.

ETA: it is possible that anyone who gave interviews signed something, but there was only one client. Now we don't know who the new client is!


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[desert-blue]

I tend to think it was an IF (or somewhere in transit) sighting. Had they been in Leadore at 6 PM, they shouldn't have had a problem getting food at the Silver Dollar Bar/Restaurant.


ETA: One thing to consider though, is that this 6 PM sighting was the last sighting of DeOrr from an outside party. Anyone in their group could have been sighted after. (Meaning, little DeOrr could have slept in the truck or camper with or without someone watching him.) So, still can't for sure assume it was in IF. But looks that way!

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I agree - I'm thinking the sighting was in or near Idaho Falls.

 

[desert-blue]

I know it's been talked about, but I never did know the source of the suspicion that TBC was there earlier? Did one of them slip up& say something or was it reported by someone? Thanks!

I don't recall if she said it anywhere else but TBC (or someone using her account) did comment on FB early on that she arrived at 4:48 PM. I can't find a MSM link right now, so it may still be in the rumor category.

 

[erinp]

I don't recall if she said it anywhere else but TBC (or someone using her account) did comment on FB early on that she arrived at 4:48 PM. I can't find a MSM link right now, so it may still be in the rumor category.

i find that really odd that she knows down to the precise minute what time she got there.

 

[ModernAudrey]

i find that really odd that she knows down to the precise minute what time she got there.

Maybe she sent a text or called someone when she arrived, so she was able to tell the exact time from her phone log. Just a thought... seems like something I would do.

 

[desert-blue]

True. But then SB cleared it up that it was actually about 3 hours from the time DeOrr went missing till anyone showed up.

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My feeling on all this is that the cover-up was for the most part completed before 911 was called. I can't imagine that they would have risked having someone showing up quickly - for all they knew, a park ranger could have been in the vicinity. I think GGPA was the catalyst for the 911 calls and that perhaps VDK and JM weren't quite ready yet and that's why VDK panicked and had to haul out of the campground (to dispose of some last minute evidence). I assume they left at least one of their cell phones turned on after the 911 calls were made (in case 911 called them back) and that they would not have strayed too far from the campground (for fear of their cell phone pings being tracked and for fear of not being there when help arrived, not to mention IR and GGPA would have noticed all that going on). MOO.

 

[desert-blue]

Maybe she sent a text or called someone when she arrived, so she was able to tell the exact time from her phone log. Just a thought... seems like something I would do.

It could be that she looked at the clock when she got there and/or made a call or text, like you said. Under the circumstances and trying to get there as quickly as possible, she may have been doing more clock watching than normal. Who knows - kind of strange that she reported it that way, though. I think I would have just said around a quarter to 5 or around 4:45 (even if I knew it was precisely at 4:48). Regardless, I'm still not sure where this puts her arrival time in terms of LE and SAR.

 

[MBK]

It could be that she looked at the clock when she got there and/or made a call or text, like you said. Under the circumstances and trying to get there as quickly as possible, she may have been doing more clock watching than normal. Who knows - kind of strange that she reported it that way, though. I think I would have just said around a quarter to 5 or around 4:45 (even if I knew it was precisely at 4:48). Regardless, I'm still not sure where this puts her arrival time in terms of LE and SAR.

She was probably also careful to note the time . . because . . . she kind of "knew" she'd be asked about it.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

After watching the most recent interview with the parents, it wouldn't actually surprise me if it turns out that Jessica killed DeOrr on purpose. Maybe even planned it in advance. IMO she is not sad at all that he is gone. She couldn't even manage to look grief-stricken for a short TV interview. Maybe having a toddler was cramping her lifestyle, and she dreamed of being childfree. And now she's living the dream. She doesn't even seem upset, angry or scared about being named a suspect.

Maybe, JM even was jealous of her child because VDK was a great father to him, his "mini me"? After little Deorr's "disappearing" VDK now has to show who is more important to him: his child or his partner JM. Maybe, he feels forced to cover up for JM because of her previous jealous accusations.

Sometimes it is a pet dog the object of jealousy, maybe sometimes it is the own child.