ID - DeOrr Kunz, Jr., 2, Timber Creek Campground, 10 July 2015 - #28

[misty48]

Just wondering, are you new to this case? I suggest for now you disregard to Klein stuff and go to the media thread and read everything we know from LE and the FBI. Then maybe you will see it was LE, not Klein, who made the findings that led to J and V being named suspects. And it was LE who said they believe this is an intentional homicide.

According to J and V it was 10-20 minutes TOPS that GGP was left with Deorr, allegedly. But apparently, according to LE, they don't believe this to be the case. And from the PARENTS- IR was never alone with Deorr. In fact IR is who they used as their alibi because they supposedly went to the creek with him when Deorr "vanished".

GGP has given us nothing. Pretty much he didn't know he was watching Deorr. Said he thought he went with his parents. Didn't see him until Jessica supposedly came back and asked where he went. GGP never noticed him missing (I assume because he wasn't really left with him). At one point GGP said he thought he saw him follow J and V. But he has never said he was asked to watch him and spent even 1 minute alone with him.

Please please go read the FACTS of this case from LE and MSM and get well versed in that first. Then by all means go read Klein's stuff, as it also.holds a lot of merit. But I think it's important you don't believe that all this evidence came from Klein and that he has influenced LE. It's the other way around.

And if Klein had crossed any lines LE would have muzzled him WEEKS ago. He was served with a lawsuit by V and J and still continued to release info because he is within the law and doing nothing wrong, Legally speaking.

I'm new to this site but have followed the case with interest from afar.
Perhaps you could tell me whether LE named J&V suspects, rather than POI's, before or after Klein's involvement.
Do you not have libel laws in the USA?

 

[KatieLiz]

I'm new to this site but have followed the case with interest from afar.
Perhaps you could tell me whether LE named J&V suspects, rather than POI's, before or after Klein's involvement.
Do you not have libel laws in the USA?

I believe they were POIS and then suspects. Yes it was after Klein's involvement but not because of him. It was because of the FBI polygraphs, the Idaho polygraphs, the changing stories, and evidence gathered by LE. I have never heard of LE going off what a PI says and not their own evidence.

And yes there are libel laws. And J and V are trying to sue. But Klein is releasing THEIR OWN WORDS. They don't have a leg to stand on in that lawsuit IMO. Again, if Klein was wrong he would have stopped when the lawsuit came out. And if he was impeding the investigation LE would have stopped him. He is working with Bowerman and Penner.

 

[misty48]

I believe they were POIS and then suspects. Yes it was after Klein's involvement but not because of him. It was because of the FBI polygraphs, the Idaho polygraphs, the changing stories, and evidence gathered by LE. I have never heard of LE going off what a PI says and not their own evidence.

And yes there are libel laws. And J and V are trying to sue. But Klein is releasing THEIR OWN WORDS. They don't have a leg to stand on in that lawsuit IMO. Again, if Klein was wrong he would have stopped when the lawsuit came out. And if he was impeding the investigation LE would have stopped him. He is working with Bowerman and Penner.

Is it not of concern that 2 people considered of sound mind can be made suspects for failing a polygraph but 2 other people with mental health issues who fail polygraphs are not made suspects?
Klein would not be sued for releasing JA & VK's own words, he is being sued because of his own words in media releases.

As far as Deorr not being in the area because no-one could find him, you must be aware that young children can be "missing" from home for several hours yet ultimately be located within the same property, concealed in a cupboard or suchlike. It is not impossible that all the volunteers & agencies missed what has been there all along.

 

[neesaki]

Is it not of concern that 2 people considered of sound mind can be made suspects for failing a polygraph but 2 other people with mental health issues who fail polygraphs are not made suspects?
Klein would not be sued for releasing JA & VK's own words, he is being sued because of his own words in media releases.

As far as Deorr not being in the area because no-one could find him, you must be aware that young children can be "missing" from home for several hours yet ultimately be located within the same property, concealed in a cupboard or suchlike. It is not impossible that all the volunteers & agencies missed what has been there all along.

Here is a link to the media thread page that has the links to the press releases in which LE named the parents suspects.
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...old-Media-and-Maps-**NO-DISCUSSION-quot/page3

I have to assume that LE has their reasons for not naming the other two POIs suspects . Maybe they will at some point, who knows. Regarding little Deorr still being in the area and just not found, well many of us here held on to that possibility for a long time, some still do. But according to LE the evidence points elsewhere, that information is also available over on the media thread. Hope this helps.

 

[CoverMeCagney]

I'm new to this site but have followed the case with interest from afar.
Perhaps you could tell me whether LE named J&V suspects, rather than POI's, before or after Klein's involvement.
Do you not have libel laws in the USA?

It's different in the US, Misty. They could/would have been arrested months ago in the UK because here we can arrest someone on "reasonable suspicion". In America they have to find "probable cause" which basically means they need some sort of hard evidence before the police can nick them. It's very frustrating as it means evidence could be lost / hidden / cleaned up in the intervening time, whereas we would have them in the police station with a search warrant being executed to catch them in the act.

I think they announce someone is a POI when their hands are tied legally, but once an arrest is made in the US it's serious stuff. Here, not so much.

This article explains the differences really well

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_..._is_being_arrested_different_in_britain_.html

 

[misty48]

It's different in the US, Misty. They could/would have been arrested months ago in the UK because here we can arrest someone on "reasonable suspicion". In America they have to find "probable cause" which basically means they need some sort of hard evidence before the police can nick them. It's very frustrating as it means evidence could be lost / hidden / cleaned up in the intervening time, whereas we would have them in the police station with a search warrant being executed to catch them in the act.

I think they announce someone is a POI when their hands are tied legally, but once an arrest is made in the US it's serious stuff. Here, not so much.

This article explains the differences really well

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_..._is_being_arrested_different_in_britain_.html

Thank you for that link, CoverMeCagney.

"Because it’s a lot easier to arrest someone in the United Kingdom, but being arrested there isn’t a big deal like it is in the United States. American police need probable cause to make an arrest, but in the United Kingdom, officers can arrest on suspicion.Probable cause is defined as the belief that a crime was probably committed, and that the suspect was probably responsible. Reasonable suspicion means that a right-minded individual would have grounds to suspect that a crime had been committed and that the suspect might be responsible. To have probable cause, greater evidence is required."

I presume that LE do not have sufficient forensic evidence to support their beliefs that the parents committed any crime.
"

 

[CoverMeCagney]

Thank you for that link, CoverMeCagney.

"Because it’s a lot easier to arrest someone in the United Kingdom, but being arrested there isn’t a big deal like it is in the United States. American police need probable cause to make an arrest, but in the United Kingdom, officers can arrest on suspicion.Probable cause is defined as the belief that a crime was probably committed, and that the suspect was probably responsible. Reasonable suspicion means that a right-minded individual would have grounds to suspect that a crime had been committed and that the suspect might be responsible. To have probable cause, greater evidence is required."

I presume that LE do not have sufficient forensic evidence to support their beliefs that the parents committed any crime.
"

Correctamundo!

The worst example of this (in the cases I follow here) is Kyrian Knox. Toddler found chopped up in a lake. The police know the couple who he was last with but are powerless to arrest them with no direct proof. Laughably, they are waiting for the couple to voluntarily speak to them. I mean, why would you come forward if there's a good chance of getting away with it? Aint happening!

On the flip side, and while I do prefer our powers of arrest for evidence gathering reasons, there have been shocking instances of innocent people splashed all over the press, most infamously Chris Jeffries in the Joanna Yeates case. And then there's Claudia Lawrence - 10/12 arrests so far (some for murder) but all free to go as there's insufficient tangible evidence.

In my time here I have found that a British arrest can mean very little, whereas over the pond it's huge news. The American members here seem way more patient than me and my "just nick 'em" attitude though lol!

 

[misty48]

Here is a link to the media thread page that has the links to the press releases in which LE named the parents suspects.
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...old-Media-and-Maps-**NO-DISCUSSION-quot/page3

I have to assume that LE has their reasons for not naming the other two POIs suspects . Maybe they will at some point, who knows. Regarding little Deorr still being in the area and just not found, well many of us here held on to that possibility for a long time, some still do. But according to LE the evidence points elsewhere, that information is also available over on the media thread. Hope this helps.

Thank you for the links. It does not appear to be a coincidence that the parents were officially announced as suspects following the release of the report from Klein. I can only wonder how Klein reached his conclusion without ever having interviewed IR.
.

 

[CoverMeCagney]

Thank you for the links. It does not appear to be a coincidence that the parents were officially announced as suspects following the release of the report from Klein. I can only wonder how Klein reached his conclusion without ever having interviewed IR.
.

Because Klein, like LE, caught them lying and changing their stories multiple times.

 

[neesaki]

It's different in the US, Misty. They could/would have been arrested months ago in the UK because here we can arrest someone on "reasonable suspicion". In America they have to find "probable cause" which basically means they need some sort of hard evidence before the police can nick them. It's very frustrating as it means evidence could be lost / hidden / cleaned up in the intervening time, whereas we would have them in the police station with a search warrant being executed to catch them in the act.

I think they announce someone is a POI when their hands are tied legally, but once an arrest is made in the US it's serious stuff. Here, not so much.

This article explains the differences really well

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_..._is_being_arrested_different_in_britain_.html

That "lost / hidden / cleaned up" part is something that really concerns me. Thanks for the link, I've never really known the difference.

 

[koios]

How many nights were the group planning to stay at the campsite, anyone know?

 

[CoverMeCagney]

That "lost / hidden / cleaned up" part is something that really concerns me. Thanks for the link, I've never really known the difference.

You're welcome! Another case where I wish arrests/warrants could be served on spec is Missy Bevers. Someone somewhere nearby had blood spattered police uniform stashed in their house/car, but it will be long gone by now. There must be many other instances. The UK way definitely has its faults but can at least apply pressure AND search for proof soon after the event. It seems strange to me that proof would have to be gained before any of that could happen, seems kinda the wrong way round.

 

[CoverMeCagney]

How many nights were the group planning to stay at the campsite, anyone know?

From memory the four plus DeOrr would be there for a couple of nights before Trina (and other family I think) were due to join them for the weekend.

 

[KatieLiz]

Is it not of concern that 2 people considered of sound mind can be made suspects for failing a polygraph but 2 other people with mental health issues who fail polygraphs are not made suspects?
Klein would not be sued for releasing JA & VK's own words, he is being sued because of his own words in media releases.

As far as Deorr not being in the area because no-one could find him, you must be aware that young children can be "missing" from home for several hours yet ultimately be located within the same property, concealed in a cupboard or suchlike. It is not impossible that all the volunteers & agencies missed what has been there all along.

With all due respect, you are not LE and do not know more than them. In the US double jeopardy laws are a big deal, which is why we don't have an arrest yet. LE has named them suspects based on a hell of a lot more than the polygraphs. That is just one small piece of this massive puzzle. They would not be using the words suspects and intentional homicide, as well as saying they don't think he's on the mountain and won't search anymore, unless they had some damn good evidence. These are professionals dealing with a missing 2 year old. If they thought there was a shred of hope they would be searching daily still.

The police are not the ones needing to defend themselves here, the suspects are.

And Klein is being sued because J and V are trying to intimidate him. The case has.no merit. People can file frivolous lawsuits daily if they want to. Just because you see someone is being sued doesn't mean they have grounds for their case. The US is the most litigious society in the world (I think...) and you can file frivolous suits if you so choose. Doesn't mean you will win.

Of course Deorr could be concealed somewhere and have been missed by searchers. But constant lies by the parents, failed polys and every other thing we know tells us otherwise. That's not even mentioning phones records, texts, and pings. The cops know SO MUCH that hasn't been released. It's 2016. Can't get far without leaving an electronic footprint.

And you asked about.libel laws in the US..... that should tell you exactly why the Sheriff and Klein wouldn't be talking without good evidence. -- could you imagine them finding Deorr snagged in the creek right now? If they were just calling out J and V without evidence and then find Deorr they would be sued back to the stone age. They are speaking out because they know a hell of a lot more than we do.

Since you seem to be challenging us so much and defending them I would LOVE for you to explain your stance. If this child vanished innocently please explain his parents behaviour, especially Jessicas. Please explain the thousands of lies, I mean STORIES, they have said. I want to hear a legitimate defence. They can't even explain their day to us or piece together when or how Deorr went missing or even who was with who. I would love to hear you piece it together to make sense for me because the way I see it now I can't even understand anyone believing them right now.

Abd just for the record: i am a "stick it to the man" type of person and I rarely believe LE flat out without a lot of scrutiny.

 

[KatieLiz]

Thank you for that link, CoverMeCagney.

"Because it’s a lot easier to arrest someone in the United Kingdom, but being arrested there isn’t a big deal like it is in the United States. American police need probable cause to make an arrest, but in the United Kingdom, officers can arrest on suspicion.Probable cause is defined as the belief that a crime was probably committed, and that the suspect was probably responsible. Reasonable suspicion means that a right-minded individual would have grounds to suspect that a crime had been committed and that the suspect might be responsible. To have probable cause, greater evidence is required."

I presume that LE do not have sufficient forensic evidence to support their beliefs that the parents committed any crime.
"

Read up on the Casey Anthony case and you will understand where LE is coming from in this case. They need Deorr's body to guarantee they won't get away with what Casey got away with.

 

[Onebest]

I'm new to this site but have followed the case with interest from afar.
Perhaps you could tell me whether LE named J&V suspects, rather than POI's, before or after Klein's involvement.
Do you not have libel laws in the USA?

FACT: it was the JMA and VKs family that hired not one but TWO private investigators to work on finding Baby Deoor. They fired the first PI because they didnt like his findings, they hired Klein and then fired him because they didnt like his release of information. Klein was rehired once AGAIN although by whom is supposed to be secret.

The family of baby Deoor hired Klein the first time and public donations paid for him so I guess you could say, yes, its the American way to support families of lost children, come alongside financially and physically while the PI that the FAMILY of the missing baby does his job.

LE in two counties and the FBI agree VK and JMA are worthy of being called suspects. LE and the FBI are NOT in business with Klein. JMO

 

[koios]

From memory the four plus DeOrr would be there for a couple of nights before Trina (and other family I think) were due to join them for the weekend.

Thanks CoverMeCagney. I'm trying to work out was the camper unhitched from the suburbn on arrival. I think it was left attached MOO. This is common, I found a discussion on a US camper forum where many people stated that if staying for a short time some people often leave camper attached to vehicle, also sometimes don't even lower the stabiliser feet. This would make V statement correct (still attached). I think there is probably no discrepancy in J statement ("set up the camper off the suburbn"), because "off" is possibly colloquial for "hitched to"? Source video "Once again...." at http://www.facebook.com/KleinInvestigations/videos

 

[Latestforever]

Read up on the Casey Anthony case and you will understand where LE is coming from in this case. They need Deorr's body to guarantee they won't get away with what Casey got away with.

What are you talking about? Caylee's body was found before trial. Casey should have life in prison for her death.

I think Deorr will be found in that wilderness, further than the searchers thought he could go. NO, I am In NO way connected to Deorr's family, JMO!

 

[Onebest]

What are you talking about? Caylee's body was found before trial. Casey should have life in prison for her death.

I think Deorr will be found in that wilderness, further than the searchers thought he could go. NO, I am In NO way connected to Deorr's family, JMO!

Then respectfully, how do you personally account for his parents lies about the time line of events?

 

[Latestforever]

Then respectfully, how do you personally account for his parents lies about the time line of events?

Respectfully, I will wait until Someone is arrested and I have read the affidavit that has the evidence explained. I have no idea what to make of any of it at this point, still after all this time. Yes, LE has said they are suspects/persons of interest, but I am not going to go at the family and call them guilty until LE has arrested them and the evidence is clear; I am just not there yet. JMO