ID - DeOrr Kunz, Jr., 2, Timber Creek Campground, 10 July 2015 - #28

[desert-blue]

He got soot on his arm so I guess he wasn't wearing his camo jacket at 8-10 a.m. but was wearing it later in the day when it warmed up. Craziness.

Also, the elevation at Timber Creek Campground is 7604' and the elevation of the town of Leadore is 5971'. The temperature in Leadore, down in the valley, therefore, would be warmer than up at the campsite. If his jacket was off at 10:00 am at the higher elevation, it seems unlikely there would have been a need for the jacket for the trip down to the store, especially when riding inside the truck. It's possible they put it on him when they returned from the store, but it would have been warmer at 1:00 than it was at 10:00. I personally feel like Vernal's story is a work of fiction, and a strange one at that. Calmly finding amusement at watching your toddler stick his entire arm up a tailpipe, getting his arm so dirty it looks to have disappeared, and then gently and magically wiping away the soot (all the while seeming to think this is cute?, despite the obvious danger of being burned if he continues to do this in the future) seems like something from Alice in Wonderland. It must be difficult to try to come up with all the things that DeOrr said and did that day. No wonder he stuck to the search and rescue efforts during that first interview.

 

[skinnycat]

Sweet lil DeOrr I am so sad for you, what kind of an idiot lets their child play near an exhaust pipe, not only do those pipes get hot but the noxious soot that would be on there.

What if Vernal was going to move the truck and someone was supposed to be watching DeOrr, but they weren't and DeOrr had put his arm up the exhaust pipe, and the driver couldn't see him, they start the truck put it in gear, either dragged or ran over DeOrr

but why cover it up,

 

[passionflower]

Sweet lil DeOrr I am so sad for you, what kind of an idiot lets their child play near an exhaust pipe, not only do those pipes get hot but the noxious soot that would be on there.

What if Vernal was going to move the truck and someone was supposed to be watching DeOrr, but they weren't and DeOrr had put his arm up the exhaust pipe, and the driver couldn't see him, they start the truck put it in gear, either dragged or ran over DeOrr

but why cover it up,

yep! might of happened just like that!

 

[Limecat]

Sweet lil DeOrr I am so sad for you, what kind of an idiot lets their child play near an exhaust pipe, not only do those pipes get hot but the noxious soot that would be on there.

What if Vernal was going to move the truck and someone was supposed to be watching DeOrr, but they weren't and DeOrr had put his arm up the exhaust pipe, and the driver couldn't see him, they start the truck put it in gear, either dragged or ran over DeOrr

but why cover it up,

I haven't posted much on this thread but I just have to say that IF an "alive" DeOrr was at the campsite, then I've always felt his disappearance was somehow connected to the truck.

In one of the IR interviews when asked about if anyone had been drinking (I'm totally going off barely reliable memory in no way quoting) he said something about GGP bringing whiskey. Then he hurriedly said well no GGP doesn't drink any more.

I just don't know what to think at all. I have always questioned whether that precious baby was ever alive at the campground but I guess I'd rather believe in a tragic accident - even with the ridiculous and outrageous cover up - than to believe intentional homicide.

IMO


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[awakeandaware]

I want to know when this trip was planned. Was it planned in advance. When did they pack (in advance,or last minute)? Did anyone get a fishing license and bring gear? Did anyone take time off of work. If so, when was it approved? Was there a pack and play or some sort of play pin at the site? Did they find used diapers and dirty baby clothes? Was Deorr at dinner with them the night before? Who drank and did drugs?

 

[awakeandaware]

yep! might of happened just like that!

Something like that could end his career as a truck driver.

 

[The Apparition]

yep! might of happened just like that!

It truly does come full circle. I went back and found this post of mine from March as the board was debating the truck accident theory. Behold in all it's glory my post from the locked "old" thread:

For devils advocate purposes my take on some of the questions raised about the car accident theory: If IR was fishing it would be very easy to fool him. He wouldn't hear any noise whatsoever while near a moving stream and if Deorr was bundled up quickly he could be told he's sleeping if he asked where he was. I don't know how well dogs work and not to be too grim but any signs of a low speed accident would probably be pretty easy to clean up. If there was blood on the ground you could shovel up the whole area and throw the dirt in the stream, no one would be able to notice if you just shuffled the dirt around once you were finished. The truck could be cleaned with any rag or paper towels and the evidence burned. Take the remains carefully bundled up and bury them. Go get a car wash, I'll have the deluxe please. Spend about 20-30 mins hauling around and splashing in mud puddles suddenly the truck doesn't look like it was cleaned. Check everything 2x call the cops.

As to the blood found on the truck, I am not an expert in those areas. I know luminol shows blood but who knows how much was spotted and if they were able to verify whether it was human or not. Also I'm not sure finding tiny amounts of blood even if it was human is enough to make arrests, having a confession, body, or witness would probably be needed.

Ok everyone poke away let me know what I missed.

 

[Criminal Justice mom]

Didn't they get rid of the truck right after the camping trip, and they hadn't owned it for very long at that point? Anyone know where that truck is now?

 

[KatieLiz]

Interesting how IR was led away from the CG when parents returned from store, right before the "DeOrr is missing ruse".

And in IR's words, he thought VDK and little Deorr were following but they didn't, they stayed / lagged behind. And then the question, was little Deorr even there ?

I also think it's a great point brought up earlier by rocket, if little Deorr was wearing a camo jacket, he would have had it on in the morning as that's when it's coolest. Which also doesn't fit with him sticking his arm up the tailpipe and getting black with soot. That sounds like a really strange thing for a kid to do anyway, IMO.

Good points! I can just imagine, boisterous VDK rolls up and hops out of the drivers seat- "Hey IR, I got worms. Grab your pole let's go. You go ahead, I'll just get Little Man out of his car seat and be right there..."

Also, in regards to the camp jacket-
I agree with everyone saying it makes no sense to have on in the heat. And there's also a chance the jacket comes back as the one they found at the apartment building. I think the only reason they said he was wearing Camo was as an excuse for how he could be blending in to the area if he wandered off. I doubt he was really in a Camo jacket (or alive that day...)

Also, in regards to the posts about him possibly being backed over by accident... I agree that I'm leaning towards him being backed over, but I think it was maybe intentional and deliberate. If you ACCIDENTALLY run over your child, you SCREAM, you WAIL, you perform CPR... You CALL 911. Even if you've been drinking. You don't quietly wrap him up so that Ir doesn't see. You don't conspire with others to cover up a crime, bury your child, and lie to the police and the media for a year (and counting...)

I don't see any accident that is worth being named a murder suspect over. If it's an accident you call the cops, get help, and accept your punishment. Nothing about any of their behaviour in the last year says "accident" to me. Just my opinion.

 

[KatieLiz]

This is the truck VDK took to the campground, right?

 

[The Apparition]

Good points! I can just imagine, boisterous VDK rolls up and hops out of the drivers seat- "Hey IR, I got worms. Grab your pole let's go. You go ahead, I'll just get Little Man out of his car seat and be right there..."

Also, in regards to the camp jacket-
I agree with everyone saying it makes no sense to have on in the heat. And there's also a chance the jacket comes back as the one they found at the apartment building. I think the only reason they said he was wearing Camo was as an excuse for how he could be blending in to the area if he wandered off. I doubt he was really in a Camo jacket (or alive that day...)

Also, in regards to the posts about him possibly being backed over by accident... I agree that I'm leaning towards him being backed over, but I think it was maybe intentional and deliberate. If you ACCIDENTALLY run over your child, you SCREAM, you WAIL, you perform CPR... You CALL 911. Even if you've been drinking. You don't quietly wrap him up so that Ir doesn't see. You don't conspire with others to cover up a crime, bury your child, and lie to the police and the media for a year (and counting...)

I don't see any accident that is worth being named a murder suspect over. If it's an accident you call the cops, get help, and accept your punishment. Nothing about any of their behaviour in the last year says "accident" to me. Just my opinion.

Excellent points. I have gone back and forth in my own mind about what happened (here's a small hint, not abduction or animals). I agree covering up an accident seems crazy but so does using your truck to kill your kid on purpose. Klein has hinted quite a bit that the truck played some part in this mystery. I lean towards high/drunk truck accident as most likely with beating gone too far in second place. I feel dirty and sad for even writing this but perhaps it was a combo, the child was accidentally killed by the truck but had obvious signs of physical abuse on his body so the plot was hatched...

 

[seventeenseconds]

Good points! I can just imagine, boisterous VDK rolls up and hops out of the drivers seat- "Hey IR, I got worms. Grab your pole let's go. You go ahead, I'll just get Little Man out of his car seat and be right there..."

Also, in regards to the camp jacket-
I agree with everyone saying it makes no sense to have on in the heat. And there's also a chance the jacket comes back as the one they found at the apartment building. I think the only reason they said he was wearing Camo was as an excuse for how he could be blending in to the area if he wandered off. I doubt he was really in a Camo jacket (or alive that day...)

Also, in regards to the posts about him possibly being backed over by accident... I agree that I'm leaning towards him being backed over, but I think it was maybe intentional and deliberate. If you ACCIDENTALLY run over your child, you SCREAM, you WAIL, you perform CPR... You CALL 911. Even if you've been drinking. You don't quietly wrap him up so that Ir doesn't see. You don't conspire with others to cover up a crime, bury your child, and lie to the police and the media for a year (and counting...)

I don't see any accident that is worth being named a murder suspect over. If it's an accident you call the cops, get help, and accept your punishment. Nothing about any of their behaviour in the last year says "accident" to me. Just my opinion.

That's my problem!!! What could have been so sinister that all 3 or 4 people would want to cover up. And Why?


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[Groundwork]

Sweet lil DeOrr I am so sad for you, what kind of an idiot lets their child play near an exhaust pipe, not only do those pipes get hot but the noxious soot that would be on there.

What if Vernal was going to move the truck and someone was supposed to be watching DeOrr, but they weren't and DeOrr had put his arm up the exhaust pipe, and the driver couldn't see him, they start the truck put it in gear, either dragged or ran over DeOrr

but why cover it up,

I had a terrible thought about 'why cover it up?'

SOMEWHAT GRAPHIC
(and really, really sad)

What if there was an accident due to negligence or poor decision-making that left the baby obviously terribly injured; alive but clearly so injured that he would never be 'normal' again (think traumatic brain injury). What if one of the three convinced the other two that the baby would never have a 'real' life, his care would cost incredible amounts of money (I wonder about the health insurance situation), someone would probably end up going to jail, Deorr would be a huge burden to someone the rest of their lives, and he would never get better anyway. What if a decision was then made to finish the job, perhaps using the shovel (omg), and concoct a cover story. What if they all felt like or convinced themselves that this was a justifiable death that avoided lots of unnecessary outside involvement, inconvenience to the family, and was 'the best thing' for the baby.

Unfortunately this doesn't seem out of the realm of possibility in this case and could address things such as ggp's statement of 'what's done is done,' the interest in the shovel, and why no one is turning on the others yet.

 

[Deleted member 278]

March 2016. Klein interview with Nate Eaton.

"Also today we are willing to announce that in our interviews with the grandfather, he did admit to investigators that he believes there was an accident."

now, add to this GGP's comments that what's done is done and then inquiring if there was going to be a funeral. There is no doubt in my mind that baby is dead. I'm still struggling with where it happened.

 

[Beezneez]

A lot of us are battling the idea of "why" they would cover up a legitimate accident. Because they are really stupid, selfish people. I can almost see that something accidental (due to negligence?) happened, and JM-A and VDK panicked. They are calling TBC & then GGP takes hold of the situation & directs them to clean up and hide Deorr. Meanwhile IR is hungover, sleeping and not really paying attention, until all of a sudden the baby is gone! GGP seems like a guy that has learned through experience that whether it's right or wrong sometimes you just shut up and cover up. He views JM-A and VDK as stupid kids he was looking out for by giving instruction in a crisis. VDK referring to a "trusted adult" hints that his trust has been betrayed- possibly in believing the cover plan from GGP would smooth things over. JM-A and TBC aren't going to go against the patriarch of the family, helpless old man in poor health and all- and they brought a scapegoat along for the ride. The split between the parents without one of them flipping on the other just proves they are both up to their ears in whatever happened.

 

[Makara]

I believe, (and PK has also intimated) that the relationship with JM and the new husband had been going on for a lot longer than the six weeks initially mentioned. Did VK have suspicions about this relationship and was poor little DeOrr the pawn between JM and VK? A case of an addled brain thinking if I can't have him, nobody will?

 

[neesaki]

Just watching the last video clip again and am intrigued by some of VDK's statements.

- At about 00:13 he states: "Jessica", then quickly changes it to "my son was over playing with Missy who was hooked to the back of my truck." I wonder what he started to say.
-Then he again repeats " Back on the back of my truck". Why repeat it, is that significant?
- Then goes on : "I remember, I went over to see what he was doing, he was in eyesight, but, I like playing with him. I like, ya know, little games, things like that". What does checking to see what he was doing have to do with liking to play with him? When we are going to check on our children to keep them out of trouble or make sure they're safe, we're not thinking of playing with them. At least that's how I see it.
- At about 00:32 : "And he has a real big.. he has a big fetish with cramming his arm in the black exhaust pipes of my trucks". Always comes out with a big arm full of exhaust". A "fetish" ? Wouldn't that mean it's something he's done at least a few times before?
-Yet at about 00:47 he states: "and his arms just solid black, and I went 'son' and he had that look on his face too, (laughs)... like his arm was just gone." He looked like his arm was gone?... as though it was the first time, not exactly a "fetish".

I'd really like to hear the rest of that interview. JMO

 

[Makara]

Just watching the last video clip again and am intrigued by some of VDK's statements.

- At about 00:13 he states: "Jessica", then quickly changes it to "my son was over playing with Missy who was hooked to the back of my truck." I wonder what he started to say.
-Then he again repeats " Back on the back of my truck". Why repeat it, is that significant?
- Then goes on : "I remember, I went over to see what he was doing, he was in eyesight, but, I like playing with him. I like, ya know, little games, things like that". What does checking to see what he was doing have to do with liking to play with him? When we are going to check on our children to keep them out of trouble or make sure they're safe, we're not thinking of playing with them. At least that's how I see it.
- At about 00:32 : "And he has a real big.. he has a big fetish with cramming his arm in the black exhaust pipes of my trucks". Always comes out with a big arm full of exhaust". A "fetish" ? Wouldn't that mean it's something he's done at least a few times before?
-Yet at about 00:47 he states: "and his arms just solid black, and I went 'son' and he had that look on his face too, (laughs)... like his arm was just gone." He looked like his arm was gone?... as though it was the first time, not exactly a "fetish".

I'd really like to hear the rest of that interview. JMO

Thanks neesaki. I've watched that video a few times now and each time it made my flesh crawl! VK looks so laid back and relaxed. It's as though he was having a chat about his last fishing holiday, not about his missing son DEORR. That is his name - DEORR!

 

[neesaki]

I believe, (and PK has also intimated) that the relationship with JM and the new husband had been going on for a lot longer than the six weeks initially mentioned. Did VK have suspicions about this relationship and was poor little DeOrr the pawn between JM and VK? A case of an addled brain thinking if I can't have him, nobody will?

Good point, perhaps a brain addled by anger, resentment and jealousy? And then add in any mind altering substances... Jmo

 

[neesaki]

Thanks neesaki. I've watched that video a few times now and each time it made my flesh crawl! VK looks so laid back and relaxed. It's as though he was having a chat about his last fishing holiday, not about his missing son DEORR. That is his name - DEORR!

And the creepy story about a little two year old having a "fetish" for putting his arm up the tail pipe is so bizarre! I can honestly say I've NEVER heard of anything like that. Maybe he put it up there when it was hot?! :scared: Or maybe someone did it to him. :cry: