ID - DeOrr Kunz Jr, 2, Timber Creek Campground, 10 July 2015 - #3

[Elainera]

While a small child could be intriguing to a wolf perhaps, the problem with this theory is that adults were around up until presumably the last few minutes. Wolves want nothing to do with "another" pack, especially the human variety. They would not hang around to see if the adults left.

Sarx what's your best guess at this point, where this little boy is?

 

[Elainera]

While a small child could be intriguing to a wolf perhaps, the problem with this theory is that adults were around up until presumably the last few minutes. Wolves want nothing to do with "another" pack, especially the human variety. They would not hang around to see if the adults left.

Even if they're desperate for food?

 

[La Louve]

So then that means a wolf/wolves ate absolutely every last bit of him including his clothing and boots and the dogs were unable to pick up anything?

I still dont know what I think of the wolf theory...lol

It could mean that, if a wolf got him. But IMO based on studying wolves for decades, I highly doubt it was a wolf. I'm leaning toward cougar, or somehow he drowned in the creek and his body got further away than the search area.

 

[La Louve]

Even if they're desperate for food?

I don't think a healthy pack of 15 wolves would be desperate for food.

 

[katydid23]

I don't really think it was wolves...HOWEVER, wasn't there a young couple suspected of killing their baby in the Austrailian Outback, on a camping trip----and it ened up being a DINGO. which is kind of like a wolf? more like a coyote maybe

 

[shellbythesea]

The Deorr case is all over the news here (in Idaho Falls), but no-one has said anything new here either.

 

[Elainera]

The Deorr case is all over the news here (in Idaho Falls), but no-one has said anything new here either.

And what were the other 'incidences' you were referring to? Other missing children?

 

[Elainera]

I don't really think it was wolves...HOWEVER, wasn't there a young couple suspected of killing their baby in the Austrailian Outback, on a camping trip----and it ened up being a DINGO. which is kind of like a wolf? more like a coyote maybe

Yes the death of baby Azaria Chantel Loren Chamberlain in 1980. The mother Lindy ended up in prison for the alleged murder of her baby and was released years later when completely by chance someone found a piece of clothing of Azaria in an area with known dingo lairs. It took until 2012 (32 years) until it was finally ruled that Azaria had been taken by a dingo.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Azaria_Chamberlain

 

[Hatfield]

It could mean that, if a wolf got him. But IMO based on studying wolves for decades, I highly doubt it was a wolf. I'm leaning toward cougar, or somehow he drowned in the creek and his body got further away than the search area.

That is so neat you have studied them. I have been fascinated with Wolves just from what little I have read about them. I have never lived near a state that had any.

For this case when I read that searches spotted a wolf I had thought it was a lone wolf. Now I am shocked to hear that there are 15 wolves in the area. I suppose I should have expected more since I do know they are a pack animal.

There are 3 questions I would have for this case about the wolves.

1-Is it possible that 15 wolf pack has learned that this camping area sometimes has lefover food from the campers and they would visit it often for scraps?

2-If the boy had managed to walk off on his own and got far enough away from camp where he was isolated by himself, then wouldnt it be rather likely that they would go ahead and attack him?

3-If the boy was attacked by the 15 pack of wolves somewhere not too far from campsite, do the wolves drag off their prey to a safer more secluded spot to feed on it OR would they be more likely to just feed on their kill right where they killed the prey?

 

[SuzDuJour]

Even when the dingo did it, clothing was found...

 

[Fitzrobin]

I know it sounds out there but I think they need to tranquilize one of the wolves from this pack and see what it has been feeding on. They are pack eaters and if a kill was made or found they would all eat. A lack of human tissue certainly would not rule out possible animal involvement but if it was positive it would answer A LOT of questions.

 

[La Louve]

I don't really think it was wolves...HOWEVER, wasn't there a young couple suspected of killing their baby in the Austrailian Outback, on a camping trip----and it ened up being a DINGO. which is kind of like a wolf? more like a coyote maybe

Dingoes are actually their own unique species, not descended from dogs or wolves.

http://www.australiangeographic.com.au/topics/wildlife/2014/04/dingo-declared-a-separate-species

I thought about coyotes last night. I have seen them lure a 100 pound labrador to the edge of the woods and then all of a sudden a bunch of coyotes came out from the sides and tried to flank the dog and get him away to kill him. A dog that probably outweighed a coyote by twice as much! Anyway, I could picture a coyote at the edge of the camping area, sees Deorr and starts wagging his tail, Deorr sees a "puppy" and goes running after it and.......

ETA one problem with the coyote theory though is they are noisy, especially with a kill. Lots of howling and "talking".

 

[Hatfield]

Dingoes are actually their own unique species, not descended from dogs or wolves.

http://www.australiangeographic.com.au/topics/wildlife/2014/04/dingo-declared-a-separate-species

I thought about coyotes last night. I have seen them lure a 100 pound labrador to the edge of the woods and then all of a sudden a bunch of coyotes came out from the sides and tried to flank the dog and get him away to kill him. A dog that probably outweighed a coyote by twice as much! Anyway, I could picture a coyote at the edge of the camping area, sees Deorr and starts wagging his tail, Deorr sees a "puppy" and goes running after it and.......

Thats a scary thought but is possible IMO.

I am quite familiar with those because we had rather large packs of them where I used to live. We would hear what sounded like hundreds of them at night all yelping and howling together. There was probably only about 15-20 at a time but it sounded like a 100 of them because they made quite the racket.

The interesting thing about them to me is we would be sitting outside at night and it would be real quiet with just cricket noises and then all of a sudden 1 coyote would yelp and then it was like the whole woods exploded with noise of the coyotes yelping and howling. This would go on for about 3 minutes and then it would stop and get silent again.

It was so interesting how they would get rather close and do that and we never knew they were even close by until they all sounded off.

 

[Amma]

Random thought...does anyone recall if the parents were specifically walking the entire time or might have brought along an ATV camping? It's not uncommon when camping in areas like that. I do recall seeing ramps off to the side of one of the trucks, just curious if it we know that is was also there camping.

 

[Hatfield]

Random thought...does anyone recall if the parents were specifically walking the entire time or might have brought along an ATV camping? It's not uncommon when camping in areas like that. I do recall seeing ramps off to the side of one of the trucks, just curious if it we know that is was also there camping.

No mention of them having an ATV in any of the articles I had read.

The black truck we saw in one picture that a lot of us believe was the parents truck did have an open truck bed in back so it is possible they had brought one up there but no mention anywhere I had read about an ATV being present.

 

[Elainera]

Even when the dingo did it, clothing was found...

6 years later ...

 

[Amma]

No mention of them having an ATV in any of the articles I had read.

The black truck we saw in one picture that a lot of us believe was the parents truck did have an open truck bed in back so it is possible they had brought one up there but no mention anywhere I had read about an ATV being present.

That image your describing also had the ramps off to the side if we are thinking of the same clip. That of course was during the search. Just curious if it was there while camping if it could potentially change hearing the sweet baby or not seeing him initially. I recall they were walking when they saw the minnows.

 

[La Louve]

That is so neat you have studied them. I have been fascinated with Wolves just from what little I have read about them. I have never lived near a state that had any.

For this case when I read that searches spotted a wolf I had thought it was a lone wolf. Now I am shocked to hear that there are 15 wolves in the area. I suppose I should have expected more since I do know they are a pack animal.

There are 3 questions I would have for this case about the wolves.

1-Is it possible that 15 wolf pack has learned that this camping area sometimes has lefover food from the campers and they would visit it often for scraps?

2-If the boy had managed to walk off on his own and got far enough away from camp where he was isolated by himself, then wouldnt it be rather likely that they would go ahead and attack him?

3-If the boy was attacked by the 15 pack of wolves somewhere not too far from campsite, do the wolves drag off their prey to a safer more secluded spot to feed on it OR would they be more likely to just feed on their kill right where they killed the prey?

1. I've never heard of wolves raiding campsites or garbage. Bears, yes. Wolves really do want nothing to do with humans. The smell of a campsite to their sensitive noses would scream HUMAN! GET AWAY! RUN FAST!!
And Idaho is not all that friendly to wolves IMO. Wolves were federally delisted a few years ago and Idaho has an active wolf "management" program. So if there were any indication wolves were bothering a campsite I think the Fish & Game managers would take care of that problem pretty quick.

2. Highly unlikely to the point that I would not even consider it. A baby calf or a kid (baby goat) or a lamb or a deer, sure. But not a little human. I am speaking of a healthy wolf. And the fact that there is a pack of 15 denning nearby says that there most likely aren't any lone or sick wolves around. They would be dispatched by a healthy pack in short order.

3. Generally wolves are hunting elk, deer, caribou, big ungulates (animals with hooves). So when they finally manage to kill one it's not gonna go anywhere and the wolves don't know how to build their own sleds (yet). So they will generally eat right there. But they do sometimes cache food too, for later. Bones especially as they will crack them open for the marrow. And I've seen photos of Arctic wolves and their pups playing with bones, tossing them in the air.

Another thing is that wolves can have multiple dens. So I'd be curious to know if this den the searchers found seemed to be in active use.

 

[giagreen]

Even when the dingo did it, clothing was found...

True but it did take years

 

[La Louve]

Thats a scary thought but is possible IMO.

I am quite familiar with those because we had rather large packs of them where I used to live. We would hear what sounded like hundreds of them at night all yelping and howling together. There was probably only about 15-20 at a time but it sounded like a 100 of them because they made quite the racket.

The interesting thing about them to me is we would be sitting outside at night and it would be real quiet with just cricket noises and then all of a sudden 1 coyote would yelp and then it was like the whole woods exploded with noise of the coyotes yelping and howling. This would go on for about 3 minutes and then it would stop and get silent again.

It was so interesting how they would get rather close and do that and we never knew they were even close by until they all sounded off.

And the other thing about coyotes is that they are much less afraid of humans than wolves. We have whole neighborhoods in the foothills of the Cascades here that are bothered by coyotes where humans have encroached on their territory. In many cities around the US there are now what are known as urban coyotes that live and thrive among humans.

And the sounds of coyotes is something you never forget. I was blessed one time to hear them calling across the canyon walls of Canyon De Chelly in Navajo country. It was like a choir echoing off the sandstone cliffs.