ID - DeOrr Kunz Jr, 2, Timber Creek Campground, 10 July 2015 - #4

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I've given up on keeping track of all the grandpas and who they live with/camp with. Unless someone draws me a tree with little houses and stick people and notes I can't keep track.

And now I really must get back to my housework rather than hanging out here all day!! I did manage to break away to go buy groceries.
 
I wish the investigators themselves start calling everyone by the proper title, it is confusing at times.

For instance, in the most recent news referring to IR, Sheriff said:

“He’s (been) a personal friend of grandpa’s for about five years. We are treating him no differently than the family, he has been questioned numerous times, and has been to the scene with me.”

Grandpa's or great-grandpa's?

I know. I wish they would just use names, although having three people named Deorr might be just as confusing.
 
Those sightings are quite old in comparison to the active case you referenced. When you say biker are you talking about a bicyclist (a cyclist) or a motorcycle/dirt bike (biker)? I have never heard of a mountain lion attacking someone on a motorized vehicle but if you have a link, I'd like to see it.


I understand and respect that everyone has their theories and their opinions and not everyone will agree. However, with that said I think that there should be some caution when suggesting any idea, theory, or opinion as fact. BBM above are several very definitive statements that have been made about the way mountain lions kill. I don't want to seem like I'm picking on anyone but I've been biting my tongue for some time on this and wanted to share some info.

Can they kill instantly and silently? Sure. Do they always? Absolutely not. In this link:

http://www.aws.vcn.com/mountain_lion_fact_sheet.html

that others have referenced as well, you can note a few things if you scroll down to the part titled

"Here are a few documented mountain lion attacks on humans"


In particular:

1. While the approach and initial attack may be silent and even not witnessed, the attack itself is often not silent or instant.

2. The neck is often a target for an attack on larger prey, sure, but think about this in terms of a toddler. Have you ever tried finding a toddler's neck even to tickle or kiss? They barely have a neck and if they do, it's tiny! You will see in the cases cited that most attacks on toddlers and young children don't involve the neck at all. A lion's mouth wouldn't fit and because they are opportunistic, they grab what is easiest for control. Absent an available neck, they grab heads and faces. This results in an attack that is neither silent nor instant.

3. Mountain lions may drag their prey away but even in the fatal Montana case that is referenced, they don't take it miles. In that case, they consumed the boy right near his home. They typically drag it to an area that is more private/covered, into brush, or just off the trail where an attack occurs. Also, note that even in the case of very small children, they are often dragged, not carried off the ground. If you think about how tall a lion is and how long a young, lifeless body would be (especially one being grasped by the head), there would be some dragging involved, even if it is just toes trailing. I know these are awful thoughts but they should be considered if we want to spend time on this as a possibility.


I believe if an attack occurred that the kill would have been discovered. I have been unable to find documentation of kills being carried or dragged for miles, only feet and yards.


http://balancedecology.org/mountainlionwebsite/Mountain_Lion_Behavior.html


"Behavior with Kill
After making a kill, the Mountain Lion will usually drag the kill to a protected area and feed on the shoulder and upper abdomen areas first. If cubs are present, they will feed on soft tissues before continuing to consume other body parts.
After feeding, Mountain Lions separate the internal organs from the main carcass and hide them at a distance before covering both with branches, soil, and leaves. Mountain Lions do not dig holes in order to bury their kills. They will behave with carcasses they scavenge on in the same way they behave with a kill.
Mountain Lions will return to the kill repeatedly until the meat is gone or, especially during the summer, until the meat has spoiled, at which time they will hunt again. As long as the meat is fresh, a Mountain Lion is taken out of the hunting cycle and will not kill. It is unclear how many and how often a Mountain Lion may kill large and small prey. Being opportunistic, Mountain Lions are able to switch their prey based on abundance and availability."



http://mdc.mo.gov/discover-nature/wildlife-reporting/mountain-lion-reports/mountain-lion-signs


"Kill Evidence

Mountain lions—They generally kill their prey quickly and efficiently. They creep close, then rush quickly to hit the animal and bite it either in the back of the neck to sever the spinal column, the throat to crush the trachea, or the skull to puncture the brain. They do not have long endurance, and do not make long chases.
Mountain lions use their claws primarily as hooks to hold onto their prey until they can administer a lethal bite. They seldom leave deep slashes.
After the prey is dead, they generally drag the carcass to dense cover to feed. They often open the abdominal cavity, roll out the stomach and intestines and begin feeding on the other soft internal organs. On other occasions they begin to feed at the shoulders and ribs.
After they’ve eaten their fill, mountain lions generally cover the remainder of the carcass with grass, leaves, dirt and other debris. They return to the kill for subsequent feedings as long as it lasts, or until they make another kill."




A point that was mentioned was that there might not be any trace at all left after a lion fully consumed him. Perhaps, if the lion was undisturbed, but I don't believe that the lion would have had time before being interrupted by the early search attempts. If the lion did retreat and even if it took the body with it as it left, I would think that there would be evidence left at the initial feed site. I base that opinion on the gruesome way a lion eats (see above).

I further believe that even if nothing was left at the feeding site, the blood and such that would inevitably remain would attract flies and that would be noticed. BBM


http://www.cbc.ca/m/touch/world/story/1.3085910

"Trekking through the dense bush in California's Santa Cruz mountains, field biologist Justine Smith is full of helpful tips.
Like this one: if you're searching for a hidden carcass and can't smell it, just listen.

"You can hear the flies around the carcass," Smith explains.
Smith is a doctoral student and researcher at the University of California, Santa Cruz. She and her colleagues at the Santa Cruz Puma Project are trying to figure out what impact people — and the nearby roads — are having on the mountain lions, which are also known as cougars or pumas. Humans may be setting the protected species on a slow, quiet path to extinction."

Another reason why I question the possibility of a lion being responsible is that many studies have shown that lions avoid wolves for a very good reason. Wolves kill mountain lions and we know a pack of wolves were in the area.

http://voices.nationalgeographic.com/2013/12/04/hunters-or-hunted-wolves-vs-mountain-lions/

"In fact, wolves kill mountain lions. This has never been disputed. Wolves are considered the dominant competitors in most interactions between the species. Take for instance, the Hornocker Institute study of mountain lions in Northern Yellowstone led by Dr. Toni Ruth, in which researchers discovered the remains of three mountain lions killed by wolves. What is contentious is the idea that mountain lions might kill wolves."

I'm not saying that an animal attack (or scavenging activity) was impossible but let's use supported facts and not assumptions and opinions if we want to explore it as an option. Mountain lions can be scary but they are just animals. They aren't supernatural in any way. I live, work, hike, camp and play in country that is home to mountain lions, wolves, grizzlies, black bears, coyotes, lynx, bobcats and any other North American critter you can think of. They are certainly to be respected and attacks do happen but I honestly feel that I am in more danger behind the wheel when I drive to the campsites and trail heads that I go to than I am just hanging around camp, even if I was wearing a Lady Gaga meat dress. :) (Trying to lighten the mood after my gruesome and long post).

Thank you so much Lizzzard! I asked for a link up the thread regarding mountain lions killing more than they can eat and your post answered my question ;-) I too live, work, hike, camp and play in country that is home to all the same animals as you with the exception of the grizzly bear. I appreciate the time you took to compile these fabulous links about the infamous COUGAR along with the summaries that are very well written and easy to understand. YOU ROCK!
 
I'm just using your comment as a launching point. :)

I can't speak for anyone else, but my lion theory isn't based at all on it being a hotbed of activity. I have two reasons; context and a young lion. Young lions who are freshly kicked out of the "nest" are wandering looking for their own territory and struggling to survive on their own for the first time. It's a desperate and dangerous time for them wherein they'd behave in ways that a "typical" mature lion would not (approaching humans for instance).

Regarding context we have a child who suddenly vanished without a trace in the isolated and remote wilderness (not a suburban back yard). I think a predator is a logical conclusion. LE has gone on record as having not ruled it out also. I do think he's lost and just not been found, however, my next close guess is a predator.

As far as evidence goes, there's no evidence of anything at all that we've been told so either we aren't being told everything (highly likely) or there's no more evidence for an abduction or lost child as there is for a predator. Every single theory in this thread is based on zero evidence.

ITA with what you've posted, this is how I think also but let me take it one step further. There are a LOT of disappeared young children from rural/wilderness areas. It just stands to reason statistically that at least a small fraction have been taken by a predator - the catamount being my predator of choice.

ALTHOUGH, like the officials, I cannot rule out foul play.
 
REMINDER: If you post a link and it shows up with a series of asterisks, that indicates the site and all of its contents is banned on WS. The link won't work. And remember: no link, no post.

Typing the site's name, or not typing the name, won't change a thing. Banned is banned, and you should remove your post as soon as you see those *******.
 
I'm just using your comment as a launching point. :)

I can't speak for anyone else, but my lion theory isn't based at all on it being a hotbed of activity. I have two reasons; context and a young lion. Young lions who are freshly kicked out of the "nest" are wandering looking for their own territory and struggling to survive on their own for the first time. It's a desperate and dangerous time for them wherein they'd behave in ways that a "typical" mature lion would not (approaching humans for instance).

Regarding context we have a child who suddenly vanished without a trace in the isolated and remote wilderness (not a suburban back yard). I think a predator is a logical conclusion. LE has gone on record as having not ruled it out also. I do think he's lost and just not been found, however, my next close guess is a predator.

As far as evidence goes, there's no evidence of anything at all that we've been told so either we aren't being told everything (highly likely) or there's no more evidence for an abduction or lost child as there is for a predator. Every single theory in this thread is based on zero evidence
Not true. There are facts in this case and likely theories are based upon those facts. We aren't at liberty to explore the most logical theories here so it is very limited on what evidence we can key in on. As this case unfolds, you will see how the theories thus far go hand in hand with how it plays out.

bbm
 
The way the news has come out is terribly confusing.

Here is another question I have. Why would the sheriff call him "Grandpa"? Is it possible the Sheriff is related to this family?

Its unusual to me that he would say that in an interview. I know we do it here because we did not have names of people at first but for LE to reference people you would think they would reference their name with Sr or something like that.


“Yes, he was at the scene,” Bowerman said in an email. “He’s (been) a personal friend of grandpa’s for about five years. We are treating him no differently than the family, he has been questioned numerous times, and has been to the scene with me.”

http://www.eastidahonews.com/2015/07/sheriff-family-friend-not-a-suspect-in-deorr-kunz-case/



My guess would be that his point of reference are the missing boy's parents who call him Grandpa. Also, the alternative would be to use his name and we all know how reluctant he's been to do that. I suppose he could have said, "DeOrr Jr's Great-Grandpa," but I suspect it's a shortcut he's just gotten used to using. MOO
 
[video=youtube;mwM1oG3z358]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mwM1oG3z358[/video]

If you haven't had a chance to watch the complete video of the parents' interview, please take a few minutes to do so. They seem so lost without their little boy and so very thankful for everyone helping with his search.
 
Not true. There are facts in this case and likely theories are based upon those facts. We aren't at liberty to explore the most logical theories here so it is very limited on what evidence we can key in on. As this case unfolds, you will see how the theories thus far go hand in hand with how it plays out.

bbm

BBM. What facts?
 
ITA with what you've posted, this is how I think also but let me take it one step further. There are a LOT of disappeared young children from rural/wilderness areas. It just stands to reason statistically that at least a small fraction have been taken by a predator - the catamount being my predator of choice.

ALTHOUGH, like the officials, I cannot rule out foul play.

Yes, I agree and was going to mention that, but I was trying to keep my post short. I tend to ramble. :D
 
Sorry for all the quotes, I wanted to capture the discussion. Maybe I can clear up some of the confusion. Personally, I entirely discount the 4 minute claim as hearsay. The People article, quoted the Paternal Grandfather, also named DeOrr, and he was not at the campground. The Maternal Great Grandfather, was the one that joined them on the camping trip. He has "declining physical and mental health" so even if he said it was "just 4 minutes", I wouldn't put too much weight on it.

Here are the links for reference: http://www.people.com/article/missing-boy-idaho-grandfather-speaks and http://www.eastidahonews.com/2015/07/sheriff-family-friend-not-a-suspect-in-deorr-kunz-case/

From People: "Mitchell's father-in-law, also named DeOrr Kunz, tells PEOPLE." So it was the paternal grandfather speaking. "The elder Kunz says the boy's parents were setting up camp and assumed Mitchell's grandfather, who was also on the trip, was watching the boy."

From East Idaho News: "The great-grandfather, who authorities have not identified, also has not been labeled as a suspect. Authorities said his declining physical and mental health ruled him out at the beginning of the case."

I agree that the "4 minutes" comment can be discounted. In fact, anything said by anyone who wasn't at the campsite can only be repeating what s/he has been told, so most of that is probably not reliable, either.

Strangely, when we didn't know who the "friend" was, my first impulse was that ggp had glaucoma and the friend provided his "medication". After watching this video, I think my gut was pretty darn close! From what another poster said (sorry, no link, but please jump in) it sounds like JM was ggp's care giver, which makes sense why they would take him camping in his condition - it was an "outing" with his granddaughter/nurse's aide and her family. He was not along to provide child care, even for a minute, as he needed some degree of care himself.

It doesn't look like ggp or IR would be capable of keeping track of a toddler or springing into action (chasing or calling out to the baby or parents) if Deorr took off. This is such a different picture than I had in my mind when Deorr's disappearance was first made public. Regardless of the timeline, I can't wrap my mind around how/why anyone would leave an awake 2 year-old with these people. If he was sleeping in the truck cab, or somehow corralled, it would make more sense, but even then, the parents had never met IR before, so they had no idea how he would deal with a cranky or frightened child.

In their interview, why did they not mention the friend even once - it was as if he wasn't even there (unless I missed it). If JM was ggp's caretaker, I would think he rode to camp with them. Did IR meet them there in his own vehicle? Meet them there with ggp? Who went to the store? Does "as a family" include ggp or did he stay with IR? Did the store clerk see JM when she saw the dirty little boy and the man with the black truck? I'm assuming by now the clerk has been shown a photo lineup and identified the man as Deorr, Sr., IR or neither. If it was a false alarm, why hasn't that been released as with the Walmart reporting? What time did the first LE and S&R arrive? Before or after 6 pm? Was the Kunz' black truck there? How soon did the dogs arrive?

So many questions. Hoping someone here knows the answers. TIA.
 
Those sightings are quite old in comparison to the active case you referenced. When you say biker are you talking about a bicyclist (a cyclist) or a motorcycle/dirt bike (biker)? I have never heard of a mountain lion attacking someone on a motorized vehicle but if you have a link, I'd like to see it.










I understand and respect that everyone has their theories and their opinions and not everyone will agree. However, with that said I think that there should be some caution when suggesting any idea, theory, or opinion as fact. BBM above are several very definitive statements that have been made about the way mountain lions kill. I don't want to seem like I'm picking on anyone but I've been biting my tongue for some time on this and wanted to share some info.

Can they kill instantly and silently? Sure. Do they always? Absolutely not. In this link:

http://www.aws.vcn.com/mountain_lion_fact_sheet.html

that others have referenced as well, you can note a few things if you scroll down to the part titled

"Here are a few documented mountain lion attacks on humans"


In particular:

1. While the approach and initial attack may be silent and even not witnessed, the attack itself is often not silent or instant.

2. The neck is often a target for an attack on larger prey, sure, but think about this in terms of a toddler. Have you ever tried finding a toddler's neck even to tickle or kiss? They barely have a neck and if they do, it's tiny! You will see in the cases cited that most attacks on toddlers and young children don't involve the neck at all. A lion's mouth wouldn't fit and because they are opportunistic, they grab what is easiest for control. Absent an available neck, they grab heads and faces. This results in an attack that is neither silent nor instant.

3. Mountain lions may drag their prey away but even in the fatal Montana case that is referenced, they don't take it miles. In that case, they consumed the boy right near his home. They typically drag it to an area that is more private/covered, into brush, or just off the trail where an attack occurs. Also, note that even in the case of very small children, they are often dragged, not carried off the ground. If you think about how tall a lion is and how long a young, lifeless body would be (especially one being grasped by the head), there would be some dragging involved, even if it is just toes trailing. I know these are awful thoughts but they should be considered if we want to spend time on this as a possibility.


I believe if an attack occurred that the kill would have been discovered. I have been unable to find documentation of kills being carried or dragged for miles, only feet and yards.


http://balancedecology.org/mountainlionwebsite/Mountain_Lion_Behavior.html


"Behavior with Kill
After making a kill, the Mountain Lion will usually drag the kill to a protected area and feed on the shoulder and upper abdomen areas first. If cubs are present, they will feed on soft tissues before continuing to consume other body parts.
After feeding, Mountain Lions separate the internal organs from the main carcass and hide them at a distance before covering both with branches, soil, and leaves. Mountain Lions do not dig holes in order to bury their kills. They will behave with carcasses they scavenge on in the same way they behave with a kill.
Mountain Lions will return to the kill repeatedly until the meat is gone or, especially during the summer, until the meat has spoiled, at which time they will hunt again. As long as the meat is fresh, a Mountain Lion is taken out of the hunting cycle and will not kill. It is unclear how many and how often a Mountain Lion may kill large and small prey. Being opportunistic, Mountain Lions are able to switch their prey based on abundance and availability."



http://mdc.mo.gov/discover-nature/wildlife-reporting/mountain-lion-reports/mountain-lion-signs


"Kill Evidence

Mountain lions—They generally kill their prey quickly and efficiently. They creep close, then rush quickly to hit the animal and bite it either in the back of the neck to sever the spinal column, the throat to crush the trachea, or the skull to puncture the brain. They do not have long endurance, and do not make long chases.
Mountain lions use their claws primarily as hooks to hold onto their prey until they can administer a lethal bite. They seldom leave deep slashes.
After the prey is dead, they generally drag the carcass to dense cover to feed. They often open the abdominal cavity, roll out the stomach and intestines and begin feeding on the other soft internal organs. On other occasions they begin to feed at the shoulders and ribs.
After they’ve eaten their fill, mountain lions generally cover the remainder of the carcass with grass, leaves, dirt and other debris. They return to the kill for subsequent feedings as long as it lasts, or until they make another kill."




A point that was mentioned was that there might not be any trace at all left after a lion fully consumed him. Perhaps, if the lion was undisturbed, but I don't believe that the lion would have had time before being interrupted by the early search attempts. If the lion did retreat and even if it took the body with it as it left, I would think that there would be evidence left at the initial feed site. I base that opinion on the gruesome way a lion eats (see above).

I further believe that even if nothing was left at the feeding site, the blood and such that would inevitably remain would attract flies and that would be noticed. BBM


http://www.cbc.ca/m/touch/world/story/1.3085910

"Trekking through the dense bush in California's Santa Cruz mountains, field biologist Justine Smith is full of helpful tips.
Like this one: if you're searching for a hidden carcass and can't smell it, just listen.

"You can hear the flies around the carcass," Smith explains.
Smith is a doctoral student and researcher at the University of California, Santa Cruz. She and her colleagues at the Santa Cruz Puma Project are trying to figure out what impact people — and the nearby roads — are having on the mountain lions, which are also known as cougars or pumas. Humans may be setting the protected species on a slow, quiet path to extinction."

Another reason why I question the possibility of a lion being responsible is that many studies have shown that lions avoid wolves for a very good reason. Wolves kill mountain lions and we know a pack of wolves were in the area.

http://voices.nationalgeographic.com/2013/12/04/hunters-or-hunted-wolves-vs-mountain-lions/

"In fact, wolves kill mountain lions. This has never been disputed. Wolves are considered the dominant competitors in most interactions between the species. Take for instance, the Hornocker Institute study of mountain lions in Northern Yellowstone led by Dr. Toni Ruth, in which researchers discovered the remains of three mountain lions killed by wolves. What is contentious is the idea that mountain lions might kill wolves."

I'm not saying that an animal attack (or scavenging activity) was impossible but let's use supported facts and not assumptions and opinions if we want to explore it as an option. Mountain lions can be scary but they are just animals. They aren't supernatural in any way. I live, work, hike, camp and play in country that is home to mountain lions, wolves, grizzlies, black bears, coyotes, lynx, bobcats and any other North American critter you can think of. They are certainly to be respected and attacks do happen but I honestly feel that I am in more danger behind the wheel when I drive to the campsites and trail heads that I go to than I am just hanging around camp, even if I was wearing a Lady Gaga meat dress. :) (Trying to lighten the mood after my gruesome and long post).
Great post and I agree with you. I grew up with bobcats in my backyard and other dangerous predators roaming the woods.

OT/ I would like to see a photo of you in the Lady Gaga meat dress hanging around a campsite...while making s'mores and singing, "Kumbaya" please. Mood lightened. ;)
 
:blushing: I hate when people do that..:blushing:


Lizzard, are you a rambler too, lol? I try to put in a lot of paragraphs (incorrectly I'm sure) just to make my rambles easier on ye olde eyeballs. ;D
 
The way the news has come out is terribly confusing.

Here is another question I have. Why would the sheriff call him "Grandpa"? Is it possible the Sheriff is related to this family?

Its unusual to me that he would say that in an interview. I know we do it here because we did not have names of people at first but for LE to reference people you would think they would reference their name with Sr or something like that.


“Yes, he was at the scene,” Bowerman said in an email. “He’s (been) a personal friend of grandpa’s for about five years. We are treating him no differently than the family, he has been questioned numerous times, and has been to the scene with me.”

http://www.eastidahonews.com/2015/07/sheriff-family-friend-not-a-suspect-in-deorr-kunz-case/

BBM

My impression is they are trying very hard to keep the name of Jessica's grandpa (little DeOrr's great-grandpa) out of the news, most likely because of his failing health and their belief that he has no involvement in little DeOrr's disappearance. I have no idea whether the sheriff is related, I suppose he could be, but that didn't even enter my mind when I was listening to the sheriff. I just think he's using the generic term to keep the name private. And I think he's using "grandpa" instead of "great-grandpa" because Jessica would refer to him as grandpa, and so the sheriff is using that nomenclature too.
 
I've been thinking about the store clerk and the fact that she hasn't done a media interview but has provided LE with a statement that they are not releasing. The only reason I can think of for the wall between her and MSM / the public is that she provided LE with some vital piece of evidence/information that they are keeping close to their chests in preparation for when they will need it to form a case against the guilty party...
 
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