ID - DeOrr Kunz Jr, 2, Timber Creek Campground, 10 July 2015 - #4

[renarde]

Bringing this over from previous thread.

Transcript between the 7:00 and 8:00 minute marks which discusses the store.

Reporter: Is there any rumors that you've seen or anything you want to clear up, Jessica?

JM: I just . . . Somebody at the store, um, in Leadore, said, it was one of the ladies that had worked at the store said that they saw, um, a gentleman and a younger blonde boy matching our description of our son, really filthy, buying candy for him and he was just bawling, in a black truck. That is the only . . .

DK: Here's the problem.

JM: . . . other . . .

DK: My pickup truck's black.

JM: [indicating DK] He drives a black truck.

DK: As a family we went down to get some, to get a few things.

Reporter: So it could have been you?

JM: Earlier, it was earlier that day.

DK: It was me, but it, but they claim it was at 6:00 that evening and I, we, we still were with Search and Rescue until, what [turning to JM] a quarter till four?

JM: Yeah, from . . .

DK: We didn't never, we never . . . we haven't left the camp since 1:00 that afternoon. So it's just a lot of hearsay . . . and . . .

Reporter: Was anybody camping around you?

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk

I wish Jessica could've finished what she was saying...

 

[CDB]

I just wanted to link some of the hunting info that I found on Idaho F&G. Based on the map, I believe that they were camping in unit 37.

http://fishandgame.idaho.gov/ifwis/huntplanner/mapcenter/

The most recent statistics available, that I could find, on lion hunts in Idaho is from 2012. It indicates one lion was taken in unit 37 that year. Previous years also show one or no lions taken in that unit.

http://fishandgame.idaho.gov/ifwis/huntplanner/stats.aspx?season=general&game=lion&yr=2012#lion

It is important to note that Mountain Lion hunting in Idaho is conducted with packs of hound dogs trained to follow the sent of the cat until it is treed. They cover large areas of land and key on to animal scent. To have only one cat in any given unit reported as harvested suggests a very low density.

 

[Jules71]

I wish the investigators themselves start calling everyone by the proper title, it is confusing at times.

For instance, in the most recent news referring to IR, Sheriff said:

“He’s (been) a personal friend of grandpa’s for about five years. We are treating him no differently than the family, he has been questioned numerous times, and has been to the scene with me.”

Grandpa's or great-grandpa's?

You know that is a good point. We have all assumed IR was friends with the great grandfather on the trip (Jessica's grandpa). But maybe he is friends with grandpa Kunz (Deorr senior's dad).

Would have to go back and re-read everything.

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk

 

[ClaireNC]

You know that is a good point. We have all assumed IR was friends with the great grandfather on the trip (Jessica's grandpa). But maybe he is friends with grandpa Kunz (Deorr senior's dad).

Would have to go back and re-read everything.

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk

He is friends with Jessica's Great Grandfather, the one that was on the camping trip. (modsnip)

 

[bluesneakers]

Who was not there? Sorry, I'm confused.

The GGF in the PEOPLE article is Deorr's father's dad who was not on the trip. It's been confusing people here for awhile but I thought everyone was aware of that. Sorry. I should have specified in my post because I know not everyone has been reading along the whole time.

 

[Lizzzard]

There is a new case on WS about a teacher who went missing Friday in Eldorado County, CA while dirt biking in the national forest there. He became separated from his friend and went missing. There have been numerous mountain lion attacks in California, to include some attacks on bikers, at least one of which was fatal.

I want to add this link: http://www.mtdemocrat.com/search/mountain lion sightings

These are sightings of mountain lions in the area where this biker went missing. I wonder if anyone is thinking . . . . Mountain lion attack?

Those sightings are quite old in comparison to the active case you referenced. When you say biker are you talking about a bicyclist (a cyclist) or a motorcycle/dirt bike (biker)? I have never heard of a mountain lion attacking someone on a motorized vehicle but if you have a link, I'd like to see it.

I really don't think a 28 lb toddler would have been able to put up much of a struggle against a 130 lb. mountain lion - sad to say, he'd have died instantly and it could have been bloodless at the point he was snatched. Lions kill their prey by breaking their necks, killing their prey instantly. There would likely be no time to scream or react for a child of that size who would not have been expecting it. Sorry for the graphic description.

Then please read up on mountain lions. Read many, many sources. Learn their behaviors. The kill WOULD have been instant on the "first shot". The mountain lion would NOT have been seen. There would be NO struggle from a child so small and a kill so swift. All the things you believe could NOT have happened coincide with how the cougar hunts. They drag prey that is too large or too heavy to carry. Circumstances would also have a bearing on how the lion retreated.

I believe Deorr's scent WAS picked up at the campsite, no? If he was attacked by the lion at the campsite and carried away, where else would his scent be except wherever the lion eventually hid him? I doubt there was a scream as death would have been instant. There would have been no struggle. There would not necessarily be blood left at the point of capture. I respect your opinion so we will have to agree to disagree.

I understand and respect that everyone has their theories and their opinions and not everyone will agree. However, with that said I think that there should be some caution when suggesting any idea, theory, or opinion as fact. BBM above are several very definitive statements that have been made about the way mountain lions kill. I don't want to seem like I'm picking on anyone but I've been biting my tongue for some time on this and wanted to share some info.

Can they kill instantly and silently? Sure. Do they always? Absolutely not. In this link:

http://www.aws.vcn.com/mountain_lion_fact_sheet.html

that others have referenced as well, you can note a few things if you scroll down to the part titled

"Here are a few documented mountain lion attacks on humans"


In particular:

1. While the approach and initial attack may be silent and even not witnessed, the attack itself is often not silent or instant.

2. The neck is often a target for an attack on larger prey, sure, but think about this in terms of a toddler. Have you ever tried finding a toddler's neck even to tickle or kiss? They barely have a neck and if they do, it's tiny! You will see in the cases cited that most attacks on toddlers and young children don't involve the neck at all. A lion's mouth wouldn't fit and because they are opportunistic, they grab what is easiest for control. Absent an available neck, they grab heads and faces. This results in an attack that is neither silent nor instant.

3. Mountain lions may drag their prey away but even in the fatal Montana case that is referenced, they don't take it miles. In that case, they consumed the boy right near his home. They typically drag it to an area that is more private/covered, into brush, or just off the trail where an attack occurs. Also, note that even in the case of very small children, they are often dragged, not carried off the ground. If you think about how tall a lion is and how long a young, lifeless body would be (especially one being grasped by the head), there would be some dragging involved, even if it is just toes trailing. I know these are awful thoughts but they should be considered if we want to spend time on this as a possibility.


I believe if an attack occurred that the kill would have been discovered. I have been unable to find documentation of kills being carried or dragged for miles, only feet and yards.


http://balancedecology.org/mountainlionwebsite/Mountain_Lion_Behavior.html


"Behavior with Kill
After making a kill, the Mountain Lion will usually drag the kill to a protected area and feed on the shoulder and upper abdomen areas first. If cubs are present, they will feed on soft tissues before continuing to consume other body parts.
After feeding, Mountain Lions separate the internal organs from the main carcass and hide them at a distance before covering both with branches, soil, and leaves. Mountain Lions do not dig holes in order to bury their kills. They will behave with carcasses they scavenge on in the same way they behave with a kill.
Mountain Lions will return to the kill repeatedly until the meat is gone or, especially during the summer, until the meat has spoiled, at which time they will hunt again. As long as the meat is fresh, a Mountain Lion is taken out of the hunting cycle and will not kill. It is unclear how many and how often a Mountain Lion may kill large and small prey. Being opportunistic, Mountain Lions are able to switch their prey based on abundance and availability."



http://mdc.mo.gov/discover-nature/wildlife-reporting/mountain-lion-reports/mountain-lion-signs


"Kill Evidence
Mountain lions—They generally kill their prey quickly and efficiently. They creep close, then rush quickly to hit the animal and bite it either in the back of the neck to sever the spinal column, the throat to crush the trachea, or the skull to puncture the brain. They do not have long endurance, and do not make long chases.
Mountain lions use their claws primarily as hooks to hold onto their prey until they can administer a lethal bite. They seldom leave deep slashes.
After the prey is dead, they generally drag the carcass to dense cover to feed. They often open the abdominal cavity, roll out the stomach and intestines and begin feeding on the other soft internal organs. On other occasions they begin to feed at the shoulders and ribs.
After they’ve eaten their fill, mountain lions generally cover the remainder of the carcass with grass, leaves, dirt and other debris. They return to the kill for subsequent feedings as long as it lasts, or until they make another kill."




A point that was mentioned was that there might not be any trace at all left after a lion fully consumed him. Perhaps, if the lion was undisturbed, but I don't believe that the lion would have had time before being interrupted by the early search attempts. If the lion did retreat and even if it took the body with it as it left, I would think that there would be evidence left at the initial feed site. I base that opinion on the gruesome way a lion eats (see above).

I further believe that even if nothing was left at the feeding site, the blood and such that would inevitably remain would attract flies and that would be noticed. BBM


http://www.cbc.ca/m/touch/world/story/1.3085910

"Trekking through the dense bush in California's Santa Cruz mountains, field biologist Justine Smith is full of helpful tips.
Like this one: if you're searching for a hidden carcass and can't smell it, just listen.
"You can hear the flies around the carcass," Smith explains.
Smith is a doctoral student and researcher at the University of California, Santa Cruz. She and her colleagues at the Santa Cruz Puma Project are trying to figure out what impact people — and the nearby roads — are having on the mountain lions, which are also known as cougars or pumas. Humans may be setting the protected species on a slow, quiet path to extinction."

Another reason why I question the possibility of a lion being responsible is that many studies have shown that lions avoid wolves for a very good reason. Wolves kill mountain lions and we know a pack of wolves were in the area.

http://voices.nationalgeographic.com/2013/12/04/hunters-or-hunted-wolves-vs-mountain-lions/

"In fact, wolves kill mountain lions. This has never been disputed. Wolves are considered the dominant competitors in most interactions between the species. Take for instance, the Hornocker Institute study of mountain lions in Northern Yellowstone led by Dr. Toni Ruth, in which researchers discovered the remains of three mountain lions killed by wolves. What is contentious is the idea that mountain lions might kill wolves."

I'm not saying that an animal attack (or scavenging activity) was impossible but let's use supported facts and not assumptions and opinions if we want to explore it as an option. Mountain lions can be scary but they are just animals. They aren't supernatural in any way. I live, work, hike, camp and play in country that is home to mountain lions, wolves, grizzlies, black bears, coyotes, lynx, bobcats and any other North American critter you can think of. They are certainly to be respected and attacks do happen but I honestly feel that I am in more danger behind the wheel when I drive to the campsites and trail heads that I go to than I am just hanging around camp, even if I was wearing a Lady Gaga meat dress. (Trying to lighten the mood after my gruesome and long post).

 

[wondering25]

Dad drives a truck for a living? Does anyone remember in the long video interview that dad saying something to the effect that the rumors were saying his boss wanted him back at work or something about his boss.. what did that have to do with anything? i thought that was out of context.. anyone? I cant find the video..

 

[bluesneakers]

Sorry for all the quotes, I wanted to capture the discussion. Maybe I can clear up some of the confusion. Personally, I entirely discount the 4 minute claim as hearsay. The People article, quoted the Paternal Grandfather, also named DeOrr, and he was not at the campground. The Maternal Great Grandfather, was the one that joined them on the camping trip. He has "declining physical and mental health" so even if he said it was "just 4 minutes", I wouldn't put too much weight on it.

Here are the links for reference: http://www.people.com/article/missing-boy-idaho-grandfather-speaks and http://www.eastidahonews.com/2015/07/sheriff-family-friend-not-a-suspect-in-deorr-kunz-case/

From People: "Mitchell's father-in-law, also named DeOrr Kunz, tells PEOPLE." So it was the paternal grandfather speaking. "The elder Kunz says the boy's parents were setting up camp and assumed Mitchell's grandfather, who was also on the trip, was watching the boy."

From East Idaho News: "The great-grandfather, who authorities have not identified, also has not been labeled as a suspect. Authorities said his declining physical and mental health ruled him out at the beginning of the case."

Sorry for all the posts! I just wanted to add oops, I should have learned by now to read backwards when I've been away from a thread for so long! Or at least remember to not reply until after I've read everything.

I'll try to be more careful and not spam everyone with information that's already been shared.

Starting after this post.

 

[bluesneakers]

I wish Jessica could've finished what she was saying...

Me too, and I really wish they would have addressed that bag.

 

[Purplepixii]

Thank you! The McCann case is just one of many examples.

Just popping in to offer this link as side-reading - it is a good reminder (as well as the entire McCann case) of why we need to take on some responsibility for how we prejudge players in a mp case when, regardless of the tools and skills we have or not, is limited to an outside perspective.

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/a...urts-full-of-twittering-bullies-26848113.html

I hope all LE involved here are keeping their sights clear and that one day soon we find out what happened to this little boy.

Oh no, don't get me started on that case or I'll earn a Time Out before I've finished catching up on this thread!

 

[bluesneakers]

Dad drives a truck for a living? Does anyone remember in the long video interview that dad saying something to the effect that the rumors were saying his boss wanted him back at work or something about his boss.. what did that have to do with anything? i thought that was out of context.. anyone? I cant find the video..

That was from the first interview. I think it might not have been SM (just guessing though) but was people they know and/or people at his work gossiping. I got the feeling he was saying that because his boss or someone mentioned it and was not impressed. If the rumour mill is saying negative things about your employer I could understand the employer saying you need to clear this up right now. It would reflect very badly on them. Speculating and JMO.

 

[Jackeee]

Dad drives a truck for a living? Does anyone remember in the long video interview that dad saying something to the effect that the rumors were saying his boss wanted him back at work or something about his boss.. what did that have to do with anything? i thought that was out of context.. anyone? I cant find the video..

You can find the unedited interview on YouTube. Sorry I haven't figured out how to post links so I hope it doesn't get me in trouble.

 

[CDB]

My kids would go any which way, path or no. If something caught their attention, bird, squirrel, they would run through the trees after it. I kinda know whereof I speak having raised 6 to adulthood.

This is such a probable scenario.

Last year as we prepared for a camp trip, I was in Walmart. as I was working my way through the camp list, I walked past a box of nets with 5 foot bamboo handles. They were billed as butterfly nets. (Before I finish this story and get flamed, let me preface my children are 18, 17 and 11) I purchased these thinking this will be a great activity for the kids. Half of a good camp trip is keeping the children busy and engaged, they seem so lost once a cell phone does not work.

Well, once at the camp site, which was next to a very small roughly 6 inch deep 3 foot wide creek, the children discovered there were no butterflies, but there were tons of little minnows. My simple thought of the kids busting through the fields catching butterflies turned into an endless fight to keep them out of the water.

Who knows what unforeseen, new to DeOrr, items caught his attention and might have caused him to wander even into areas that do not represent a pathway or worse crawl into a rock crevasse or brush tangle.

 

[Hatfield]

Dad drives a truck for a living? Does anyone remember in the long video interview that dad saying something to the effect that the rumors were saying his boss wanted him back at work or something about his boss.. what did that have to do with anything? i thought that was out of context.. anyone? I cant find the video..

That didnt bother me because of how the interview went.

Its in the long interview. It was the part where the interviewer asked the parents if they wanted to clear up any rumors or other questions people were having.

So they were taking the opportunity to address some of the things they must have seen on SM or somewhere else.

 

[IDTater]

That makes sense since usually one lion occupies a large territory. Once that lion is killed, another lion would move in. A mother and her cubs will occupy a territory which might overlap somewhat into another lion's territory, especially an adult offspring female.

But if you look at harvest numbers for other units, there's one with 50 lions harvested in 2012, another with 41, multiple with 20+. The units covering and surrounding where this child disappeared have little to no lions harvested. It just doesn't appear to be a hotbed of mountain lion activity.

 

[Lizzzard]

I feel sorry for the person scattering the cremains. I'm sure the moment was meant to be private and meaningful with the hopes of having a peaceful "last moment alone" with a loved one. To find out your activities may have thwarted a rescue mission would be upsetting.

I thought about that too. So much sadness for so many with this case.

 

[TheGambler]

You know that is a good point. We have all assumed IR was friends with the great grandfather on the trip (Jessica's grandpa). But maybe he is friends with grandpa Kunz (Deorr senior's dad).

Would have to go back and re-read everything.

I'm sure the friend was great grandfather's friend (the one on the trip). If Jessica, little Deorr and Deorr's dad lived with Deorr Sr. and then they would have met Deorr Sr.'s friend before I would think.

P.S. I have read every post in all 4 the threads. I finally registered so I could talk!

Edit: I see I messed the "quote" up, but don't know how to fix it. Sorry.

 

[Elainera]

Again, this makes it sound like IR was definitely at the scene and not off the site fishing or otherwise occupied. (just for clarification):

Over the weekend Reinwand’s name was widely publicized on social media, leading to Bowerman confirming the detail to EastIdahoNews.com

“Yes, he was at the scene,” Bowerman said in an email. “He’s a personal friend of grandpa’s for about five years. We are treating him no differently than the family, he has been questioned numerous times, and has been to the scene with me.”
http://www.eastidahonews.com/2015/07/sheriff-family-friend-not-a-suspect-in-deorr-kunz-case/

Not trying to :deadhorse: but it almost seems like his presence was played down in the original description of events. That just raises more questions in my mind of the original account.

I still feel that the baby wandered off into the water. But I feel there may be some important parts of the account that are missing. Perhaps from fear of appearing that neglect or lack of supervision was an issue, perhaps based on some prior experiences or not wanting to open themselves up to criticism.

bbm

Wait. He is a friend of grandpa, not great-grandpa?

He probably meant the g-grandpa who was at the camp, is my guess. But sure gets confusing.

I agree with your last two paragraphs. All we've heard so far sounds a bit like something is being left out of the media, something that did not have anything to do with Deorr's disappearance but could/would be construed as such.

 

[Lizzzard]

But if you look at harvest numbers for other units, there's one with 50 lions harvested in 2012, another with 41, multiple with 20+. The units covering and surrounding where this child disappeared have little to no lions harvested. It just doesn't appear to be a hotbed of mountain lion activity.

Like I mentioned in my recent and GINORMOUS post about lions, I would guess that this could be in part due to the presence of the active wolf pack in that area.

 

[Elainera]

I know one thing. If a child went missing on my watch (even if it was a mix-up) I would be shoulder to shoulder with the parents looking for him. I assume parents are still at/near the scene searching.

I guess LE/Parents could have ordered him home and keep a low profile. But why?

ETA: A question....do we know if *any* people other than the four adults we know about already were anywhere near the camp site?

He might be too ill.