ID - DeOrr Kunz Jr, 2, Timber Creek Campground, 10 July 2015 - #6

[neesaki]

Regarding Mountain Lions and dogs, just check out Youtube, there are several videos on this subject. One video is of a mountain lion overpowering a Doberman, :cry: I'm not posting it because it's too terrible and painful to watch for me, and it might be offensive to some. Just google it if you want to check it out, it should come right up. I personally couldn't watch it all because it's just so horrific, that poor dog. There are also news videos of areas in California, Canada, and Idaho where the Mountain lions prey on dogs in people' s back yards.

I guess what it comes down to is that Mountain lions, unlike dogs, are very predatorial, and so cunning, so stealthy, and so powerful that they will have the upper hand. Thankfully, dogs, SARS or otherwise, usually have enough intelligence and instinct to know this. Unfortunately in some situations they can't always escape them, even in their own back yards.

 

[starfire]

Everyone was in an uproar that they said they suspended the search. They did not suspend the search though.

" Authorities have not suspended the search, but they are asking that nobody go out and search for the boy as they plan to bring in dogs to help find any kind of scent."

http://www.ktvb.com/story/news/local/idaho/2015/07/14/search-deorr-kunz-lemhi-county/30162615/

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk

They asked for nobody to search due to K9s being brought in, but by then (7/15) literally hundreds of people had already been searching. Did they really not bring in any K9s until 4-5 days after he was reported missing? If so, was that a little late in the game, with chances the dogs would find anything diminished?

I remember when Kyron Horman went missing, K9 units were brought in the same day. The FBI was also involved immediately. Is it possible that the Lemhi LE waited too long on both these resources?

 

[starfire]

Regarding Mountain Lions and dogs, just check out Youtube, there are several videos on this subject. One video is of a mountain lion overpowering a Doberman, I'm not posting it because it's so painful to watch, just google if you want. I personally couldn't watch it all, had to turn it off. That poor, poor dog. :cry: Mountain lions, unlike dogs, are very predatorial, and so cunning, so stealthy, and so powerful that they will have the upper hand. Thankfully, dogs have enough intelligence and instinct to know this. Unfortunately they can't always escape them.

I can't watch as my sweet Dobie is sitting right next to me. :cry: She goes camping with us several times a year, too.

 

[neesaki]

An article about a mountain lion attack on a six year old boy who was in the company of his parents. They weren't hiking or in the wilderness area, they were walking from a restaurant to their hotel. And this was a six y/o, not a two y/o like Deorr.

http://www.statesman.com/news/news/local/mountain-lion-snatches-leander-boy-in-big-bend-chi/nRkKD/

Taking all the recommended precautions wasn't enough to keep a mountain lion from snatching a 6-year-old Leander boy from his mother's hand and clamping its jaws on his face at Big Bend National Park on Sunday night.

 

[desert-blue]

This case is so frustrating on so many levels. I would think that in the case of a missing toddler, as much information as possible would be released right away to try to help find the child alive. Details such as a precise timeline, a list of those in the camping party, a detailed accounting of what the child was doing when he was last seen, who last saw him, how long had they been there, a layout of the camping scene and so on and so forth. The fact that LE has kept secret basically every detail about this camping trip is very suspect to me. The child is still missing and it seems like LE is willing to just say he vanished without a trace. They tell us none of the adults is a suspect and abduction has been ruled out. They say wild animals aren't to blame and no drop of blood, piece of clothing, boot, or toy has been found. The dogs find no trace of him. There is no scent of him walking to the creek or the reservoir or any place else. Then, there is all the secrecy surrounding each and every adult. <modsnip>

 

[rkf]

It really bothers me when, no matter what the circumstances, the parents are blamed in the majority of cases even when there is absolutely no evidence to indicate their involvement nor any reason to even believe they WERE involved. It just seems, these days, many have a penchant to blame the parents and refuse to listen to or learn about scenarios that really DO fit the case. Having said that, I have kept an open mind as to two alternate possibilities which are wandering off and falling asleep or being injured, and drowning. Common sense has always been my strong suit and I've applied it to this case. With a mountain lion as abductor/killer, no twists or turns or manipulation is needed. This case presents itself ideally for the greatest probability that a mountain lion is the predator. No tunnel vision.

IMO, one of the main reasons that people suspect parents in the absence of evidence of an alternate explanation, is that statistically children are much more likely to be injured or killed by a family member or someone they know than to be abducted by a stranger. LE and the parents have not been very forthcoming with information about the day DeOrr disappeared. We, the public, don't even have a reliable timeline, as the number of actual facts provided in the one interview can be counted on the fingers of one hand, with a few left over. I think when parents believe their child was kidnapped, they usually do anything they can to get their child's picture and story out to the public, and keep it there, even if they have a family member or spokesperson talk to MSM for them. I can't wrap my head around LE telling the family not to talk to the media because it would impede the investigation. If the child was kidnapped, how would speaking out impede LE? If he wasn't kidnapped, how would talking to MSM impede the investigation?

I would think wandering off and drowning would be very likely in this particular case, but unless/until they find his body, that appears unlikely. Even then, I would expect one of the many SAR dogs to have found his scent, if only from camp to the creek or reservoir. I've said the mountain lion is my second favorite theory, as if there is one in the area, the lack of evidence means a wild animal attack could have happened. I don't think any other animal would be able to get in and out without being heard or seen by one of the adults. How oversized were his cowboy boots? A little, or enough that they were hard to walk in/keep on?

 

[jmcgladr]

An article about a mountain lion attack on a six year old boy who was in the company of his parents. They weren't hiking or in the wilderness area, they were walking from a restaurant to their hotel. And this was a six y/o, not a two y/o like Deorr.

http://www.statesman.com/news/news/local/mountain-lion-snatches-leander-boy-in-big-bend-chi/nRkKD/

Here's another one from my neck of the woods. Very similar story. Luckily this little boy had very fast acting parents!

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/briti...e-for-lunch-says-7-year-old-b-c-boy-1.1159466

 

[LayzeeDayzee]

Amen, amen!! I wholeheartedly agree with everything you've posted here a million times over.

This case is so frustrating on so many levels. I would think that in the case of a missing toddler, as much information as possible would be released right away to try to help find the child alive. Details such as a precise timeline, a list of those in the camping party, a detailed accounting of what the child was doing when he was last seen, who last saw him, how long had they been there, a layout of the camping scene and so on and so forth. The fact that LE has kept secret basically every detail about this camping trip is very suspect to me. The child is still missing and it seems like LE is willing to just say he vanished without a trace. They tell us none of the adults is a suspect and abduction has been ruled out. They say wild animals aren't to blame and no drop of blood, piece of clothing, boot, or toy has been found. The dogs find no trace of him. There is no scent of him walking to the creek or the reservoir or any place else. Then, there is all the secrecy surrounding each and every adult. <modsnip>

 

[rkf]

They asked for nobody to search due to K9s being brought in, but by then (7/15) literally hundreds of people had already been searching. Did they really not bring in any K9s until 4-5 days after he was reported missing? If so, was that a little late in the game, with chances the dogs would find anything diminished?

I remember when Kyron Horman went missing, K9 units were brought in the same day. The FBI was also involved immediately. Is it possible that the Lemhi LE waited too long on both these resources?

It appears search dogs were used within the first two days. I found this article dated the 11th, which says the following:

Kunz’s parent called 911 around 2:30 to report the boy had been missing for about an hour, according to the sheriff’s office.

The sheriff’s office immediately dispatched personnel to conduct a search. Officers from Lemhi County Sheriff’s Office, Salmon Police Department and other local agencies worked with Salmon Search and Rescue to look for the boy, according to the sheriff’s office.

More resources were called in as the search wore on. Search dogs, a helicopter, searchers on horseback and all terrain vehicles were looking for the boy. About 150 people were assigned to the search, and people are working day and night to find the boy, according to the sheriff’s office.

“We've used a huge amount of resources,” Smith said.

http://www.idahostatesman.com/2015/07/11/3891690_two-year-old-boy-missing-in-lemhi.html?rh=1

 

[BeeFriendly]

Everyone was in an uproar that they said they suspended the search. They did not suspend the search though.

" Authorities have not suspended the search, but they are asking that nobody go out and search for the boy as they plan to bring in dogs to help find any kind of scent."

http://www.ktvb.com/story/news/local/idaho/2015/07/14/search-deorr-kunz-lemhi-county/30162615/

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk

So, the 200 people that did show up didn't mess up the scent? Hmm.

 

[persimmon]

The impression I got was GGP is not mentally able or capable to watch Deorr. Why would they leave him with him?
Has anyone seen GGF?

Just catching up on the past day of posts so I apologize if this has been addressed. I have seen several photos of him and by my judgement he's a big sturdy looking man but definitely elderly. I would guess mid 70s. I have seen photos of him standing with family and he doesn't appear to have issues there and I saw photos of an earlier camping trip where he was seated around camp in several shots. There were several small children along in that trip including DeOrr. There were also numerous adults. GGF camper was visible in several puctures as well. I believe it was also along on this trip. It was a tow behind camper from the 70s I would guess and looked vapable of sleeping several people...especially kids. I only mention that because I thought it odd that GGP slept in the camper, IR in a tent, and JM DKS and DK in GGP Suburban.

 

[MBK]

Quick, "semi-inspired" thought o' the morning - - IR was supposed to be the FALL GUY in this lil caper. It's like "Hey, let's bring along this loser with a nice long "jacket" with us, and LE will suspect HIM!" Just an idea.

 

[MBK]

Things I'd love to know "unanswerables, per se":

How long was the family planning on staying at the campsite?

How many diapers did they have with them (for lil Deorr)?

Why was lil Deorr wearing pajama pants? Did he have them on for his so-called "nap"? How many other changes of outfits did he have? Did he have on a top other than a jacket? If not, why not?

How much food did they have with them, and what was it?

And, as others have asked, was this a last-minute trip?

If Deorr, Sr. had to call in sick to his job on Friday, when did he do so?

 

[MBK]

GGF camper was visible in several puctures as well. I believe it was also along on this trip. It was a tow behind camper from the 70s I would guess and looked vapable of sleeping several people...especially kids. I only mention that because I thought it odd that GGP slept in the camper, IR in a tent, and JM DKS and DK in GGP Suburban.

Darn tootin'! I mean, yeah, I know these aren't 1% ers, but please, "camping" by sleeping in your CAR? Shoot, might as well be sleeping in a Wal-Mart parking lot, it's more "convenient". I wonder if they had sleeping bags, blankets, etc.

 

[wondering25]

Wow, so many possibilities however unlikely. I sure hope this little guy is found soon, as everyone here does.

Taken by a mountain lion? I discounted that theory early on. But it was just explained that dogs are afraid of and won't follow the track. If this is true, this lends credence to this theory. Gone without a trace, or gone without a tracker?

Drowning in the creek or reservoir. I don't think so, as they say they have raked through there and even searched holes. No, his body didn't come to the surface within the expected amount of time...3 weeks. But it's possible, but probably unlikely, that he is caught up in some ratty logs or branches.

Abduction? I REALLY don't think so. No scent. No information about anyone else camping in the immediate area either.

After seeing IR's interview, I have a pit in my stomach wondering if drug use had anything to do with this. I find it hard to believe (my opinion of course) that the parents didn't know IR before they went camping. If I remember correctly, they went to GGP's favorite camping spot. How long has it been his favorite spot? JM and Dad Deorr seem like the outdoorsy type (camo clothing, ATV). If GGP loves camping so much, how often did he camp, and how often did JM and Big Deorr camp with him? The parents said they were at the site for the first time. Yet it seems, knowing GGPs physical and mental deficiencies, they would go with him sometimes. GGP and IR's relationship doesn't make sense to me either. GGP is about twice the age of IR. <modsnip> It's a little unusual, to me, that a guy of that age likes to hang out with a senior citizen whose health and mind are failing. And after the seeing the interview with IR, I suspect his mind was altered and that it probably often is. Wouldn't he be camping or hanging out with people his own age, reputable or not? Is he more of a caretaker of GGP? How often do IR and GGP spend time together? The whole problem with this is there is not a trace of Deorr, so I don't think neglect, even if there was any drug use among any of the 4 adults, plays a part in his disappearance. What I have thought since the beginning is that he probably was never at the campsite to begin with. Again, substance abuse? What if there was a drug deal gone wrong and they knew who had him or who has him still, using him as a pawn. I don't think it's too farfetched, nothing really is at this point.

Another big question I have is, ASIDE from family and IR, WHO PHYSICALLY SAW DEORR last and when? It is possible that Deorr was missing for a number of days, for all we know.

Sorry I'm regurgitating much of what has already said, but as so many have pointed out, there is so little to go on. Who knows what is happening behind the scenes, or if it ever will be solved.

I believe I read on SM that GGP hadnt been to that campground in 27 years...

 

[wondering25]

So, the 200 people that did show up didn't mess up the scent? Hmm.

According to posts here after 3 days they announced they were going to suspend the search then didn't and brought in the dogs.. so at least 3 days went by before the dogs came? Really? How the heck can anyone expect anything accurate after 3 days as far as a dog scent is concerned (talking bloodhound types not cadaver dog scent) Plus, as pointed out, a zillion searchers were on the scene prior to the dogs arriving. Also, there is the diaper mentioned on SM which was hanging in a bag from a tree and not removed until Sunday. that would have deorr's scent on it..that could be the scent the dogs followed..IIRC, it rained in the first couple of days.. that might also wipe out a scent..

The former forest ranger or whoever he was who commented on the case in the press but is retired and has no part in the search said one possibility was Deorr might not have been there (paraphrasing)... IMO he is speaking from his experience and some weight should be given to his comments. He is no different than the talking heads on TV who also speak from experience (Klaas, Walsh etc). JMO

 

[jmcgladr]

Darn tootin'! I mean, yeah, I know these aren't 1% ers, but please, "camping" by sleeping in your CAR? Shoot, might as well be sleeping in a Wal-Mart parking lot, it's more "convenient". I wonder if they had sleeping bags, blankets, etc.

That could have just been due to a late arrival, past Deorr's bedtime. I've slept in the back of an SUV vs setting up a tent when I arrived at a campsite late.

 

[Trident]

Darn tootin'! I mean, yeah, I know these aren't 1% ers, but please, "camping" by sleeping in your CAR? Shoot, might as well be sleeping in a Wal-Mart parking lot, it's more "convenient". I wonder if they had sleeping bags, blankets, etc.

When I went camping at Yellowstone with my son and family at Yellowstone Lake, there was a sign or we were told, bears had been seen in the area. I and my daughter-in-law opted to sleep in the mini van even though my son had a 3-room tent. He and the grandsons did sleep in the tent, but I had no intentions of being 'et by a bear. I didn't get much sleep, but I doubt I would have gotten much more listening for the sound of any snapping twig or rustle of every leaf. Thankfully no bears came through that night, but I don't find it too odd IF they did sleep in the truck.

BTW, is there a link for the info on where each and everyone was sleeping? Not doubting you, but I didn't see that. TIA.

 

[Openminded]

The grandmother posted on SM about the sleeping arrangements. I haven't seen it mentioned in MSM.

 

[wondering25]

Yes, but that's just ONE case of many! There have been so many I have lost count. Every time I do a new search more and more pop up. I have posted a lot of information about mountain lions that you probably haven't read because if you had you would know what they do and how they do it. There's cases exactly like Doerr's - exactly!

ILOKAL.. I absolutely admire your tenacity! You are convinced of a mountain lion attack ( or some 4 legged predator) and cannot be swayed! You certainly have done your homework and your research is compelling!!! IMO, this entire search was mishandled.. dogs not coming until 3 days later.. people all over the campground searching.. no mention of securing the campsite immediately, FBI called after 3 weeks..etc. LE doesnt agree with you.. but it is hard to believe what LE is saying since they are ambiguous at best. jmo