ID - DeOrr Kunz Jr, 2, Timber Creek Campground, 10 July 2015 - #6

[katydid23]

No - No - and No! (scattered remains?? Nearby?)

IF the lion walked "right up to the campsite" GGP and/or Isaac would have seen it, no?

In the few mountain lion attacks that I know about, the victim was carried up the mountain and bitten, attacked. Their remains were found. It was evident what had happened to them.


ETA:
Jaryd Atadero, 3, male October 2, 1999

Disappeared while hiking with a group of his father's friends on the Big South Trail in Poudre Canyon, west of Fort Collins, Colorado.[15] In June 2003, his clothing was discovered, 500 feet (150 m) up a cliff above the trail where he vanished, by hikers.[16] Jaryd's fragmentary human remains were found with the clothing.[17] A wildlife biologist found the damage to the clothing was consistent with mountain lion predation.[18]

 

[JadeSLeuth]

Apparently Sheriff Bowerman discussed it in a report to the county commissioners.

http://lemhiweb.com/content/search-recap

Thank you! I hadn't read this.

 

[Trident]

I have to disagree. Since we have the information that Little Deorr disappeared/vanished from a forest, that information surely needs to be used in comparing his disappearance to others. Of course, if one prefers to look in another direction and omit the circumstances in this and other very similar cases, they will certainly be drawn to a conclusion, valid or not. JMO

I believe there may be a couple or three conclusions which may be valid, but only time will tell. If no body surfaces in the reservoir any time soon, that probably can be ruled out. If no new information comes to light from LE/FBI about anyone at or near the campground, we can only ASSUME that angle can be ruled out, if only for the next long while. That leaves us with the pitfalls of the forest where so many others have gone missing, some proven to be the victims of a cougar attack.

However, at this juncture, I believe there are other valid conclusions still to be considered. Time may/or not tell the tale, but I hope it does - at least better than the way other cases went/are going where things were kept close to the vest.

:cow:

 

[Cardinal47]

Hi, I am new but have been following this since the beginning and have read all six threads. I do have a question regarding the campsite. What struck me in the video on Nancy Grace was that the area seemed to be so open except for the creek side. However, what caught my eye was the tall grass or vegetation that seems to surround the perimeter of the site. Does anyone know what kind of grass/shrub that is and how tall it actually is? It is hard to tell from the picture of the camp and I have never been out west to visit. I did see one picture of a searcher and it appeared to be up to his waist at least in the area he was at. I don't know if it was the same in the open meadow at the camp.

I could see a toddler playing hide and seek. I know my little niece will do this and the more we pretend to hunt for her, the funnier she thinks it is and will stay hidden for a while. Perhaps by the time the baby got tired of hiding he got lost in the tall grass and couldn't find his way back?

Or perhaps a predator, four legged or two legged hid in that grass for an opportunity? I know this has been discussed, but the tall grass has always bothered me the moment I saw it in the video. JMO.

I am glad you mentioned that tall grass. I too saw it and thought 'how could they find a small child there'? With that said they searched with men, dogs, horses, helicoptors and I believe drones.

I think they would have spotted something. I have always been concerned that he might not have been spotted because of the camo sweatshirt he was wearing. Would fit right into the terraine.

One thing I hope camping parents have learned is please, please dress your young children in bright colors if you take them camping.

 

[Trident]

In the few mountain lion attacks that I know about, the victim was carried up the mountain and bitten, attacked. Their remains were found. It was evident what had happened to them.


ETA:
Jaryd Atadero, 3, male October 2, 1999

Disappeared while hiking with a group of his father's friends on the Big South Trail in Poudre Canyon, west of Fort Collins, Colorado.[15] In June 2003, his clothing was discovered, 500 feet (150 m) up a cliff above the trail where he vanished, by hikers.[16] Jaryd's fragmentary human remains were found with the clothing.[17] A wildlife biologist found the damage to the clothing was consistent with mountain lion predation.[18]

BBM, in the ones you KNOW about. What about all the missing kids/adults in the parks that no one knows what happened to?

Jared's skull/clothes were found YEARS later.

 

[neesaki]

If a mountain lion walked right up to the campsite, would they see his tracks when they began searching? Woulds the scent dogs have picked up the trail? Would the cadaver dogs have found his scent nearby where they left his scattered remains?

From what I've read, search dogs avoid Mountain Lion scents, they are afraid of them.

 

[Cardinal47]

My theory at the moment is this:

All 4 campers arrived Thursday evening.

Issac and ggf never saw the baby / they thought he was sleeping since they arrived late.

Next morning mom and dad say they are going to leave in the truck and check out the area and go to the store in town. IR and ggf still don't see the baby.

They get back by 1 pm. IR and ggf don't see the baby. They think he is napping.

JM and DK go off to explore then come back and ask where DKjr is.

This starts the search and then call to 911.

In this scenario there is no confirmation of them being seen at the store. The rumor of a sighting is a ruse. The story of a stolen emt bag is a ruse.

No scent track other than the confusion with the cremains. No trace. No evidence. Not thought to be an abduction or animal attack. IR's confirmation of what happened was non committal.

This is the only thing that fits for me and is purely my speculation only.

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Honestly the more I read here and on other sites the more I wonder if he was ever there??? MOO

 

[wondering25]

Thank you! I hadn't read this.

dated 7-13 he said the search was officially suspended.. they sure didnt look for long.. he also mentioned fast rushing water which was seen in part of that NG show with Nate the reporter.. Bowerman sure doesnt sound like he thinks the baby is there and has since said he doesnt think he was abducted..
http://lemhiweb.com/content/search-recap

 

[ILOKAL]

In the few mountain lion attacks that I know about, the victim was carried up the mountain and bitten, attacked. Their remains were found. It was evident what had happened to them.


ETA:
Jaryd Atadero, 3, male October 2, 1999

Disappeared while hiking with a group of his father's friends on the Big South Trail in Poudre Canyon, west of Fort Collins, Colorado.[15] In June 2003, his clothing was discovered, 500 feet (150 m) up a cliff above the trail where he vanished, by hikers.[16] Jaryd's fragmentary human remains were found with the clothing.[17] A wildlife biologist found the damage to the clothing was consistent with mountain lion predation.[18]

Yes, but that's just ONE case of many! There have been so many I have lost count. Every time I do a new search more and more pop up. I have posted a lot of information about mountain lions that you probably haven't read because if you had you would know what they do and how they do it. There's cases exactly like Doerr's - exactly!

 

[Jules71]

Apparently Sheriff Bowerman discussed it in a report to the county commissioners.

http://lemhiweb.com/content/search-recap

Thank you! So what we don't know for sure then is if the dogs kept returning to the camp because that was their starting point and what they were trained to do if they couldn't establish a trail, or if that was where his scent was. My guess is they were given a scent item and could never find a trail. How do you all interpret that?

No scent trail because he never left camp?

No scent trail because he was never there?

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[Trident]

Yes, but that's just ONE case of many! There have been so many I have lost count. Every time I do a new search more and more pop up. I have posted a lot of information about mountain lions that you probably haven't read because if you had you would know what they do and how they do it. There's cases exactly like Doerr's - exactly!

Except in most of the other cases there isn't a GGP who shall not be named, nor a friend who would not have been named except for SM, who seems to have a police record. Nor, in other cases, was someone on the scene scattering cremains during/before the search, nor were there rumors of an EMT bag, A dirty diaper, and a store sighting. So, to me, this case has a bit more hink than some of the other disappearances, although I thoroughly concur a cougar is a very good bet.

:cow:

 

[ILOKAL]

Except in most of the other cases there isn't a GGP who shall not be named, nor a friend who would not have been named except for SM, who seems to have a police record. Nor, in other cases, was someone on the scene scattering cremains during/before the search, nor were there rumors of an EMT bag, A dirty diaper, and a store sighting. So, to me, this case has a bit more hink than some of the other disappearances, although I thoroughly concur a cougar is a very good bet.

:cow:

How do we KNOW how much hink ALL of the other cases had? I only read about them while researching for THIS case. In the brief reports of the other cases, they didn't cover hink! And fwiw, if what you've listed is the only "hink" in THIS case, I don't think LE and the FBI will find anything nefarious happened, at all!

 

[frisson]

Do you think he got lost in the forest?

I think if he got lost in the forsst the searchers would have found a trace of him

 

[Jules71]

dated 7-13 he said the search was officially suspended.. they sure didnt look for long.. he also mentioned fast rushing water which was seen in part of that NG show with Nate the reporter.. Bowerman sure doesnt sound like he thinks the baby is there and has since said he doesnt think he was abducted..
http://lemhiweb.com/content/search-recap

I don't believe the search was suspended then. I think this is when they changed it to official searchers only.

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[Trident]

How do we KNOW how much hink ALL of the other cases had? I only read about them while researching for THIS case. In the brief reports of the other cases, they didn't cover hink! And fwiw, if what you've listed is the only "hink" in THIS case, I don't think LE and the FBI will find anything nefarious happened, at all!

Well, I've studied/researched other cases such as Martin, Atadero, Laura Bradbury, and others. In fact, I have books on many of these and other cases - I buy them because I'm interested in learning more. I've read all of Paulide's "Missing 411" books, except for the last one. I'll but that in the near future, and often I knew more about the case than he did. I've read all the information you posted here, plus a lot of my own. I've been studying animal attacks for years.

The fact is, there is "hink" in almost every case I've read, but the one thing I've learned throughout the years, sleuthing/reading here, etc., is NOT to get tunnel vision. We've all seen what happens when LE clamps onto the idea of a perp and won't let go. Sometimes the results aren't pretty. Therefore, I have to keep an open mind in this case, even though I do lean toward the cougar.

Sometimes there is more than one way to skin a cat, and I mean no pun, LOL.

My opinion only

 

[wondering25]

I don't believe the search was suspended then. I think this is when they changed it to official searchers only.

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SHERIFF REPORTS TO COMMISSIONERS 7-13-15 LMS

Sheriff Lynn Bowerman told the Lemhi County Commissioners Monday, July 13, that based on the intense and extensive search conducted near Leadore for two year old Deorr Kunz Jr., it doesn’t make sense that the boy was not found.

Bowerman said the trained search dogs found nothing and kept coming back to the camp. Helicopters were used day and night to fly the area and fly over Stone Reservoir which is shallow enough to see to the bottom. He said divers explored the lake while approximately 150 volunteers on foot and on horseback conducted a thorough three mile grid-search of Timber Creek. The possibility of abduction by bear, wolf or mountain lion is not being ruled out although no trace of the boy or his apparel, which included oversized cowboy boots, was found.

The small boy disappeared Friday, July 10, from the Timber Creek Campground at Stone Reservoir. Bowerman said Timber Creek terrain is steep and rugged and is a mix of sagebrush and timber. He said given the proven expertise of the dogs the boy should have been found the first day.

Commissioner Chairman Rick Snyder described the area where the family was camped as being at the lake’s outlet which is very steep with very fast moving water flowing through brush and trees and limbs, all of which were pulled apart by searchers. Bowerman said people in wet suits were in the creek searching every hole.

The search has been officially suspended. The sheriff said investigators from Bonneville and Bingham counties have offered assistance in further follow-up investigations into any possible criminal histories of those involved.

http://lemhiweb.com/content/search-recap

 

[Mickshawn]

~~or....

No scent trail because he was picked up at camp and carried?

Didn't one of the tracker people talk about dogs who "air scent"??

Thank you! So what we don't know for sure then is if the dogs kept returning to the camp because that was their starting point and what they were trained to do if they couldn't establish a trail, or if that was where his scent was. My guess is they were given a scent item and could never find a trail. How do you all interpret that?

No scent trail because he never left camp?

No scent trail because he was never there?

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[desert-blue]

If the child was NEVER at the campsite then GGP and IR would have to lie to LE and say that he was there, because they were asked. But, LE continued to search. If either one of them said "I never saw him at all" this whole thing would have been conducted differently. Although I can't imagine it to be true, GGP might lie and take the position of being the one who last saw the baby, there is absolutely no reason for IR to lie about seeing the baby there - he didn't know the parents at all.

The dogs put the baby at the campsite and no where else. They only went to the reservoir because the smell of the cremains in the air drew them there. They didn't follow DeOrr's track/scent there.

He was taken from the campsite, carried away or in a vehicle. It is the ONLY explanation.

We don't know that they didn't know each other for sure, do we? TBC made a comment on FB to that effect, but other than that, IR has been referred to frequently as a family friend. Is it confirmed that they hadn't met before?

 

[Jules71]

If the child was NEVER at the campsite then GGP and IR would have to lie to LE and say that he was there, because they were asked. But, LE continued to search. If either one of them said "I never saw him at all" this whole thing would have been conducted differently. Although I can't imagine it to be true, GGP might lie and take the position of being the one who last saw the baby, there is absolutely no reason for IR to lie about seeing the baby there - he didn't know the parents at all.

The dogs put the baby at the campsite and no where else. They only went to the reservoir because the smell of the cremains in the air drew them there. They didn't follow DeOrr's track/scent there.

He was taken from the campsite, carried away or in a vehicle. It is the ONLY explanation.

They wouldn't have to lie if they thought he was there and were mistaken. If they said they "saw" little DeOrr there then that could be a lie, but we haven't heard either of them say they saw him and we haven't read any quotes directly from them saying they saw him. We've heard DSr say ggf said "I thought he went up to you" and we've read TBC in msm say her dad was standing there watching him one minute and then he turned and when he turned back he just disappeared (paraphrasing). And we've heard IR say um hmm when asked if xyz went down. But nothing concrete that says ggf or IR saw him.

If he was taken from the campsite, carried away, or in a vehicle, I think the dogs would have trailed his scent.

Just my opinion.

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[Jules71]

SHERIFF REPORTS TO COMMISSIONERS 7-13-15 LMS

Sheriff Lynn Bowerman told the Lemhi County Commissioners Monday, July 13, that based on the intense and extensive search conducted near Leadore for two year old Deorr Kunz Jr., it doesn’t make sense that the boy was not found.

Bowerman said the trained search dogs found nothing and kept coming back to the camp. Helicopters were used day and night to fly the area and fly over Stone Reservoir which is shallow enough to see to the bottom. He said divers explored the lake while approximately 150 volunteers on foot and on horseback conducted a thorough three mile grid-search of Timber Creek. The possibility of abduction by bear, wolf or mountain lion is not being ruled out although no trace of the boy or his apparel, which included oversized cowboy boots, was found.

The small boy disappeared Friday, July 10, from the Timber Creek Campground at Stone Reservoir. Bowerman said Timber Creek terrain is steep and rugged and is a mix of sagebrush and timber. He said given the proven expertise of the dogs the boy should have been found the first day.

Commissioner Chairman Rick Snyder described the area where the family was camped as being at the lake’s outlet which is very steep with very fast moving water flowing through brush and trees and limbs, all of which were pulled apart by searchers. Bowerman said people in wet suits were in the creek searching every hole.

The search has been officially suspended. The sheriff said investigators from Bonneville and Bingham counties have offered assistance in further follow-up investigations into any possible criminal histories of those involved.

http://lemhiweb.com/content/search-recap

Everyone was in an uproar that they said they suspended the search. They did not suspend the search though.

" Authorities have not suspended the search, but they are asking that nobody go out and search for the boy as they plan to bring in dogs to help find any kind of scent."

http://www.ktvb.com/story/news/local/idaho/2015/07/14/search-deorr-kunz-lemhi-county/30162615/

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