ID - DeOrr Kunz Jr, 2, Timber Creek Campground, 10 July 2015 - #7

[Wendy101]

Sometimes I wonder .. Even though someone is being paid to be a PI if their natural parental (human) instinct overrides the cash.. Maybe this PI is dropping lil "hints" on purpose.. Meanwhile collecting the cash

 

[dek]

I totally agree.

I dont want to have to be skeptical of the PI and the Sheriff but having any type of bias is just not good when dealing with serious cases like this.


When the alleged rumor of the Sheriff having some sort of tie to the family surfaced I just could not believe it. What are the odds that would even happen? I know it is a small town but they were not from that area so is that just a terrible coincidence?

When the sheriff was doing the investigating he never gave me a feeling he had investigated all the things that needed to be investigated. And he made one comment about riding up to the campground with the friend. Why would he ride up there together in same vehicle with him?

Things are just so bizarre to me about this whole case. I hope the FBI has more luck than the Sheriff did.

I believe it's this man (Chief deputy Penner) who may have family ties and not the Sheriff himself.

LEADORE, Idaho -- Lemhi County Chief Deputy Steve Penner asked people not to speculate about the parents of a 2-year-old boy who went missing during a fishing trip six days ago."We've interviewed the family, and the information they've provided us - my office, myself - we're good with that," he said. "And I know there's a lot of innuendo out on social media and a lot of stuff going out there and it would be nice if it would stop and let them have a little peace. They're solid."

http://www.ktvb.com/story/news/local/idaho/2015/07/16/deorr-kunz-missing-family/30239047/

I could be wrong though..... Still looking for a connection.

 

[Jules71]

Thanks to those that linked the full interview. I didn't know about it!

There is so much to talk about from this interview but this is WOW IMO.

EIN: ..the GF, the friend, and um, thusfar, no suspects have been named. In the majority of cases is it, of abductions, is it normally somebody that knows the child? Or is it a stranger?

PI: Normally, it could be a, a, friend of a friend, of the family. Like normally break-ins, house burglaries, if somebody has been there before, and then but, is there friends there? With uh, with DEORR'S mom and dad, (clear throat) course they're suspect, in fact maybe they had a, there was an accident, and they decided to cover the accident up, because they couldn't explain the accident, so let's just bury the body and say he's missing, we have no idea...that, that investigation was a zero, that uh, there's no probability of that, so they want to do the people they have in hand first investigate because sometimes there are sinister things that occur.

"With uh, with DEORR'S mom and dad, (clear throat) course they're suspect, in fact maybe they had a, there was an accident, and they decided to cover the accident up, because they couldn't explain the accident, so let's just bury the body and say he's missing, we have no idea...that, that investigation was a zero, that uh, there's no probability of that, so they want to do the people they have in hand first investigate because sometimes there are sinister things that occur."

So he's speaking in the context of how LE looks at the family first. Why do you all suppose he says we have no idea if that investigation was a zero/no probability? Is he inferring that LE might be stuck on this theory?

Also I thought I read that the PI has been working with the family for awhile - but that he just heard about the creepy guy starring at Jr. It left me with the impression that after a significant length of time, he just learned of it. Can anyone clear that up?

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[Jules71]

Mr Vilt (about 2:30):

"He loved his son, that was his son, that was his blood, that was his heart, that was his life"

Am I reading too much into all the past tense here? I find it troubling.

bbm - I cringed when I heard this too. That is really more than just a simple one time use of past tense.

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[Hatfield]

I believe it's this man (Chief deputy Penner) who may have family ties and not the Sheriff himself.

LEADORE, Idaho -- Lemhi County Chief Deputy Steve Penner asked people not to speculate about the parents of a 2-year-old boy who went missing during a fishing trip six days ago."We've interviewed the family, and the information they've provided us - my office, myself - we're good with that," he said. "And I know there's a lot of innuendo out on social media and a lot of stuff going out there and it would be nice if it would stop and let them have a little peace. They're solid."

http://www.ktvb.com/story/news/local/idaho/2015/07/16/deorr-kunz-missing-family/30239047/

I could be wrong though..... Still looking for a connection.

I can barely remember the connection but it was classified as a rumor because i think it was just from the comments section on a news article. So I dont think it is anything that can be confirmed.

Something about someone working in the same office years ago or something along those lines.

 

[rkf]

Do you have children? Most are "picky" about what they prefer to consume. Have you ever fed your child their first jar of baby food? I have... if they didn't like it there was a squishy face and a bunch of no no head shakes. Some parents think the right thing to do is force their children to like it and be grateful. Tiny learning humans have minds of their own and they are all like snowflakes. Just because you prefer a certain preference does not mean you should force them to like what you like. and you have never been the parent of a two year old have you... They stay two forever and a day. Or at least that is what it feels like. I was not the type of parent to raise a drone. In kindergarten my youngest brought home a "what am I thankful for on Thanksgiving paper" He said he was thankful for Mom Dad and Toast. I was horrified because some breaking news had stated a parent was being investigated for neglect for only feeding their child bread. He would only eat toast for many years. Not because that is all I had to provide, but it was all he wanted. I even spoke with my family MD and others about it. I was told as long as he was consuming something all was good. He moved on to only wanting cheeseburgers and I would drive 120 miles away from home just to make sure he ate something. One of my other children loved Broccoli and other vegetables so much I made sure it was available at every meal. The bottom line is this... every case is like a snowflake. No two are the same just like freethinking people. You cant just jump to conclusions because it is something that happened before. <modsnip>

Wow. I'm not sure you meant to respond to my post. My point was that if forced to choose between baked French fries and no French fries, most two year-olds I have known would choose baked, with lots of ketchup. I was responding to a previous post that noted there didn't appear to be a deep fryer at the Stage Stop. I have three children. I made all their baby food from scratch. I don't understand the vitriol in your post.

 

[Jules71]

You would think not, but if you didnt go out with the intention on kidnapping a kid, and your out of gas and this is the only gas station, you just might. And the candy bar might be a way to get the kid to quit crying. Just saying its possible.

This is a good point. The filthy bawling child could have been in the black truck and the gentleman could have been getting gas and bought a candy bar when he went in to pay.

We also need to remember we have heard nothing nor read nothing official about the store sighting. It was mentioned in the parents interview as a rumor going around. Afaik no one has seen or heard that rumor other than the parents mentioning it. It could have been completely bogus.

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[pepelepolecat]

Is THAT what their PI said BBM ??? I am in shock.

Yes. He was speaking hypothetically, but yes.

 

[Hatfield]

This is a good point. The filthy bawling child could have been in the black truck and the gentleman could have been getting gas and bought a candy bar when he went in to pay.

We also need to remember we have heard nothing nor read nothing official about the store sighting. It was mentioned in the parents interview as a rumor going around. Afaik no one has seen or heard that rumor other than the parents mentioning it. It could have been completely bogus.

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I do recall the main newspaper was saying they tried to get an inteview with the clerk and she refused an interview. So I do think some of the story about her seeing something is credible.

 

[rkf]

Thanks for pointing out the discrepancies. I agree these are really good questions.

There is so much confusion with this case on some of the simplest things that should not be confusing IMO.

French Fries VS Candy

Day and Time of Arrival

I keep going back to the main thing I saw in its entirety which is the main interview. For as long as that interview lasted, there was very little substance or things that could help understand exactly what happened.

It was all way too generic and so much of the interview was not helpful. We needed the FACTS. And there was very little of that. Like exactly who arrived and when. How many vehicles arrived and left and dates and estimated times. More description of campsite layout. Was there tents setup. Was there a fire going.

The whole interview was so long and we didnt hear nearly enough that could help understand what happened.

And now with this PI interview I am really getting confused because some of this seems to not match.

Why are things so confusing when it doesnt need to be.

I commend the PI for trying to help. It would be helpful if he addressed why certain things dont seem to match the original interview.

This does not bode well for the boy IMO. I am glad the FBI has the case. I hope they have success.

ITA. I wish everyone here could read up on statement analysis (NOT reverse speech which is complete and total bunk IMO) There is an excellent book called I Know You're Lying by Mark McClish. I read it on my kindle. I tend to "interpret" for people when they speak, meaning in my head I say "when they said x, they meant y". The point of statement analysis is to not interpret, but just listen/read what the other person is saying/said. There are other aspects such as "pace" which I felt in my gut when watching the original interview, but didn't have words to explain. DK reminded me of when one of my kids doesn't want to tell me what really happened, so they spend a lot of time on details and lead up, putting off the inevitable for as long as possible. Statement analysis can help determine if someone is being deceptive (not necessarily lying - often times leaving something out) and what areas are "sensitive" to the speaker.

Intentional or accidental, every interview so far has been a masterful demonstration of talking without saying anything. That leaves each of us to "interpret" what was said in the most reasonable manner. It also leads people to see things that support any outstanding theories we may have. The absence of information is very telling to me. It doesn't mean they did something to DeOrr, but it appears that they are not being entirely open about what happened. That can be because of guilt that their child went missing and they feel responsible. It could be because they were doing something they don't want anyone to know about during the time DeOrr went missing. We really have no idea, because they haven't said anything that would help us understand much of anything about their trip, including basic details that ordinarily wouldn't be sensitive - time of arrival, who was on the trip, when/why they went to the store, etc.

A really good example of jumping to conclusions/interpreting (reasonably so, IMO) is buying candy for DeOrr at the store. DK never said they bought him candy in the interview. But because of JM's statement before about the clerk seeing a man buying a child matching DeOrr's description candy, and DK jumping in to say that the time was wrong, we "hear" that as the rest is correct, just not the time. Also, a family member posted on a MSM's FB page that they bought candy for DeOrr and ggp. That all colors our perception and our brains make natural connections. BUT unless DK says he bought candy for DeOrr, we can't know that is true.

Sorry to ramble, but I'm pretty fired up about how much information we can glean by not finishing other peoples' thoughts for them.

 

[rkf]

Didn't GGF say he was playing in the DIRT?
Im so very confused!

GGF hasn't said anything.

 

[rkf]

In some new story.. it may have people magazine.. it was said Deorr was playing in the dirt near the grandfather on Friday then disappeared. SO, The bawling dirty baby on Friday at 6pm could have been the perp.. What DOESN'T compute is that the clerk has not mentioned seeing this family in his store at any time.

Yes! AND if DeOrr was seen 4 hours after he went missing, instead of jumping at the possibility that the clerk saw their baby with a kidnapper, they completely discounted the sighting, insisting the clerk saw them six hours earlier. THAT is the part I find most discombobulating.

 

[Jules71]

ITA. I wish everyone here could read up on statement analysis (NOT reverse speech which is complete and total bunk IMO) There is an excellent book called I Know You're Lying by Mark McClish. I read it on my kindle. I tend to "interpret" for people when they speak, meaning in my head I say "when they said x, they meant y". The point of statement analysis is to not interpret, but just listen/read what the other person is saying/said. There are other aspects such as "pace" which I felt in my gut when watching the original interview, but didn't have words to explain. DK reminded me of when one of my kids doesn't want to tell me what really happened, so they spend a lot of time on details and lead up, putting off the inevitable for as long as possible. Statement analysis can help determine if someone is being deceptive (not necessarily lying - often times leaving something out) and what areas are "sensitive" to the speaker.

Intentional or accidental, every interview so far has been a masterful demonstration of talking without saying anything. That leaves each of us to "interpret" what was said in the most reasonable manner. It also leads people to see things that support any outstanding theories we may have. The absence of information is very telling to me. It doesn't mean they did something to DeOrr, but it appears that they are not being entirely open about what happened. That can be because of guilt that their child went missing and they feel responsible. It could be because they were doing something they don't want anyone to know about during the time DeOrr went missing. We really have no idea, because they haven't said anything that would help us understand much of anything about their trip, including basic details that ordinarily wouldn't be sensitive - time of arrival, who was on the trip, when/why they went to the store, etc.

A really good example of jumping to conclusions/interpreting (reasonably so, IMO) is buying candy for DeOrr at the store. DK never said they bought him candy in the interview. But because of JM's statement before about the clerk seeing a man buying a child matching DeOrr's description candy, and DK jumping in to say that the time was wrong, we "hear" that as the rest is correct, just not the time. Also, a family member posted on a MSM's FB page that they bought candy for DeOrr and ggp. That all colors our perception and our brains make natural connections. BUT unless DK says he bought candy for DeOrr, we can't know that is true.

Sorry to ramble, but I'm pretty fired up about how much information we can glean by not finishing other peoples' thoughts for them.

Excellent post! I think you mentioned this book previously? I looked it up at the time, but now I am definitely going to get it. It's fascinating to me.

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[desert-blue]

GGF hasn't said anything.

Of all the things we haven't been told, the one thing I would love to hear is great-grandpa's account.

 

[rkf]

Also, another question. Do PI's have access to evidence in a case like this? My guess would be no right? Can someone explain private investigators to us that know nothing about them? Their roles, rights, responsibilities, certification processes etc. Also, I wish they would bring in TES to go over the area throughly. It wouldn't rule out the little boy still being there, but at least it would show it as less likely or sadly, they may find something.

In Idaho there are not PI licenses and no requirements to call oneself a PI, but PIs are supposed to get a business license. There are a number of Private Investigator professional associations that do have minimum standards for membership. It's my understanding that PIs who are former LE often have good relationships with current LE. This particular PI hasn't been in LE for 25 years and there may be other reasons the sheriff's office doesn't feel comfortable sharing information with him. I don't understand the third "tip line". If Lemhi can't handle the volume of calls with two phone lines, how is one person handling one line going to be better? I very much hope this is a coordinated effort with LE, not a side venture.

 

[La Louve]

I do recall the main newspaper was saying they tried to get an inteview with the clerk and she refused an interview. So I do think some of the story about her seeing something is credible.

The clerk refusing an interview with the paper could also be interpreted to mean that her supposed sighting was not credible, or after being shown more photos of DeOrr Jr. she realized it was not the same boy, and she didn't want to perpetuate the error, or she was just plain embarrassed.

 

[StacyMarie83]

Do you have children? Most are "picky" about what they prefer to consume. Have you ever fed your child their first jar of baby food? I have... if they didn't like it there was a squishy face and a bunch of no no head shakes. Some parents think the right thing to do is force their children to like it and be grateful. Tiny learning humans have minds of their own and they are all like snowflakes. Just because you prefer a certain preference does not mean you should force them to like what you like. and you have never been the parent of a two year old have you... They stay two forever and a day. Or at least that is what it feels like. I was not the type of parent to raise a drone. In kindergarten my youngest brought home a "what am I thankful for on Thanksgiving paper" He said he was thankful for Mom Dad and Toast. I was horrified because some breaking news had stated a parent was being investigated for neglect for only feeding their child bread. He would only eat toast for many years. Not because that is all I had to provide, but it was all he wanted. I even spoke with my family MD and others about it. I was told as long as he was consuming something all was good. He moved on to only wanting cheeseburgers and I would drive 120 miles away from home justto make sure he ate something. One of my other children loved Broccoli and other vegetables so much I made sure it was available at every meal. The bottom line is this... every case is like a snowflake. No two are the same just like freethinking people. You cant just jump to conclusions because it is something that happened before. <modsnip>

if they're picky about baked or fried french fries --- that's on the parent IMO. That is being spoiled. I DO have a child who was once a 2 year old picky eater--- it is not that hard to get them not to be picky. She was picky and it doesn't involve force feeding to help them widen their palate. Here's some pears, more pears, whoops a bite of carrot, now some more pears lol Eventually, she grew a taste for carrots and is now her favorite vegetable. I was a spoiled eater by my mom, and now as a 32 year old I don't eat healthy b/c I don't like anything healthy. Being a healthy eater doesn't make my jim croce loving, lego building 8 year old a drone --- it's makes her healthy -- which means no flu, ear infections, stomach aches, body aches, cramps, etc. Healthy choices do make a difference. This girl in my daughters class only eats french fries dipped in ice cream from mcdonalds ... she's passed out 3 times in class (falling out of her chair and banging her head once) ... why? malnutrition. Just because she's getting full doesn't mean she's healthy, but the law says it doesn't matter what you feed your child --- as long as they are eating enough its okay. I'm not trying to be snarky, I just felt slightly offended by your post lol Probably b/c of the way my mom let me only eat whatever I wanted and now that I'm older I wish she would have made me try different things. She spoiled me b/c she was forced to eat dinner or nothing at all. She had 5 other siblings and my grandma wasn't going to make 6 different dinners to please every kid on a budget. Understandable of course

I do agree that every case (and child) is like a snowflake --- but if you look at snowflakes from far away they all look the same, just like cases --- categorically, they have similarities IMO

Can't believe I'm discussing eating habits on WS ... that's when you know we need something and have nothing to discuss. :crazy:

I just hope with all my heart that deorr is alive, I know it's wishful thinking - I can't quit thinking about this little boy. MSM needs to pick up the stories without amber alerts, but they tend not to. IMO the stories without amber alerts need a bit more attention because of the lack of information.

 

[bluesneakers]

The clerk refusing a interview with the paper could also be interpreted to mean that her supposed sighting was not credible, or after being shown more photos of DeOrr Jr. she realized it was not the same boy, and she didn't want to perpetuate the error, or she was just plain embarrassed.

Or perhaps "No thank you. I've seen what happens to people who give interviews on TV."

 

[Jamaica Me Crazy]

N

ITA. I wish everyone here could read up on statement analysis (NOT reverse speech which is complete and total bunk IMO) There is an excellent book called I Know You're Lying by Mark McClish. I read it on my kindle. I tend to "interpret" for people when they speak, meaning in my head I say "when they said x, they meant y". The point of statement analysis is to not interpret, but just listen/read what the other person is saying/said. There are other aspects such as "pace" which I felt in my gut when watching the original interview, but didn't have words to explain. DK reminded me of when one of my kids doesn't want to tell me what really happened, so they spend a lot of time on details and lead up, putting off the inevitable for as long as possible. Statement analysis can help determine if someone is being deceptive (not necessarily lying - often times leaving something out) and what areas are "sensitive" to the speaker.

Intentional or accidental, every interview so far has been a masterful demonstration of talking without saying anything. That leaves each of us to "interpret" what was said in the most reasonable manner. It also leads people to see things that support any outstanding theories we may have. The absence of information is very telling to me. It doesn't mean they did something to DeOrr, but it appears that they are not being entirely open about what happened. That can be because of guilt that their child went missing and they feel responsible. It could be because they were doing something they don't want anyone to know about during the time DeOrr went missing. We really have no idea, because they haven't said anything that would help us understand much of anything about their trip, including basic details that ordinarily wouldn't be sensitive - time of arrival, who was on the trip, when/why they went to the store, etc.

A really good example of jumping to conclusions/interpreting (reasonably so, IMO) is buying candy for DeOrr at the store. DK never said they bought him candy in the interview. But because of JM's statement before about the clerk seeing a man buying a child matching DeOrr's description candy, and DK jumping in to say that the time was wrong, we "hear" that as the rest is correct, just not the time. Also, a family member posted on a MSM's FB page that they bought candy for DeOrr and ggp. That all colors our perception and our brains make natural connections. BUT unless DK says he bought candy for DeOrr, we can't know that is true.

Sorry to ramble, but I'm pretty fired up about how much information we can glean by not finishing other peoples' thoughts for them.

McClish's book is a must read!

 

[wondering25]

ITA. I wish everyone here could read up on statement analysis (NOT reverse speech which is complete and total bunk IMO) There is an excellent book called I Know You're Lying by Mark McClish. I read it on my kindle. I tend to "interpret" for people when they speak, meaning in my head I say "when they said x, they meant y". The point of statement analysis is to not interpret, but just listen/read what the other person is saying/said. There are other aspects such as "pace" which I felt in my gut when watching the original interview, but didn't have words to explain. DK reminded me of when one of my kids doesn't want to tell me what really happened, so they spend a lot of time on details and lead up, putting off the inevitable for as long as possible. Statement analysis can help determine if someone is being deceptive (not necessarily lying - often times leaving something out) and what areas are "sensitive" to the speaker.

Intentional or accidental, every interview so far has been a masterful demonstration of talking without saying anything. That leaves each of us to "interpret" what was said in the most reasonable manner. It also leads people to see things that support any outstanding theories we may have. The absence of information is very telling to me. It doesn't mean they did something to DeOrr, but it appears that they are not being entirely open about what happened. That can be because of guilt that their child went missing and they feel responsible. It could be because they were doing something they don't want anyone to know about during the time DeOrr went missing. We really have no idea, because they haven't said anything that would help us understand much of anything about their trip, including basic details that ordinarily wouldn't be sensitive - time of arrival, who was on the trip, when/why they went to the store, etc.

A really good example of jumping to conclusions/interpreting (reasonably so, IMO) is buying candy for DeOrr at the store. DK never said they bought him candy in the interview. But because of JM's statement before about the clerk seeing a man buying a child matching DeOrr's description candy, and DK jumping in to say that the time was wrong, we "hear" that as the rest is correct, just not the time. Also, a family member posted on a MSM's FB page that they bought candy for DeOrr and ggp. That all colors our perception and our brains make natural connections. BUT unless DK says he bought candy for DeOrr, we can't know that is true.

Sorry to ramble, but I'm pretty fired up about how much information we can glean by not finishing other peoples' thoughts for them.

Big huge hole in this case . Double talk, vague, aversion to SM yet the extended family has been talking. No big TV blitz...yet they think the baby was abducted. LE does not support that 100% . LE has said the parents have cooperated..No mention that anyone has lawyered up ..but this control of the media and lack of info is pretty much counter productive to finding a missing child. Everything, even most of what the parents have said is second hand.. the filthy bawling boy was said by mom who heard it from (probably LE) who spoke to the clerk in the store. So, as far as I am concerned anything anyone in the family, extended family or P.I says is just information.. up to us to weigh and measure. The police are faced with the same task.. they gather information.. get tips from strangers and people who are close to the family etc... follow up.. they just don't rely on the parents for info..

So calling things "rumors" really isn't fair . Everything is information. In Italian, the word RUMORE means NOISE. LE listens to the "noise" surrounding a case and finds the source. Keeping your ear to the ground is an excellent way to gather info. Hey, a tip line is just that..rumor..a possible sighting.. something you might know about the family, whatever.

It seems the principals want to control the noise.. but the noise may be what solves this case. JMO