ID - DeOrr Kunz Jr, 2, Timber Creek Campground, 10 July 2015 - #7

[starfire]

Exactly - it seems like LE would have just said it was a false sighting by now. I think there is something to it. And I think it has something to do with the timeline. The parents wanted so badly for the sighting to be around noon, instead of 6:00. The idea of it being 4 hours after he was missing should have been alarming to them. Instead, they just insisted the clerk's time was off by 6 hours. It doesn't make sense, but then again, very little does....

Deorr had been missing for over 3 hours by 6pm, and by then Leadore had many LE and SAR folks passing through, maybe some even needing to stop for gas. It seems the likelihood would be high that word of a missing child in the area would have made it to the only store and gas station in that dinky town of 100 by then -- and the clerk would be able to clearly remember if her sighting was after she heard of a child missing at the campground or before. But I guess not.

 

[wondering25]

Why is the fact that the guy with the filthy bawling kid was driving a black truck be "a problem" per daddy Deorr? Do you have any idea how many people drive black trucks? I have one sitting in my garage (hubby's fishing vehicle). He was so quick to say that was a problem for him..why discount any of this.. man with black truck and filthy baby go in a store.. why so defensive about a black truck?? I realize it doesn't fit his timeline.. so he should have just dismissed the sighting.. why say a man in a black truck is a problem? JMO

 

[frisson]

Originally Posted by kammiemc

Put it this way, I don't think he is forwarding any tips to the FBI that implicate his clients. And, regardless of where the facts point, there is zero chance that he is going back to his clients with the conclusion that he believes they are involved. I bet a large part of what he is there to do is to exonerate the family in the media and public eye.

Agreed. When I heard the story of the strange man peering at Deorr and how J felt
uncomfortable, I'm sad to say, my suspicions now lean towards "was Deorr even at the campsite", PI sounds like a spin Dr.

THIS! and this!

Agreed. Also, the PI saying (quoted upthread), "I stepped in to help" does not (imo) mean that he is not being paid.

Additionally, there are some things that ring weird to me. If it were one odd thing or two I'd say, "yeah that happens;" but when several odd things turn up I get hinky. The first one for me was the "four minute" window. Four minutes? How does someone know that? Also, the comment about the baby being, "with great grandpa by the fire" just weirded me out. Why say, "by the fire". I don't get it. Just thoughts in my head. Also, is it not super important to get it right in the media and elsewhere about the correct and actual time and day they arrived? Seriously?

 

[SuperTmo]

ITA. I wish everyone here could read up on statement analysis (NOT reverse speech which is complete and total bunk IMO) There is an excellent book called I Know You're Lying by Mark McClish. I read it on my kindle. I tend to "interpret" for people when they speak, meaning in my head I say "when they said x, they meant y". The point of statement analysis is to not interpret, but just listen/read what the other person is saying/said. There are other aspects such as "pace" which I felt in my gut when watching the original interview, but didn't have words to explain. DK reminded me of when one of my kids doesn't want to tell me what really happened, so they spend a lot of time on details and lead up, putting off the inevitable for as long as possible. Statement analysis can help determine if someone is being deceptive (not necessarily lying - often times leaving something out) and what areas are "sensitive" to the speaker.

Intentional or accidental, every interview so far has been a masterful demonstration of talking without saying anything. That leaves each of us to "interpret" what was said in the most reasonable manner. It also leads people to see things that support any outstanding theories we may have. The absence of information is very telling to me. It doesn't mean they did something to DeOrr, but it appears that they are not being entirely open about what happened. That can be because of guilt that their child went missing and they feel responsible. It could be because they were doing something they don't want anyone to know about during the time DeOrr went missing. We really have no idea, because they haven't said anything that would help us understand much of anything about their trip, including basic details that ordinarily wouldn't be sensitive - time of arrival, who was on the trip, when/why they went to the store, etc.

A really good example of jumping to conclusions/interpreting (reasonably so, IMO) is buying candy for DeOrr at the store. DK never said they bought him candy in the interview. But because of JM's statement before about the clerk seeing a man buying a child matching DeOrr's description candy, and DK jumping in to say that the time was wrong, we "hear" that as the rest is correct, just not the time. Also, a family member posted on a MSM's FB page that they bought candy for DeOrr and ggp. That all colors our perception and our brains make natural connections. BUT unless DK says he bought candy for DeOrr, we can't know that is true.

Sorry to ramble, but I'm pretty fired up about how much information we can glean by not finishing other peoples' thoughts for them.

I really enjoy statement analysis. Yes, you are right... we cannot finish peoples' thoughts! If they don't say it, we can't say it for them. One thing that I was bothered by was all of the self-censoring that the father was doing during that interview. There are a lot of questionable things in that interview, IMO.

 

[Jules71]

Why is the fact that the guy with the filthy bawling kid was driving a black truck be "a problem" per daddy Deorr? Do you have any idea how many people drive black trucks? I have one sitting in my garage (hubby's fishing vehicle). He was so quick to say that was a problem for him..why discount any of this.. man with black truck and filthy baby go in a store.. why so defensive about a black truck?? I realize it doesn't fit his timeline.. so he should have just dismissed the sighting.. why say a man in a black truck is a problem? JMO

Maybe the black truck was a problem to him because in the context of the store rumor he was being accused of something. Like we know you were there with little Deorr at 6 pm and he was filthy and bawling and you bought him candy. --No the black truck wouldn't be a problem here.

Maybe the rumor was we know he was abducted, we saw him and a man with a black truck at 6 pm. His response was we were there earlier and the problem is I drive a black truck. But in this case, it would be a problem that someone might confuse the other black truck for being him but then that would open up a valid lead.

IMO his statement was defensive as in trying to say it couldn't have been him even though he does drive a black truck. So that's a problem for him. He was denying something he was being accused of rather than discussing the possibility of someone else being there with his son, IMO. If it hadn't already been confirmed that it wasn't little Deorr there - then we have a problem.

No matter how I work it in my mind, I still don't get it.

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[pepelepolecat]

LE question: When would they have collected that? Right away? A few days into the search? Weeks later? All along? If you think you're going to find the baby any minute, would there be reason to collect physical evidence? I'm wondering at what point, LE decided it was necessary. I'm sure there was so much going on behind the scenes that we don't know, so I'm just curious if anyone knows about this.

I'd guess if they found anything at all that hinted at a crime scene of any kind, they'd have collected it. They may have also collected random detritus that may or may not have been important (but that still could have had connection to a crime -- cigarette butts that couldn't be explained, something like that).

And for some reason, it bothers me to think that they'd have taken his toy and blanket. If this was my child and I had to surrender his security objects to the police, I think that'd be the final straw that broke me.

 

[pepelepolecat]

Well of course kids can legitimately not like something or suffer from ARFID (not common). But there are over 800 vegetables and thousands of fruits to choose from - so the chance of them not liking, literally, thousands of fruits and vegetables is a little far fetched. IMO It's easier to feed them french fries rather than trying a million different things. Definitely far OT. Just something I felt I needed to respond to

The RSO owning a food shop when food was early mentioned (before the family, most likely, knew there was an RSO owner) is very worrisome to me. So is the RSO with the park ranger station address. A perfect opportunity, especially if there was not many people there at that time.

I just have to interject ... LOTS of kids on the autism spectrum have food aversions, which cause them to be extremely picky eaters. I wouldn't even begin to presume to judge someone's parenting or spoiling based on their child's eating habits.

At any rate, maybe DeOrr was chowing on fries and candy because it was a campout and good nutrition does tend to go by the wayside when everyone is eating weenies roasted over an open fire and burnt marshmallow s'mores.

 

[Mickshawn]

Why is the fact that the guy with the filthy bawling kid was driving a black truck be "a problem" per daddy Deorr? Do you have any idea how many people drive black trucks? I have one sitting in my garage (hubby's fishing vehicle). He was so quick to say that was a problem for him..why discount any of this.. man with black truck and filthy baby go in a store.. why so defensive about a black truck?? I realize it doesn't fit his timeline.. so he should have just dismissed the sighting.. why say a man in a black truck is a problem? JMO

I've always wondered, too....What's the problem?

 

[Jules71]

Deorr had been missing for over 3 hours by 6pm, and by then Leadore had many LE and SAR folks passing through, maybe some even needing to stop for gas. It seems the likelihood would be high that word of a missing child in the area would have made it to the only store and gas station in that dinky town of 100 by then -- and the clerk would be able to clearly remember if her sighting was after she heard of a child missing at the campground or before. But I guess not.

This is a great point. Imagine you are working at the Stage Stop on Friday and 150+ people head up to the campground (LE, SAR, volunteers, family, etc.). I bet you'd know something is up. I'm sure they would have heard about Deorr missing. So if the call to 911 was at 2:28, by 5 pm for sure that area would be buzzing. To claim someone was in the store around 6 pm matching little Deorr's description on that day would stand out. Very odd.

Again was this even a real rumor?

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[katydid23]

Does anyone else think if all of us websleuthers went out to the campground for a few hours we could find him if he is indeed there? I just feel like he is either nearby and/or in the creek. He is TWO.

Something isn't right here. They're either not looking hard enough, he isn't there, or he was never there. IMO.

NO. It is very hard to find a small child in the vast wilderness.

We had a log cabin in the Lassen National Forest area. We went every summer when I was growing up. Our cabin was 1000 feet from wilderness area. And there was a boy scout camp nearby. One summer day we were sitting by the lake and two very worried camp leaders hiked by and said they were missing a 9 yr old boy scout. he had been gone about an hour by then. We had 6 adults/teens in our group and we knew the area very well so we split up in twos and went in different directions.

My older brother and I were overwhelmed by how hard it was to try and truly scour every foot of our 'grid.' Do you keep going and try to cover ground or do you linger and look in every nook and cranny? It is real next to impossible to really 'clear' an area, imo.

[ he was found safely, but cold and hungry , the next morning.]

 

[Jules71]

Thanks pepelepolecat - I agree and the OT subject is sensitive to me. I get extremely irked when people blame the parents without truly knowing what it is like to be in that type of situation. Hoping the conversation on that topic will end.

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[MzOpinion8d]

Do you have children? Most are "picky" about what they prefer to consume. Have you ever fed your child their first jar of baby food? I have... if they didn't like it there was a squishy face and a bunch of no no head shakes. Some parents think the right thing to do is force their children to like it and be grateful. Tiny learning humans have minds of their own and they are all like snowflakes. Just because you prefer a certain preference does not mean you should force them to like what you like. and you have never been the parent of a two year old have you... They stay two forever and a day. Or at least that is what it feels like. I was not the type of parent to raise a drone. In kindergarten my youngest brought home a "what am I thankful for on Thanksgiving paper" He said he was thankful for Mom Dad and Toast. I was horrified because some breaking news had stated a parent was being investigated for neglect for only feeding their child bread. He would only eat toast for many years. Not because that is all I had to provide, but it was all he wanted. I even spoke with my family MD and others about it. I was told as long as he was consuming something all was good. He moved on to only wanting cheeseburgers and I would drive 120 miles away from home just to make sure he ate something. One of my other children loved Broccoli and other vegetables so much I made sure it was available at every meal. The bottom line is this... every case is like a snowflake. No two are the same just like freethinking people. You cant just jump to conclusions because it is something that happened before. <modsnip>

Sorry for the off topic reply here, but GoBison - (((applause!!!))) I won't take up space here with details, but you are absolutely right that some kids simply can't tolerate certain tastes, textures, and smells, and it's downright cruel to force them to eat things they don't like.

 

[skinnycat]

The female RSO as far as her interview goes do we know for sure that this was a pre-planned interview, or was she caught off gaurd with a reporter and camera crew coming in the door to ask questions. She may have had that deer in the head lights look when the reporter came in the door, but decided that she better answer some questions. I'm shocked that she is able to run a business, that locals would go there, I'd avoid the place like the plague.

I don't know how I feel about the PI, in one thought as a parent, if I truly thought that my child had been kidnapped/abducted and the LE is not taking that route very seriously, then I'd hire the PI right away why let leads go cold, so I wonder why now bring in a PI.

 

[Cardinal47]

I picked up on the past tense in the 911 call, but have since read that isn't an indicator of thinking someone is dead, as the speaker could be thinking of what the child was wearing an hour ago when she last saw him. However, using past tense as in the PI's statement would mean something if it was said by one of the parents. Past tense statements referring to character or characteristics are more indicative of guilty knowledge. (Such as "He was the joy of my life.") JMO

That has always made me question. I think I use past tense quite a bit on those that were here visiting and are now back home.

She was a lot of fun. She was a great cook. She was here for the weekend.

I don't say; She's a lot of fun or she's a good cook.

I speak in present tense when they are here and past tense when they return to their home.

I hope none of mine are ever missing because my speech would certainly make folks ponder my words that I speak of them as gone.

 

[rkf]

That has always made me question. I think I use past tense quite a bit on those that were here visiting and are now back home.

She was a lot of fun. She was a great cook. She was here for the weekend.

I don't say; She's a lot of fun or she's a good cook.

I speak in present tense when they are here and past tense when they return to their home.

I hope none of mine are ever missing because my speech would certainly make folks ponder my words that I speak of them as gone.

I doubt this would work all the time, but try putting "...when she was here visiting." Or "...when she was alive" at the end of each sentence. If the speaker is thinking back on a particular time period, it's different than a more sweeping statement. Also, if your child is missing, I imagine your brain really wants to think of them in the present tense/living. I think it would be harder to use the past tense because it would be like thinking the last time you saw them might be the last time you'd ever see them. Lastly, the best statement analysis has some kind of baseline for peoples' normal speech patterns. If someone self sensors all the time, doing it during an interview is much less indicative of deception than if the person only does it when discussing "sensitive" subjects. JMO

 

[SmartSassyBBW]

ITA. I wish everyone here could read up on statement analysis (NOT reverse speech which is complete and total bunk IMO) There is an excellent book called I Know You're Lying by Mark McClish. I read it on my kindle. I tend to "interpret" for people when they speak, meaning in my head I say "when they said x, they meant y". The point of statement analysis is to not interpret, but just listen/read what the other person is saying/said. There are other aspects such as "pace" which I felt in my gut when watching the original interview, but didn't have words to explain. DK reminded me of when one of my kids doesn't want to tell me what really happened, so they spend a lot of time on details and lead up, putting off the inevitable for as long as possible. Statement analysis can help determine if someone is being deceptive (not necessarily lying - often times leaving something out) and what areas are "sensitive" to the speaker.

Intentional or accidental, every interview so far has been a masterful demonstration of talking without saying anything. That leaves each of us to "interpret" what was said in the most reasonable manner. It also leads people to see things that support any outstanding theories we may have. The absence of information is very telling to me. It doesn't mean they did something to DeOrr, but it appears that they are not being entirely open about what happened. That can be because of guilt that their child went missing and they feel responsible. It could be because they were doing something they don't want anyone to know about during the time DeOrr went missing. We really have no idea, because they haven't said anything that would help us understand much of anything about their trip, including basic details that ordinarily wouldn't be sensitive - time of arrival, who was on the trip, when/why they went to the store, etc.

A really good example of jumping to conclusions/interpreting (reasonably so, IMO) is buying candy for DeOrr at the store. DK never said they bought him candy in the interview. But because of JM's statement before about the clerk seeing a man buying a child matching DeOrr's description candy, and DK jumping in to say that the time was wrong, we "hear" that as the rest is correct, just not the time. Also, a family member posted on a MSM's FB page that they bought candy for DeOrr and ggp. That all colors our perception and our brains make natural connections. BUT unless DK says he bought candy for DeOrr, we can't know that is true.

Sorry to ramble, but I'm pretty fired up about how much information we can glean by not finishing other peoples' thoughts for them.

I feel the same way....a lot of talking in the interviews but not much information.
Also it stuck out to me that the parents did the exact time they placed the call. I know with digital phone screen we do have the exact time available. Would they have the clear headedness to remember the time? If someone was drowning in your pool and you called 911 would you remember the exact time you placed the call?

 

[Cardinal47]

I agree. I think a little boy would have to be really dirty to stand out in a store where there is so much outdoorsy stuff going on. Assuming there really was a sighting at the Stage Stop, I can't imagine most children who come in there are pristine after a day of camping (6 pm). It would make sense if a man and a toddler had just spent four hours hiking 8 miles through the forest into town. I'm not saying that's what happened, but if I thought my child had been abducted, that's what I would think. JMO

Interesting you would say that. I think most of us think everybody has a car at their disposal but that's not necessarily true.

Something to ponder.

I guess my thought now is could a man and a 2 1/2 year old child travel that distance in four hours?

 

[Wendy101]

Ok, so.. According to LE
DeOrr is NOT in the water
He was NOT abducted
Animals did NOT drag him off
Parents are NOT suspect only POI
Grandpa and Issac are POI

Where IS Deorr? is he really missing even? maybe he was handed off? Why is there no media involvement looking for him - from officials - they seems not to be wanting to out his lil face out there .. WHY?

 

[StacyMarie83]

I just have to interject ... LOTS of kids on the autism spectrum have food aversions, which cause them to be extremely picky eaters. I wouldn't even begin to presume to judge someone's parenting or spoiling based on their child's eating habits.

At any rate, maybe DeOrr was chowing on fries and candy because it was a campout and good nutrition does tend to go by the wayside when everyone is eating weenies roasted over an open fire and burnt marshmallow s'mores.

I was responding to a post that called children who are healthy eaters "drones" for being so. And if you do that math, it is not common for a child to have an eating disorder. Just because there are kids that do, does not make it common. I have not seen any posts about deorr being autistic, if he was, statistics for childhood eating disorders would change of course.

I did not say deorr was not eating properly --- one thing of french fries or candy doesn't make an eating habit. I was replying to a previously O/T post. It was bounced off people discussing whether he had baked or fried french fries, which another poster stated that kids wouldn't be that picky between the two and another said they would. I was stating my opinion on this matter. I would not be surprised if any kid were chowing down on any kind of snack during a family outing .. that's usually half the fun

 

[kammiemc]

He seems like a stand up gentleman so I would only hope if he found anything of substance that he would call the FBI and inform them.

I have no idea, but I don't think it would be that easy for him to give FBI, say, a soft lead that (if found to be true) would implicate his clients. Maybe if it was an irrefutable fact, he'd feel had no choice.

I'm kind of imagining him like a meld of an investigator/unofficial public defender/PR spokesperson. I don't know that he'll get more traction in the case by himself than the FBI with their resources. Instead, I think he is there to make sure the parents get the fairest shot of being seen innocent in this.