ID - DeOrr Kunz Jr, 2, Timber Creek Campground, 10 July 2015 - #9

[ILOKAL]

Two things come to mind regarding the posts about hunting season for bears, mountain lions, and wolves as well as the hunters themselves. I recently suggested the possibility and have not heard back yet from the reporter, Nate Eaton, regarding the rallying of hunters, who are excellent trackers along with SAR to search now instead of in the future when a hunter may incidentally find Deorr. Additionally, the fact that there is bear, mountain lion, and wolves hunted in the area just reinforces to me the idea that sweet Deorrr may have taken by a large, predator.

I've thought the same since little Deorr vanished, and apparently that's exactly what happened. The outfitters that have the units surrounding that area have successful hunts. Of course, of the three large predators, the mountain lion is the one who fits the bill, so to speak, when a small child vanishes in an instant. The tree line "appears" to be close enough to the campsite for a mountain lion to have been stalking little Deorr without ever having been seen. I wonder how far the tree line actually is?

 

[Mickshawn]

My heart hurts for this little boy and all who know and love him.

 

[relay]

The last interview with the sheriff just clicked back in my head ...didn't he say wolves and bears were running through the camp while they were searching? Tells me the hunter's would have game to hunt in the close proximity, for sure.

He said that they did see bears and that they had a wolf problem in the past and only came encountered old wolf dens during their searches. They did not mention mountain lions, but one rarely sees these elusive cats. Their elusiveness plus that they are silent ambush predators has kept them at the top of my list of possible predators that may have taken Deorr, especially sine no one reportedly heard or saw anything.

 

[relay]

I've thought the same since little Deorr vanished, and apparently that's exactly what happened. The outfitters that have the units surrounding that area have successful hunts. Of course, of the three large predators, the mountain lion is the one who fits the bill, so to speak, when a small child vanishes in an instant. The tree line "appears" to be close enough to the campsite for a mountain lion to have been stalking little Deorr without ever having been seen. I wonder how far the tree line actually is?

I hope and pray we are wrong, and that somehow Deorr is found safe, but time is not on sweet Deorr's side .

 

[kammiemc]

I've been thinking about the six to eight weeks for the FBI to complete their investigation. What would they be working on that takes that long other than DNA evidence? Does anyone here have any ideas? TIA

I think likely DNA testing. The sheriff said he passed all behavioral evidence and physical evidence to the FBI--so maybe the physical evidence is being tested.

That said, the FBI are probably really almost going back to square one, turning over every stone (the ones that aren't on the mountain).

Also, even if the FBI suspects foul play, it might be very difficult to prove out when DeOrr has not been found. (Think Scott Peterson. LE didn't have enough proof to arrest him until his pregnant wife's body finally surfaced in the SF Bay.) So maybe the FBI wouldn't come out in public with any theories about that until they had enough proof to make an arrest.

However, I would "hope" that if FBI concludes after going over the evidence and doing their own investigation that there is no possibility of foul play or abduction, they will come out and say that publicly so the microscope is taken off all parties present at the campground. (I understand that LE doesn't always "clear" people publicly, but I wish they would/hope they do. It seems the right thing to do.)

 

[carbuff]

​

It almost sounds like a standard (rule of thumb) length of time but probably isn't. Since everything we've been told has said they have found NOTHING, it does make one wonder how they would test that. I would imagine most of it is routine DNA to have on file if needed, but that no longer takes 6-8 wks, does it? Perhaps lack of evidence takes longer to go through than evidence does. Personally I think the FBI will go through interviews, reports, PHOTOS, witness statements, etc. and make comparisons to make sure nothing was missed. I think any photos taken by the investigators and search teams would need to be gone over very carefully. The FBI has so many specialists at its disposable and we know how far reaching their resources can be. They are probably also reviewing statistics - of all kinds. Of course they will look at phone logs and will conduct interviews of their own. I'm sure the list goes on and on, or perhaps, none of the above

They could also be doing forensics on cell phones, cell phone records, laptops, et cetera.

 

[TeaTime]

I know some folks want to think that an animal, particularly a mountain lion, took this child but I can not get past the fact that the scent dogs did not pick up any scent of DeOrr outside of the immediate campsite area or that his boots were not found at the same place where he was attacked and from which he was dragged away. No boots, no scent.

 

[ILOKAL]

I know some folks want to think that an animal, particularly a mountain lion, took this child but I can not get past the fact that the scent dogs did not pick up any scent of DeOrr outside of the immediate campsite area or that his boots were not found at the same place where he was attacked and from which he was dragged away. No boots, no scent.

There wouldn't necessarily be a scent, even if the dogs WERE infallible. At 28 lbs the lion could have easily carried him. If a lion can grab a dog and carry it over a 12 ft fence, I don't think this scenario is at all unreasonable to consider. Of course, that's not to say the lion might also have grabbed and dragged. I don't think his boots would have fallen off in such a case.

 

[kammiemc]

I know some folks want to think that an animal, particularly a mountain lion, took this child but I can not get past the fact that the scent dogs did not pick up any scent of DeOrr outside of the immediate campsite area or that his boots were not found at the same place where he was attacked and from which he was dragged away. No boots, no scent.

I do believe that it is possible that an animal took him, especially since bears and wolves were around during the search. And it sounds like dogs aren't 100% reliable, so again, a slight possibility that dogs missed DeOrr's scent trail. But the thing that confuses me is that the sheriff doesn't think he was taken by an animal, despite this. He hasn't officially ruled it out, but he said he doesn't think that happened. I can only guess that he has a reason beyond what we know. Because from what we know, I would still think it was a pretty possible scenario. Was his reasoning based only on the dogs?

ETA: Mickshawn has some great insight about the dogs. If I weren't on my phone I would go find the post!

 

[Lilibet]

I know some folks want to think that an animal, particularly a mountain lion, took this child but I can not get past the fact that the scent dogs did not pick up any scent of DeOrr outside of the immediate campsite area or that his boots were not found at the same place where he was attacked and from which he was dragged away. No boots, no scent.

Although I think trained scent dogs are amazing, I know of two cases where the results were misleading...Leanne Beardon and Teleka Patrick. It's quite possible they weren't well-trained dogs and conditions weren't optimal in those cases. However, not picking up DeOrr's scent may or may not mean anything. I'm not disagreeing with you, but dogs aren't infallible. JMO

 

[ILOKAL]

He said that they did see bears and that they had a wolf problem in the past and only came encountered old wolf dens during their searches. They did not mention mountain lions, but one rarely sees these elusive cats. Their elusiveness plus that they are silent ambush predators has kept them at the top of my list of possible predators that may have taken Deorr, especially sine no one reportedly heard or saw anything.

Mountain lions will use vacated wolf dens as daytime resting places.

 

[ClaireNC]

There are all kinds of statistics on hunting in the area on the fish and game website.

Here is the website:
https://fishandgame.idaho.gov/ifwis/huntplanner/ choose the Hunt Planner and check off the following options:
All Available
Any Weapon
2015 Season
choose Unit under question 4
then choose Unit 29 on the next page and choose View Hunt at the bottom.

It shows all the hunts that are available in that Unit.

Regular Tag Unlimited tags
10/10/15-10/24/15 Antlered Mule and White-tailed Deer Any Weapon Unit 29³
10/10/15-10/31/15 Antlerless Mule and White-tailed Deer Any Weapon Unit 29¹³
White-tailed Deer Tag Unlimited tags
10/10/15-10/31/15 Antlered White-tailed Deer Any Weapon Unit 29²³
10/10/15-10/31/15 Antlerless White-tailed Deer Any Weapon Unit 29¹²³

Elk Seasons
General A Tag
Lemhi A Tag Unlimited tags
8/1/15-9/30/15 Antlerless Elk Any Weapon Portion of Units 29, 37, 37A and 51³
Controlled Hunt Antlered
Hunt 2005 Area 29 180 tags
10/1/15-10/31/15 Antlered Elk Any Weapon 29³
Controlled Hunt Antlerless
Hunt 2080 Area 29 70 tags
11/1/15-11/20/15 Antlerless Elk Any Weapon 29³
Controlled Hunt Youth Only
Hunt 2171 Area 29 15 tags
10/1/15-11/20/15 Antlerless Elk Any Weapon 29¹³
Controlled Hunt Outfitter Allocated
Hunt 2202 Area 29 7 tags
10/1/15-10/31/15 Antlered Elk Any Weapon 29³
Antelope Seasons
Controlled Hunt Either Sex
Hunt 4001 Area 29-1 40 tags
9/25/15-10/24/15 Either-sex Pronghorn Antelope Any Weapon 29-1³
Hunt 4004 Area 37-1 60 tags
9/25/15-10/24/15 Either-sex Pronghorn Antelope Any Weapon 37-1³

Bear Seasons
General Any Weapon
Regular Tag Unlimited tags
8/30/15-10/31/15 Either-sex Black Bear Any Weapon Unit 29³
4/15/16-6/15/16 Either-sex Black Bear Any Weapon Unit 29³

Lion Seasons
General Any Weapon
Regular Tag Unlimited tags
8/30/15-3/31/16 Either-sex Mountain Lion Any Weapon Unit 29³

Wolf Seasons
General Any Weapon
Regular Tag Unlimited tags
8/30/15-3/31/16 Either-sex Wolf Any Weapon Southern Mountains Zone³

Moose Seasons
Controlled Hunt Antlered
Hunt 3051 Area 29* 11 tags
8/30/15-11/23/15 Antlered Moose Any Weapon 29*

Goat Seasons
Controlled Hunt Either Sex
Hunt 6017 Area 37A* 1 tags
8/30/15-11/12/15 Either-sex Mountain Goat Any Weapon 37A*

Looking at the list of available hunts, If you click on forth column in any of the rows, (fourth from the left), where there are blue hyperlinks like "Unit 29" It will take you to a page that has statistics on hunting in that unit near the bottom of the page.

For instance, it says that in All 452,332 acres in Unit 29, only 911 hunters took 300 deer in 2014. There were 175 Elk hunters in the ENTIRE Unit 29 in 2014 and they took 107 Elk. In 2012, there was one Mountain Lion harvested by a hunter in ALL of Unit 29. In 2014 there were 14 bear harvested. There are no statistics for Wolves hunted in that area.

 

[Arnie M]

.

Infra red heat sensing cameras in a state of the art helicopter was used in the search for DeOrr

Those cameras also pick up every animal in the forest

They only saw one old male wolf and it was not close to the camping area.

.

 

[ClaireNC]

Although I think trained scent dogs are amazing, I know of two cases where the results were misleading...Leanne Beardon and Teleka Patrick. It's quite possible they weren't well-trained dogs and conditions weren't optimal in those cases. However, not picking up DeOrr's scent may or may not mean anything. I'm not disagreeing with you, but dogs aren't infallible. JMO

Just jumping off your post Lilibet. This is not directed at you. A lot of us have been frustrated that the search dogs were not able to find little Deorr. But today there was some good news about their abilities. Search dogs were successful today in finding 10 year old Malachi Bradley who was missing from a wilderness area in Utah.

 

[neesaki]

They could also be doing forensics on cell phones, cell phone records, laptops, et cetera.

Thanks, that just occurred to me as well after reading ILOKAL's post.

 

[ClaireNC]

.

Infra red heat sensing cameras in a state of the art helicopter was used in the search for DeOrr

Those cameras also pick up every animal in the forest

They only saw one old male wolf and it was not close to the camping area.

.

Thanks Arnie, That is an interesting bit of info. Where did you see that?

 

[ClaireNC]

They could also be doing forensics on cell phones, cell phone records, laptops, et cetera.

Another reason for the 6 to 8 week time period is that they probably don't have many agents working on this case. It might just be one or two people wading through mountains of papers and whatever other bits of evidence.

 

[ILOKAL]

There are also statistics for the adjoining hunting units. Dispersed lions, particularly males, travel great distances to relocate and find a new territory. Most mountain lion attacks are by dispersed male lions.

 

[carbuff]

I do believe that it is possible that an animal took him, especially since bears and wolves were around during the search. And it sounds like dogs aren't 100% reliable, so again, a slight possibility that dogs missed DeOrr's scent trail. But the thing that confuses me is that the sheriff doesn't think he was taken by an animal, despite this. He hasn't officially ruled it out, but he said he doesn't think that happened. I can only guess that he has a reason beyond what we know. Because from what we know, I would still think it was a pretty possible scenario. Was his reasoning based only on the dogs?

ETA: Mickshawn has some great insight about the dogs. If I weren't on my phone I would go find the post!

Animals usually leave some signs that they were around. If there weren't any recent signs in the area of the campground, that would make it less likely they were there when Deorr was.

 

[kammiemc]

.

Infra red heat sensing cameras in a state of the art helicopter was used in the search for DeOrr

Those cameras also pick up every animal in the forest

They only saw one old male wolf and it was not close to the camping area.

.

Good info! If that helicopter was used soon after the disappearance and covered a large enough vicinity that they believe they should have been able to spot any animal predator candidate, then that could very well be why the sheriff dismisses the animal abduction theory (beyond that the dogs didn't pick up a scent trail that led off anywhere than to possibly the reservoir).