I doubt the harvested number has as much to do with the density as it has to do with the elusiveness of the lion and difficulty in finding them, even WITH several dogs. And, mountain lions are apex animals whose offspring have a high survival rate and they live in areas with dense populations of prey. I doubt that the one lion harvested in Unit #29 in 2012 is in any way indicative of the density of lions in that unit.
ID - DeOrr Kunz Jr, 2, Timber Creek Campground, 10 July 2015 - #9
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This was awesome rkf, you're the rock star of sleuthing
I feel like I need to explain that I didn't email them (just) because I'm nosy. I have worked with many nonprofits, even owning a small cause marketing firm. In the interest of full disclosure, I will post my original email. It might seem a little harsh, but non-profits are special entities, which must fulfill specific responsibilities in exchange for the privileges they enjoy. I'm particularly partial to small and medium sized non-profits, which are usually passion projects started by one or a few people. However, when people pretend to be a charity without the checks and balances required of a 501(c)3, it really makes me mad. People give to good causes because they want to help and I think it's incredibly low to take advantage of people in that situation. I still don't know what's going on with "miracles for little man". Anyone can buy a .org domain name, but that doesn't make them a legitimate organization.
My original email wasn't answered, so I sent a second email and included the first:
"Good afternoon.
I sent an email yesterday asking some questions about your online store to raise money for the search for DeOrr Kunz. In case it got lost in your inbox, I’m resending it. I’ve helped many nonprofits reach or exceed their fundraising goals and would like to know more about your organization. I see on your website that 100% of the proceeds go toward the search for little man. How do you calculate the proceeds (income less expenses)? Is money going toward searching near the campsite, across the country or both? How will obtaining resources for the family help with the search? Is the family taking any actions, other than sharing DeOrr’s photo on social media, to further the search for their son? If you’re raising awareness, wouldn’t including a “missing poster” with each purchase or donation be a good way to do that? People could hang them up in their neighborhood or even make copies and distribute them where they live. I’ve edited private investigator Frank Vilt’s poster so that it looks more professional and can be printed on standard 8.5”x11” letter paper. I’ve attached a copy below if you’d like to use it. I don’t know if he is sharing his tips with law enforcement, so you may prefer to use one of the posters that gives the Lemhi County Sheriff’s Office number.
These may seem like tough questions, but they are the types of questions big donors will ask. It’s important to have specific goals that you share with perspective donors and to update past and current donors on progress toward those goals.
RKF"
Included first email here: "Hi. I have a few questions about Miracles for Little Man. Is Miracles for Little Man a 501(c)3? Are donations tax-deductible? What types of resources does DeOrr’s family need? How much (what percentage) of the money raised goes toward promoting awareness of Little Man’s disappearance and to help the family? How will the money be used to promote awareness? By the family, do you mean DeOrr’s parents, Jessica and DeOrr Sr? Are you related to the parents, friends, or simply concerned citizens?
Thanks for answering my questions.
RKF"
bluesneakers
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I saw a link to a Hypothetical Store in a comment on SM by an SP. Hmmm.
My hinky meter twitched too.
Found it too, its not SP its a DB and is on his page. Still hinky and odd all the way around.
bluesneakers
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I had all those same questions after reading. I would be creeped out if I were getting so much attention from a stranger. Also, SP has an interesting group of friends.
I don't think DB is an old family friend, and find the whole hypothetical store thing creepy and a little vulturey too.
Thank you for doing the research!
Send a hypothetical donation.
While a mountain lion may have jumped over a fence with a 28 lb dog, that doesn't mean it did so without the dog's body ever touching the fence or the ground. The cat is not going to run for 2.5 miles holding a child in its teeth with its head held up in the air so that nothing touches the ground. It just didn't happen.
The only animal that could carry the child away without dragging him on the ground is a human. The same one that carried off his boots too.
Sheriff says he is 99% sure the child was at the campsite and is 100% sure he was not in the creek. I am 100% sure it was not a mountain lion, bear, wolf or coyote attack. Any of those animals would claw and bite to kill, leaving blood somewhere and they don't drag the kill 2.5 miles away before stopping to eat. Coyotes hunt at night, as do wolves and both hunt in packs. Coyotes yip,yip,yip after a kill and you can hear it for miles around. Wolves would have been howling at night. Bears and cats are lazy and eat where they make the kill unless frightened away or their kill is threatened. Even then they don't go far and after they eat their fill, if there is anything left, they hang around the kill to protect it so the helicopter with infra red would have picked up the animal in the area. The helicopter picking up only a lone wolf just doesn't convince me that animal attack is even a possibility. It may be under other circumstances but this one doesn't fit.
This is a human event.
While a mountain lion may have jumped over a fence with a 28 lb dog, that doesn't mean it did so without the dog's body ever touching the fence or the ground. The cat is not going to run for 2.5 miles holding a child in its teeth with its head held up in the air so that nothing touches the ground. It just didn't happen.
The only animal that could carry the child away without dragging him on the ground is a human. The same one that carried off his boots too.
Sheriff says he is 99% sure the child was at the campsite and is 100% sure he was not in the creek. I am 100% sure it was not a mountain lion, bear, wolf or coyote attack. Any of those animals would claw and bite to kill, leaving blood somewhere and they don't drag the kill 2.5 miles away before stopping to eat. Coyotes hunt at night, as do wolves and both hunt in packs. Coyotes yip,yip,yip after a kill and you can hear it for miles around. Wolves would have been howling at night. Bears and cats are lazy and eat where they make the kill unless frightened away or their kill is threatened. Even then they don't go far and after they eat their fill, if there is anything left, they hang around the kill to protect it so the helicopter with infra red would have picked up the animal in the area. The helicopter picking up only a lone wolf just doesn't convince me that animal attack is even a possibility. It may be under other circumstances but this one doesn't fit.
This is a human event.
I agree, as long as the dogs were scented properly and were actually ON little Deoors trail that is where they trailed.
I'm kind of disappointed because I wanted the site to be "a good thing". Maybe it is, but I think it's just more begging for money when there's a tragedy. I can't stand it when people start crowdfunding sites when someone dies. (I understand if a family can't afford to bury their loved one, but can't friends and family help out? Government programs are created just for those circumstances. We pay tax dollars so they're available when absolutely necessary.) It really makes me crazy when someone starts a fundraiser when they've lost a child. The child was not bringing in income, so why does the family need to profit from the child's death? So, the crowdfunding pages set up around DeOrr's disappearance (at least one of them within days of his disappearance. At that time, I would have expected it to be a short time until DeOrr was found) and then this money grab, without any explanation of how it will be used, really got my dander up. I was angry that either the family or someone else was using DeOrr's disappearance/kidnapping to make money, when his own parents don't appear to be doing the bare minimum to get his information widely distributed and DK told the SAR dog handler he contacted that he didn't want forensic scent evidence dogs (cadaver dogs). If he's at the camp site, cadaver dogs should be a no-brainer. If he's been kidnapped, MSM wants the parents to go on TV and talk about their child. Again, these people may be big-hearted and inexperienced, but I don't think it's reasonable to ask people for money and refuse to say who it's going to or how it will be used. JMO
Actually, after the lion has carried or dragged his kill to a hidden place and begins the methodical eating ritual, he often then MOVES the kill to a different location and covers it to hide it from other predators and to keep the kill fresh.
Here are the posters I mentioned earlier. One is the original provided by PI Frank Vilt. The other is one I created using the same information and photos. See if you can figure out which one was produced for the start of a push for national media attention. Which one can be printed on standard size paper for easy distribution?
8" x 11" 300 pixels/inch
13.33" x 13.33" 72 pixels/inch
8" x 11" 300 pixels/inch
13.33" x 13.33" 72 pixels/inch
1&2&3
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A few things in this dog search do not pass the sniff test (no pun intended).
We now know the family arrived on Thursday night. For the sake of argument, let's say Deorr did not get out and walk around upon arriving at 9:30 PM as it was pitch dark. Friday morning Deorr was most likely up bright and early, or by 7:00 AM. He and one of the parents, if not both, got out of the truck and went walking around.
Why did the dogs only find his scent from the campsite to the reservoir? Why did the dogs not sniff around in the area where everyone was camped? His scent had to be in more than just that one path to the reservoir. I doubt he was carried all morning. We have had WS say on here that even if carried, a dog may still pick up the scent. That little 2 year old did not stand still all morning, I can guarantee that!
This is a major red flag to me. If left with GGF at the campfire, Deorr's scent should be in that area too.
We now know the family arrived on Thursday night. For the sake of argument, let's say Deorr did not get out and walk around upon arriving at 9:30 PM as it was pitch dark. Friday morning Deorr was most likely up bright and early, or by 7:00 AM. He and one of the parents, if not both, got out of the truck and went walking around.
Why did the dogs only find his scent from the campsite to the reservoir? Why did the dogs not sniff around in the area where everyone was camped? His scent had to be in more than just that one path to the reservoir. I doubt he was carried all morning. We have had WS say on here that even if carried, a dog may still pick up the scent. That little 2 year old did not stand still all morning, I can guarantee that!
This is a major red flag to me. If left with GGF at the campfire, Deorr's scent should be in that area too.
I've heard two different stories and I hope someone has good links.
The first, seems to be the same as what the Sheriff said - the dogs followed a scent trail from the campsite to the reservoir and back. The second story I heard was that the dogs walked to the reservoir and back, but never caught DeOrr's scent. I thought scent dogs were off-leash, but the latter story seems to imply that either the handlers walked them up the path to the reservoir or walked with them, guiding them toward the reservoir. If they never caught DeOrr's scent and humans weren't walking them to the reservoir and back, why would the dogs go up that way on their own? Hoping a K9 person can help here.
JMO since I don't have links.
ETA: Actually more than two stories. Those above were just about the tracking dogs. Thinking about the cadaver dogs that were thrown off by the cremains... Finding decomposition and cremains are two different skill sets. It's my understanding from talking with a SAR K9 expert that properly trained forensic scent dogs would not be thrown of by cremains if they were hunting for decomp. I don't think it entered anyone's mind that they should search for DeOrr's cremains, so the dogs would have been looking (scenting) for decomposing human remains. Cremains do not smell the same, and I believe cadaver dogs who are trained for cremains are taught to differentiate. I still think it's hinky that the cadaver dogs' hit at the reservoir was dismissed because of the cremain dumping. I can see how a defense attorney might introduce reasonable doubt with the cremains, but I find it hard to believe that a cadaver dog would mistake cremains for decomp. A body left on the ground for a period of time (not sure exactly how long - might depend on how long the person has been dead) would leave evidence of decomp that dogs could find, even if the body was moved before the dogs arrived. Hope one of our K9/SAR people can point out my mistakes in logic here.
ClaireNC
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Wow rfk, Thanks you for reaching out and trying to find out what that site is all about. I had a lot of the same questions running through my head and really doubted their intentions. Now I doubt them even more. The owners names and telephone numbers are on the website. The owners initials are DB and KB and they are on the Help Find Deorr Kunz FB page. DB posted a link to the "Miracle" website yesterday and said that he is friends with Deorr and they talk often. He also said there are a lot of things going on behind the scenes that he is not able to mention in a public forum.
I am very highly suspicious of their intentions. I wonder if they really know the parents or if their "friendship" is just since little Deorr went missing. I wonder how much of the donations are going to the couple that is running the fundraiser? I know there are very strict rules about being a true non-profit. Are there rules about things like this? Is what they are doing illegal? It certainly sounds unethical.
What are you considering the campsite? It seems to me when Deorr's scent was tracked from the campsite to the reservoir and back to the campsite that doesn't limit his movement to the reservoir (to a trail or path) nor does it limit his movement at the campsite (to a small place where he stood).
1&2&3
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The original, created by the PI is on the RIGHT.
The one you created is on the LEFT.
The RIGHT one is not professionally done. If I had hired the PI and this was the poster he created, my hinky meter would go up in a flash. As well as my temper!
The one on the LEFT is neat, gives the important information, easy to read. You did this one, this is the type of work you have shown us you do. Thank you.
Elena
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He's one adorable little man! He looks like a mini Deorr Sr.Here are the posters I mentioned earlier. One is the original provided by PI Frank Vilt. The other is one I created using the same information and photos. See if you can figure out which one was produced for the start of a push for national media attention. Which one can be printed on standard size paper for easy distribution?
8" x 11" 300 pixels/inch
13.33" x 13.33" 72 pixels/inch
Jules71
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I suspect once the sheriff heard about the cremains and since the divers/searchers had not turned up anything in the reservoir, he dismissed the dogs alerting to the reservoir. Not good. But then again, DeOrr probably would have surfaced by now if he was there.
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