ID - Doomsday Cult Victims - Joshua Vallow, Tylee Ryan, Tammy Daybell, Charles Vallow *Arrests* #73

[pizzaman12]

Everybody labeled dark had a potential to become a zombie and be harmed eventually, especially if they were in the way of their mission and/or their death could be profited from.

IMO Chad realized that he could manipulate others to kill in order to achieve his goals. His goals were power, money and sex with Lori. Without her he would not have been as motivated.

BBM- This. I'm sure both would have been horrible people whether they met each other or not, but pretty sad to see those two cross paths and the destruction they caused. Two awesome children with their whole lives ahead of them. Ugh.

 

[887sMtreme]

I think there's a likely layer in the sequence of events that has been overlooked. Just an idea, but to me it not only fits but also explains a lot that is otherwise puzzling. I didn't double-check the details, so some may be slightly off as to time/sequence, but I think the themes of impatient, frustration, lust, and goddess making demands have been in this story at the end, but overlooked in how they manifested.

HERE'S MY STORY.

<snipped for focus>

Finally, Chad takes action. He can't wait to figure out any sort of elaborate plan. So impulsively, one night when he and Tammy are alone, he simply smothers Tammy to death, and then the next morning claims she died in her sleep.

Hey, not bad! The only fact that doesn’t fit the impulsive murder at the end is Alex nearby in the church parking lot, previously thought to be part of a backup plan in case the Chadster failed in his deadly mission. How do we account for that?

 

[scapa]

Yes. PE is pretty easy to diagnose esp. with imaging studies.

This.

There are of course significant differences in diagnosis of a patient and those available via autopsy findings. For the former, imaging especially (CTPA/ CTPA, VQ, duplex US, etc, etc.)

I'm not a pathologist, but findings in autopsy would be clear and in the case of AC there would also be treatment records. PE is common enough to show up consistently in hospital autopsies and in AC's case would have been flagged up by his history.

I've commented on this before in these threads, but inducing PE is not a straightforward procedure for a layperson at home. It requires high pressure at high rates in a relatively compliant (preferably inert) subject. I get that it's a staple of Golden Age detective fiction but as a guaranteed method of murder I'd rate it as difficult and highly unreliable.

Not saying that a batch of loonbuckets as loonbuckety as the CD/ LVD crew wouldn't try it and depend on their Higher Power to make it work, but they'd be rolling the dice and, as we've seen with their other murders / attempts, it seems way to subtle for them -- drive-bys and asphyxiation are more their style, and killers tend to go with what's worked already.

 

[887sMtreme]

No it couldn't have been Chad because Tammy ran inside the house and Chad and her son were inside, not wearing masks or holding guns. She saw the gunman run away.

The fact he ran around to the back of the house has always struck me as strange. There is nothing back there but Daybell outbuildings and beyond then, vast stretches of open land where a runaway could easily be spotted and, like a raccoon, shot dead.

 

[Chelly]

I question that as well. I think he killed Tammy but had Alex close by to finish the job if he could not do it.

Agree. Sadly by this point, Chad, Lori and Alex had become a killing-team. What a horrible thought.
MOO

 

[Kemug]

I wonder what would have happened if Chad's children (or at least some of them) had been minors? Doesn't bear thinking about.

 

[Tortoise]

The fact he ran around to the back of the house has always struck me as strange.

I've seen testimony somewhere (have searched for it but no luck so far) that one of the investigating officers located a place on the road leading away from the rear of the property, alongside a ditch, which was just big enough for one vehicle to park. He thought that's where Alex would have left his vehicle.

eta found it

11:47 a.m. A data point is recorded at a canal behind Chad’s house. “The road is fairly narrow and there is no shoulder. I was looking for a possible location where this person could have gone or if there was a vehicle nearby where it might have parked. There really was no place for a vehicle…but right here near this canal there’s a little pull-off that would fit one vehicle.”
DAY 19 | LIVE UPDATES: Medical examiner who performed Tammy Daybell's autopsy takes the stand - East Idaho News

 

[minazoe]

That is very strange. I really not much of a conspiracy theorist but we've now got at least 4 deaths around these folks related to lung or other issues (Tammy, Alex, Eldon, Joe Ryan). I hope LE is at least doing a basic investigation.

I remembered the other day that there was a mysterious death outside an LDS temple in the Phoenix area around the time they first started looking for the kids. At the time it was dismissed as unrelated. I'm going to try to dig up the information about that again and see if I can make any connections given vast amount we know now.

a lot of pulmonary embolisms going around....and what I would call off-putting deaths....it's too neat and close to the actual events.. makes me concerned that there is some way to cause this embolism type death,,.additional autopsies and tests need to be performed..nothing in this case is a coincidence..I don't believe it..I also think they would get rid of any intruders or persons who asked questions.. If I was this neighbors family , I would want to know if this person was a victim of Lori and Chad. He could have seen something or said something to them.

Chad and Lori..two serial killers on a bender. mOO

 

[Nikynoo]

Hey, not bad! The only fact that doesn’t fit the impulsive murder at the end is Alex nearby in the church parking lot, previously thought to be part of a backup plan in case the Chadster failed in his deadly mission. How do we account for that?

Initially I thought the same as you, he may have turned his phone off and carried on with his journey and parked nearby Chads. The only doubt I have is why turn it back on again and also why turn it off in the first place. I would want more analysis on that part.

 

[Nikynoo]

The fact he ran around to the back of the house has always struck me as strange. There is nothing back there but Daybell outbuildings and beyond then, vast stretches of open land where a runaway could easily be spotted and, like a raccoon, shot dead.

An FBI agent said (and I think it was this week) that there was a lay-by near the canal, behind chads that was big enough to park one car. The agent hypothesised that as this was behind the house the person who took a shot at Alex would have had to run in that direction to reach it.

 

[Gut_feeling]

The fact he ran around to the back of the house has always struck me as strange. There is nothing back there but Daybell outbuildings and beyond then, vast stretches of open land where a runaway could easily be spotted and, like a raccoon, shot dead.

If I remember correctly, there's some sort of canal with a pull off spot that would fit one car. When I heard canal I thought of how Alex had ordered the frog togg pants (he ended up leaving a pair at the condo with the tags still attached.) Maybe he thought it might be wet back there, but it ended up being 26° that night.

Eda: oops, sorry Nikynoo, I didn't see your response

 

[887sMtreme]

If I remember correctly, there's some sort of canal with a pull off spot that would fit one car. When I heard canal I thought of how Alex had ordered the frog togg pants (he ended up leaving a pair at the condo with the tags still attached.) Maybe he thought it might be wet back there, but it ended up being 26° that night.

Eda: oops, sorry Nikynoo, I didn't see your response

Thanks to you and Nikynoo for possibility that makes sense. I thought the shooter had parked on the road in front of the house. Honestly, no aspect of the assault made sense to me.

 

[indicolite22]

Initially I thought the same as you, he may have turned his phone off and carried on with his journey and parked nearby Chads. The only doubt I have is why turn it back on again and also why turn it off in the first place. I would want more analysis on that part.

Bryan Kohberger did the same. He left home at night with his phone and turned it off (or put it in airplane mode) on the way to the murder house. After the murders he turned it back on before he reached home.

IMO Alex was closer to Chad's house that night than indicated by his phone pings. After Garth left for work he could have entered the house and assist Chad in Tammy's murder.

 

[aafromaa]

An FBI agent said (and I think it was this week) that there was a lay-by near the canal, behind chads that was big enough to park one car. The agent hypothesised that as this was behind the house the person who took a shot at Alex would have had to run in that direction to reach it.

”lay-by” is not a term I’m familiar with but I see you are from the UK and perhaps it is a common term there…gave me a chuckle

 

[SteveS]

Hey, not bad! The only fact that doesn’t fit the impulsive murder at the end is Alex nearby in the church parking lot, previously thought to be part of a backup plan in case the Chadster failed in his deadly mission. How do we account for that?

Thanks.

I would think that Alex 's presence when Tammy died would fit as more of the same scenario I am speculating.

As I see it, after the kids died, Lori expected Tammy would follow right away. But as the days pile up, with no job or kids, Lori has started demanding and pushing for things to change pronto. She has taken herself out of town, miffed and "teaching Chad a lesson." But impatient, seeing Chad doing nothing, Alex has been sent to do the deal with no success. She's also trying to do it herself by the castings. Chad has semi-committed to something happening to Tammy before she turns 50, but in my scenario showing no urgency, since it was 8 1/2 months from JJ's death to Tammy's 50th birthday. Lori is antsy and not pleased.

I think Alex was going to act again at some point (whether successful or not), if Chad hadn't. The goddess wasn't going to put up with the nonsense of waiting forever. On the night Tammy died, maybe Alex was the backup if Chad tried to bail, or maybe he was the threat to Chad himself if Chad didn't act, or maybe it was a case of Lori lighting a fire under both of them and their efforts happened to overlap.

 

[SteveS]

Where is the zombie doctrine (the need to kill the body of a possessed individual in order for the spirit to progress to the next life) mentioned in the LDS literature? Evil possession as such can be found in other religions, as well as exorcism.

Evil spirits (but NOT zombies, murdering people to release spirits, or multiple lives) are certainly in the Bible, and LDS claims to follow the Bible PLUS more.

However, if I understand LDS thinking correctly, the issue that is allowing this sort of teaching to arise and be readily accepted by many in the LDS is one of "revelation" and the way it is seen. (If I am at all misstating LDS ideas, my apologies, but this is my understanding.)

Historical Christianity has generally seen "revelation" as culminating in Jesus, who as God had an ability to reveal God to us in a way that can never be superseded, and God's Scripture with its authority ended with Jesus and those in the 1st century who knew Him and were inspired by God to share with us (ie, the New Testament). We push back against anyone who would say they have words that are more important than what was shared by Jesus and those who knew Him, or that adds to or contradicts.

In contrast, LDS is both based on and endorses the idea of continuing or new revelation of equal authority. That was the basis for Joseph Smith's ideas, that he had something new that was of equal authority to the Bible or even greater. And others have followed him in that same spirit. Now it's Chad Daybell, with something new that is of equal authority or greater for LDS to follow.

So to them, the lack of prior mention isn't an issue, and may even be self-validating, since it is previously unheard and thus could be "new revelation."

 

[fred&edna]

I keep going back to "Visions of Glory". I'm honestly surprised Chad didn't call himself "Spencer" (the NDE-enlightened guy referenced and quoted in the book). I don't know that the book was ever "approved" by LDS officials but I think many LDS members were "Visions of Glory" fans soon after it was released. (JMO which could be wrong )

 

[887sMtreme]

Thanks.

I would think that Alex 's presence when Tammy died would fit as more of the same scenario I am speculating.

As I see it, after the kids died, Lori expected Tammy would follow right away. But as the days pile up, with no job or kids, Lori has started demanding and pushing for things to change pronto. She has taken herself out of town, miffed and "teaching Chad a lesson." But impatient, seeing Chad doing nothing, Alex has been sent to do the deal with no success. She's also trying to do it herself by the castings. Chad has semi-committed to something happening to Tammy before she turns 50, but in my scenario showing no urgency, since it was 8 1/2 months from JJ's death to Tammy's 50th birthday. Lori is antsy and not pleased.

I think Alex was going to act again at some point (whether successful or not), if Chad hadn't. The goddess wasn't going to put up with the nonsense of waiting forever. On the night Tammy died, maybe Alex was the backup if Chad tried to bail, or maybe he was the threat to Chad himself if Chad didn't act, or maybe it was a case of Lori lighting a fire under both of them and their efforts happened to overlap.

I’ll accept that

 

[indicolite22]

Thanks.

I would think that Alex 's presence when Tammy died would fit as more of the same scenario I am speculating.

As I see it, after the kids died, Lori expected Tammy would follow right away. But as the days pile up, with no job or kids, Lori has started demanding and pushing for things to change pronto. She has taken herself out of town, miffed and "teaching Chad a lesson." But impatient, seeing Chad doing nothing, Alex has been sent to do the deal with no success. She's also trying to do it herself by the castings. Chad has semi-committed to something happening to Tammy before she turns 50, but in my scenario showing no urgency, since it was 8 1/2 months from JJ's death to Tammy's 50th birthday. Lori is antsy and not pleased.

I think Alex was going to act again at some point (whether successful or not), if Chad hadn't. The goddess wasn't going to put up with the nonsense of waiting forever. On the night Tammy died, maybe Alex was the backup if Chad tried to bail, or maybe he was the threat to Chad himself if Chad didn't act, or maybe it was a case of Lori lighting a fire under both of them and their efforts happened to overlap.

Chad waited until September 8 to increase Tammy's life insurance. That same day/night they murdered Tylee. Lori and Chad were both making steps towards their goal - be together in Hawaii, free of children and spending life insurance proceeds. IMO they carefully planned the timeline. With the children gone, they were unobstructed to plot new murders and carry them out at the first opportunity. Alex was just a tool to Chad and Lori. He had no motive of his own to kill.

 

[wnk]

<snipped for focus>

In contrast, LDS is both based on and endorses the idea of continuing or new revelation of equal authority. That was the basis for Joseph Smith's ideas, that he had something new that was of equal authority to the Bible or even greater. And others have followed him in that same spirit. Now it's Chad Daybell, with something new that is of equal authority or greater for LDS to follow.

So to them, the lack of prior mention isn't an issue, and may even be self-validating, since it is previously unheard and thus could be "new revelation."

Agreed. This continuing revelation is, according to the LDS church itself, what sets itself apart from the rest of Christianity (which, generally speaking, considers the biblical canon closed and complete). As a member of the First Presidency (one the top 3 leaders in the LDS church) has stated:

"Not only was [Joseph Smith] then called of God to establish the true Church of Jesus Christ, but with it was restored the power to invoke the Holy Ghost so that revelation from God could be continuous." (LINK)

From my experience living in an LDS-majority community, it is not uncommon at all to hear about people speaking of "promptings" or "being inspired to" or "being led to" do things. Often this is confirmed to them by a "burning in the bosom" -- a description used by Joseph Fielding Smith:

"A similar privilege is given to any member of the Church who seeks knowledge in the spirit of prayer and faith. The Lord will cause the feeling of security and truth to take hold of the individual and burn within the bosom, and there will be an overwhelming feeling that the thing is right." (LINK)

Did LVD & CD have an overwhelming feeling that the things they were doing were right? Yes, I believe that they manipulated themselves and each other to believe they were "feeling the spirit," when in fact, they were feeling the thrill and sick satisfaction their own greed and selfishness. But the mind is a powerful thing, and if they are still "true believers" in their own "personal revelations," that puts the Defense in a tough spot, because the crimes were committed by them and yet they don't believe they should be held responsible. IMO, unless they are deprogrammed somehow, they will always believe (just like Warren Jeffs) that they are martyrs being persecuted for their religious beliefs.

MOO. IMO. IANAL.