Found Deceased ID - Joshua Vallow, 7, & Tylee Ryan, 16, Rexburg, Sept 2019 *Arrests* #53

[indicolite22]

Sorry, still looking for where she said she did on her own and not at request of LE.. and got sidetracked searching for such...

I got it now what you meant and I remember her saying that she recorded the call on her own accord.

@12:50 She discussed conversation with Lori on the weekend that she was visiting and that she wanted JJ to go live with Kay. And Lori expressed JJ could go to live with Kay and "she expressed different solutions"that she could stay with Kay or the son of Kay that she was comfortable with, "or that they liked JJ and that was a good match and I think that they had a little girl." (e.d. talking about CR?) She said that she would express to Kay that she was sick or something was wrong with her so that she could live with (them?/him) " Clarified upon question "that JJ could live with Kay"

BBM. I don't think CR was an option, only Kay's relatives (her son).

18:57 Within an hour or two, Lori called her after Chad called her. And she was upbeat and cheery like nothing was wrong. (e.d. like she always is, like on the call with Chad when bodies being pulled out of the ground) And that she/Lori had told the police that MG had JJ, that she had told police that MG was with JJ at the movie called Frozen and Lori asked her to take photos of random kids to look like she had JJ. (E.d. this is so strange as didn't Lori KNOW that MG was in another state with David, so why even say that JJ is in Arizona with MG? So easy to find such is untrue )

My logical conclusion is that Lori either didn't know that MG was out of state or she was desperate. Technically she could have called her mother or another Arizona relative instead.

20:20 "....And that she (Lori) would come by and pick him up then, no I'm sorry, that after me driving home from Utah to Arizona that she would come and get him later that week" (e.d. this means that Lori knew and planned that MG wasn't even in Arizona where the Gilbert police went to the MG house, and that she wouldn't be getting to Arizona for some time as she was with DW in UTAH and was only going back to Arizona for Thanksgiving)...that she told LE she was going to pick up JJ from Arizona later.

IMO Lori didn't know where MG was when she lied to police, but learned she was in Utah when she called her, so Lori's instructions to MG to lie were about the new situation.

@21:55 Prosecutor asks, "did Lori say anything to you about JJ" A: re Kay "She said that Kay was trying to kidnap JJ, and I said how do you know, and she said well, I've received emails, you know, being threatened, that, that was um, that he was going to kidnap .

Okie Dokey, so at this point, a person might say.. you mean that you left JJ with Kay at the airport, and then Kay AFTER that time said she was going to kidnap JJ through emails, and threatened etc.

Normal person here would immediately say? MOO, if I was of the ilk to protect JJ/my friend *cough*.. "oh my gosh Lori, how did you get JJ back to successfully hide him from Kay? Is JJ ok? Are you ok?"

We don't know what MG said to Lori other than that MG refused to take pics of random kids and present them as JJ's. We know that MG asked Chad: "JJ is not with Kay?" and he replied that he couldn't tell her where he was for his safety. Days later MG was trying to make Lori explain on the recorded conversation how did she come from placing JJ with Kay to taking him into hiding. Lori never explained that. It's not clear if she told MG that JJ had been in hiding the entire time.

 

[squareandrabbet]

Sorry, still looking for where she said she did on her own and not at request of LE.. and got sidetracked searching for such...

Going back to transcribe from prelim... need a refresher myself for just a little now, then RL and will revisit...

@12:50 She discussed conversation with Lori on the weekend that she was visiting and that she wanted JJ to go live with Kay. And Lori expressed JJ could go to live with Kay and "she expressed different solutions"that she could stay with Kay or the son of Kay that she was comfortable with, "or that they liked JJ and that was a good match and I think that they had a little girl." (e.d. talking about CR?) She said that she would express to Kay that she was sick or something was wrong with her so that she could live with (them?/him) " Clarified upon question "that JJ could live with Kay"

@14:00 re follow up to that conversation shortly after. (e.d. no date given) MG states that the nature of that conversation was MG asking Lori how it went, and she said that they met up in an airport and that Lori had told Kay that she had breast cancer and she would need help with JJ for a period of time and that it went well.

@15:10 re Nov 26th 2019 She was in Pleasant Grove UTAH with DW visiting. That day, Chad called MG late morning on his -9374 call where he said Rexburg police were going to call and not pick up as the police were at Lori's home and inquiring where JJ was. And that she was going to tell the police that JJ was with MG. She asked "JJ's not at Kay's house"? And Chad said no. MG asked CD if he was nervous, and he said yes.

18:57 Within an hour or two, Lori called her after Chad called her. And she was upbeat and cheery like nothing was wrong. (e.d. like she always is, like on the call with Chad when bodies being pulled out of the ground) And that she/Lori had told the police that MG had JJ, that she had told police that MG was with JJ at the movie called Frozen and Lori asked her to take photos of random kids to look like she had JJ. (E.d. this is so strange as didn't Lori KNOW that MG was in another state with David, so why even say that JJ is in Arizona with MG? So easy to find such is untrue )

20:20 "....And that she (Lori) would come by and pick him up then, no I'm sorry, that after me driving home from Utah to Arizona that she would come and get him later that week" (e.d. this means that Lori knew and planned that MG wasn't even in Arizona where the Gilbert police went to the MG house, and that she wouldn't be getting to Arizona for some time as she was with DW in UTAH and was only going back to Arizona for Thanksgiving)...that she told LE she was going to pick up JJ from Arizona later.

(e.d. this is where I previously was really confused, as supposedly the prosecutor is asking about the day of the phone calls initially when Rexburg police were at the house and Lori and Chad called her immediately. As we move into the next minute, it appears she is

@21:55 Prosecutor asks, "did Lori say anything to you about JJ" A: re Kay "She said that Kay was trying to kidnap JJ, and I said how do you know, and she said well, I've received emails, you know, being threatened, that, that was um, that he was going to kidnap .

Okie Dokey, so at this point, a person might say.. you mean that you left JJ with Kay at the airport, and then Kay AFTER that time said she was going to kidnap JJ through emails, and threatened etc.

Normal person here would immediately say? MOO, if I was of the ilk to protect JJ/my friend *cough*.. "oh my gosh Lori, how did you get JJ back to successfully hide him from Kay? Is JJ ok? Are you ok?"

I'm no lawyer, but I see nothing MG has done here as prosecutable or conspiratorial, because everything on this source says someone has to have had intent and knowledge:

Accomplices, Accessories, Aiders, and Abettors

#1 term most repeated? intentional.

#2 term most repeated? agree, as in "two or more people who agree together".

More at link

 

[DI_Isokawa]

Who else could have profited financially from Chad and Lori's schemes? There were 3 life insurances involved (Charles', Tammy's and BB's), a possible inheritance (Tylee's after her father Joe Ryan), the children' SS money and the money Lori stole from Charles in January. That was all limited to a small group. If this was part of a wider conspiracy, surely Lori would have been bailed out by those with more money than Chad.

Oh, I don't think others profited from the schemes. Far from it. The estimated income for the pair (after the non-arrival of the $1 M insurance) doesn't match the estimated expenditures in my back of the envelope calculations. Lori in particular burned through most or all of the stolen cash before she went back to Charles. Chad had little visible means of support until Tammy's insurance money came in.

It doesn't take a conspiracy for support to be given. All it takes are people with assets or influence and sympathy for Chad's mission to establish the Church of the Firstborn on property bought in FLDS country. They don't even have to be formal members of an organization, just "fellow travelers." While Charles's insurance money was in play, Lori was an asset to those sympathizers. After the million bucks was no longer in play, and the attempt to replace it with BB's insurance failed, not so much. Chad had fans and probably followers; Lori did not.

I also don't think that a single set of motives was at work during the whole of calendar 2019. I think the theological motive was primary up to the shooting of Charles. Then there was the attempt to salvage the mission by trying to kill BB for his insurance. I think the murder of Tylee during this period was retribution for somehow interfering in the mission, as indicated by the way her body was treated, and the murder of JJ was because he became too much to handle after Tylee was gone, again as indicated by the way his body was treated.

When it became clear that there wasn't going to be a million dollars to establish the Church of the Firstborn, all that was left was selfishness and lust: kill Tammy for her insurance and go on the run for as long as the money lasted.

 

[Forever Young]

I'm no lawyer, but I see nothing MG has done here as prosecutable or conspiratorial, because everything on this source says someone has to have had intent and knowledge:

Accomplices, Accessories, Aiders, and Abettors

#1 term most repeated? intentional.

#2 term most repeated? agree, as in "two or more people who agree together".

More at link

In addition to Lori's felony charges of altering, concealing or destroying evidence are the misdemeanor charges of "resisting or obstructing officers, a solicitation to commit a crime, and contempt of court".

IMO and I am not a lawyer, but when she called MG she was soliciting MG to "commit a crime" by lying about the whereabouts of JJ.

That tells me that when MG complied with Lori's request, MG committed a crime.

MG had both intent (to lie for Lori) and knowledge (police were looking for JJ).

I think this is why some commentators think that it was not smart on MG's part NOT to arrange an immunity deal with police before speaking to them.

I do not necessarily think that MG will be charged with anything, but I do recall LE commenting that the diversion caused by LV saying that JJ was with her friend, and having to track down that friend, put the investigation days behind and bought time for LV and CD to leave the state.

 

[CSIDreamer]

In addition to Lori's felony charges of altering, concealing or destroying evidence are the misdemeanor charges of "resisting or obstructing officers, a solicitation to commit a crime, and contempt of court".

IMO and I am not a lawyer, but when she called MG she was soliciting MG to "commit a crime" by lying about the whereabouts of JJ.

That tells me that when MG complied with Lori's request, MG committed a crime.

MG had both intent (to lie for Lori) and knowledge (police were looking for JJ).

I think this is why some commentators think that it was not smart on MG's part NOT to arrange an immunity deal with police before speaking to them.

I do not necessarily think that MG will be charged with anything, but I do recall LE commenting that the diversion caused by LV saying that JJ was with her friend, and having to track down that friend, put the investigation days behind and bought time for LV and CD to leave the state.






MG did have "intent"

Far as I can tell, there was no known crime at that time. What intent are you referring to? Jmo

 

[indicolite22]

Oh, I don't think others profited from the schemes. Far from it. The estimated income for the pair (after the non-arrival of the $1 M insurance) doesn't match the estimated expenditures in my back of the envelope calculations. Lori in particular burned through most or all of the stolen cash before she went back to Charles. Chad had little visible means of support until Tammy's insurance money came in.

It doesn't take a conspiracy for support to be given. All it takes are people with assets or influence and sympathy for Chad's mission to establish the Church of the Firstborn on property bought in FLDS country. They don't even have to be formal members of an organization, just "fellow travelers." While Charles's insurance money was in play, Lori was an asset to those sympathizers. After the million bucks was no longer in play, and the attempt to replace it with BB's insurance failed, not so much. Chad had fans and probably followers; Lori did not.

I also don't think that a single set of motives was at work during the whole of calendar 2019. I think the theological motive was primary up to the shooting of Charles. Then there was the attempt to salvage the mission by trying to kill BB for his insurance. I think the murder of Tylee during this period was retribution for somehow interfering in the mission, as indicated by the way her body was treated, and the murder of JJ was because he became too much to handle after Tylee was gone, again as indicated by the way his body was treated.

When it became clear that there wasn't going to be a million dollars to establish the Church of the Firstborn, all that was left was selfishness and lust: kill Tammy for her insurance and go on the run for as long as the money lasted.

Interesting theory. IMO people with assets and influence weren't necessary for Lori and Chad's plan to be completed. If there had been wealthy backers, chances are that Lori and Chad would have tried to extract money from them, too. Some were expecting for CP to help Chad bail out Lori. I believe that other participants (if there were any) were the 144k crowd familiar with the doctrine, but kept in the dark about the insurance schemes and murders. No way was Lori going to invest Charles' insurance money into some land in Idaho. Perhaps she was going to pay off Alex with some of it, but she was far more likely to spend it all on herself in Hawaii. Tylee was killed almost a month before BB was attacked. I think the kids were simply in the way of their plans (at least two more murders), plus Lori gained financially from their deaths. MBP asked for a divorce in May, which was before Charles was killed. MBP would probably have shared part of BB's insurance payout with Alex, Lori and Chad.

 

[indicolite22]

Far as I can tell, there was no known crime at that time. What intent are you referring to? Jmo

Solicitation was about Lori asking MG to lie to the police.

 

[Forever Young]

<snipped> I also don't think that a single set of motives was at work during the whole of calendar 2019. I think the theological motive was primary up to the shooting of Charles. Then there was the attempt to salvage the mission by trying to kill BB for his insurance. I think the murder of Tylee during this period was retribution for somehow interfering in the mission, as indicated by the way her body was treated, and the murder of JJ was because he became too much to handle after Tylee was gone, again as indicated by the way his body was treated.

I agree that when you cut to the chase, it really was all about the money, and the elimination of witnesses to the murders. The religious stuff just muddies the water.

Tylee knew all about the circumstances surrounding CV's murder. Probably knew it was a set up. It doesn't seem like she was ever allowed to meet Chad. I wonder if she had threatened to tell him all about her dad and CV? Maybe she just wanted out of the situation and was ready to walk. She had been so isolated from her friends and family. I'm sure she had about had enough of it.

JJ was murdered following his last day of school where he was upset and telling teachers that his daddy was not dead - because he had never been told before. Did he say anything about Tylee being gone now, too? Where else did he have to turn?

 

[Monger]

In addition to Lori's felony charges of altering, concealing or destroying evidence are the misdemeanor charges of "resisting or obstructing officers, a solicitation to commit a crime, and contempt of court".

IMO and I am not a lawyer, but when she called MG she was soliciting MG to "commit a crime" by lying about the whereabouts of JJ.

That tells me that when MG complied with Lori's request, MG committed a crime.

MG had both intent (to lie for Lori) and knowledge (police were looking for JJ).

I think this is why some commentators think that it was not smart on MG's part NOT to arrange an immunity deal with police before speaking to them.

I do not necessarily think that MG will be charged with anything, but I do recall LE commenting that the diversion caused by LV saying that JJ was with her friend, and having to track down that friend, put the investigation days behind and bought time for LV and CD to leave the state.

Gosh I’m trying to remember, but I think MG ran the risk of an obstruction charge, or hindering an investigation. I can’t recall. It was definitely something because in the Preliminary JP hammered the question as to whether or not prosecution offered MG a deal for testimony and she said no. I don’t think it was solicitation (for MG) though.

ETA: Link. It starts at 22 minutes and has to do with being offered a deal because she lied to police.

 

[887sMtreme]

I think the ones doing the psychoanalyzing just need to let us know who is actually a psychologist and get verified. That would be so useful here. Otherwise, it's like me expounding on training elephants lol.

I like the $$ trail. JMO

Me too. That’s often where criminals get tripped up. Look at all those murderous mob bosses who got sent up the river for tax evasion.

I am troubled by the casual references to schizophrenia, psychopathy and sociopathy by people here who may not understand how the former can be successfully treated and how the latter two are not even recognized as official diagnoses. Not that suppositions along these lines will invalidate our discussions here, but they may skew our understanding our relationships outside this community.

 

[887sMtreme]

DBM

 

[DI_Isokawa]

Interesting theory. IMO people with assets and influence weren't necessary for Lori and Chad's plan to be completed. If there had been wealthy backers, chances are that Lori and Chad would have tried to extract money from them, too. Some were expecting for CP to help Chad bail out Lori. I believe that other participants (if there were any) were the 144k crowd familiar with the doctrine, but kept in the dark about the insurance schemes and murders. No way was Lori going to invest Charles' insurance money into some land in Idaho. Perhaps she was going to pay off Alex with some of it, but she was far more likely to spend it all on herself in Hawaii. Tylee was killed almost a month before BB was attacked. I think the kids were simply in the way of their plans (at least two more murders), plus Lori gained financially from their deaths. MBP asked for a divorce in May, which was before Charles was killed. MBP would probably have shared part of BB's insurance payout with Alex, Lori and Chad.

Excellent summary of the venality theory, which I acknowledge is at this juncture just as plausible as the theology theory. The terms of our debate should now be clear, all we need to do is wait for the evidence to come in

 

[887sMtreme]

Snipped for focus

Normal person here would immediately say? MOO, if I was of the ilk to protect JJ/my friend *cough*.. "oh my gosh Lori, how did you get JJ back to successfully hide him from Kay? Is JJ ok? Are you ok?"

Not to mention the thing about breast cancer. So weird, so easy to check. Lori was off the rails at that point. JMO

 

[indicolite22]

Gosh I’m trying to remember, but I think MG ran the risk of an obstruction charge, or hindering an investigation. I can’t recall. It was definitely something because in the Preliminary JP hammered the question as to whether or not prosecution offered MG a deal for testimony and she said no. I don’t think it was solicitation (for MG) though.

By saying that JJ had been reunited with Lori, MG put the ball in her court, so the police were going back to Lori either way.

 

[indicolite22]

Snipped for focus

Not to mention the thing about breast cancer. So weird, so easy to check. Lori was off the rails at that point. JMO

Easy to check for Kay? MG knew that Lori made it up.

 

[Monger]

By saying that JJ had been reunited with Lori, MG put the ball in her court, so the police were going back to Lori either way.

I added a link with the time stamp above. No, I don’t think they will ever go after MG now but it came up and it came up because she lied to the police. I’m glad she wasn’t offered anything because that would only serve the defense at this point!

 

[squareandrabbet]

In addition to Lori's felony charges of altering, concealing or destroying evidence are the misdemeanor charges of "resisting or obstructing officers, a solicitation to commit a crime, and contempt of court".

IMO and I am not a lawyer, but when she called MG she was soliciting MG to "commit a crime" by lying about the whereabouts of JJ.

That tells me that when MG complied with Lori's request, MG committed a crime.

MG had both intent (to lie for Lori) and knowledge (police were looking for JJ).

I think this is why some commentators think that it was not smart on MG's part NOT to arrange an immunity deal with police before speaking to them.

I do not necessarily think that MG will be charged with anything, but I do recall LE commenting that the diversion caused by LV saying that JJ was with her friend, and having to track down that friend, put the investigation days behind and bought time for LV and CD to leave the state.

There doesn't seem to be anything so far in my links (below), about what the target of the solicitation is responsible for doing or not doing. IMO, it seems as if "criminal solicitation" is a one-way street; the complaint goes to the record and guilt of the importuner; i.e. Lori.

We can't liken it to solicitation of prostitution, as prostitution can indeed nab both the patron and the prostitute under the same charge; because they have equal potential culpability in "who propositioned whom", and this always devolves, as a million cop shows have shown us, into "he said/she said":

Solicitation

Solicitation - FindLaw

Solicitation Charge Explained - criminal

From the latter:

"Solicitation is the act of persuading or soliciting another individual or entity to perform or participate in an activity that is typically criminal, illegal, and unlawful in nature. "

To me, the above definition only encompasses one-way. Unless someone is going to argue in court that MG was in fact soliciting Lori to lie about JJ's whereabouts, I don't see how this is a mutual crime, because the above links don't show anything redounding to the solicitee, when they are being asked to commit a crime that they in fact did not wind up committing.

If people are thinking that one quickly-retracted lie qualifies MG on the same criminal level as if she were planning a burglary with Lori or going to be Lori's accomplice, I am afraid they are doomed to be disappointed, because I don't see how anyone can say that MG knew Lori's goal in asking her this question was to hide evidence of a murder.

IANAL myself (though we do have some here); but if someone's going to charge you with being an accomplice to, say, a bank robbery; nothing I've read has said the accomplice can be an unaware dupe of the fact that a robbery is taking place, and still wind up getting charged. Both sides/all parties involved, be they active or passive, have to be knowledgeable of the intent to commit a crime.

 

[887sMtreme]

Easy to check for Kay? MG knew that Lori made it up.

I just meant it’s odd to make such a distressing claim to someone close enough to entrust with your adopted child. Such a lie would result in the need for a long string of lies to maintain it, plus physical changes due to treatment, etc. Lori should have known Kay — or anyone else in her orbit — would learn soon enough that it wasn’t true. It’s a clue to how off the wall Lori was at that point. Do we know from Kay that Lori made this claim, or is MG the only source? Sorry, I don’t recall if there is evidence one way or the other.

 

[indicolite22]

I just meant it’s odd to make such a distressing claim to someone close enough to entrust with your adopted child. Such a lie would result in the need for a long string of lies to maintain it, plus physical changes due to treatment, etc. Lori should have known Kay — or anyone else in her orbit — would learn soon enough that it wasn’t true. It’s a clue to how off the wall Lori was at that point. Do we know from Kay that Lori made this claim, or is MG the only source? Sorry, I don’t recall if there is evidence one way or the other.

As far as we know, Lori had no contact with Kay who lives in Louisiana. Lori told MG that she gave JJ to Kay who accepted him because of the lie that Lori had cancer.

 

[Spartygirl]

She didn't know they were missing.

Correct-- and she was told by LVD that JJ was going/had gone to live with Kay and Larry.