Found Deceased ID - Joshua Vallow, 7, & Tylee Ryan, 16, Rexburg, Sept 2019 *Arrests* #55

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wenwe4 said:
I find the whole Cox family (LVD & niece Melanie included) a bit strange in that they do not value owning property, furnishings, stability, etc. It seems that many of them are just ready to up and move with a suitcase at any given moment. Maybe this was a "bug out" mentality that they all grew up with given the years of troubles Lori's family had with the IRS and other agencies threatening to take their home. I have encountered individuals who are like this but it seems to be more prevalent within this entire family.
Click to expand...

Yes, and we read enough to see that they liked "big showy houses" . A lot of money spending but lots of debt.

Wonder how Lori thinks about all this now, living in a cell?
No children to love and think about.
No spouse to visit.
I keep thinking, even she must be tired of reading scripture after all this time.

I think i joined websleuths just about one year ago.... all the crazy buildup in Hawaii and all....
And now, sitting in that cell... hopefully just waiting to be moved to the "big house"
 
:waiting:

Neither Chad nor Lori are there, they both waived their right to attend

We are live at LIVE: Hearing regarding Daybell prosecutor happening Wednesday morning - East Idaho News

ETA's

They are about to play the recording (recording and transcript were entered... Atty Garrett Smith will be allowed is placed under oath to talk about circumstances and to listen to recording to verify it's accuracy)

He doesn't remember if he told folks that it would be recorded.
He recorded Summer with attys and LE (same recording as all was one continuous recording
He did not modify or edit recording
Prior to giving to Mr. Means, he contacted state bar and sought counsel on a couple of things 1)what he needed to do to disclose it 2)Re legality/ethics of recording another atty
He gave to Mr. Means. He was concerned due to ethics and opinions 1977 ethics opinion that said "we aren't going to record each other"... there were 3 other opinions so therefore there were exceptions. One exception is to protect a client from exposure to perjury.
He was concerned during conversation, that he was bothered by it (Prior said were you worried about coersion.. he corrected to say bothered)
............. can't keep up, sorry
 
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What is a "Use immunity agreement" that he's referring to.. off to google

The difference between transactional and use immunity is that transactional immunity protects the witness from prosecution for the offense or offenses involved, whereas use immunity only protects the witness against the government's use of his or her immunized testimony in a prosecution of the witness

717. Transactional Immunity Distinguished

Clear as mud to me!
 

[URL='https://twitter.com/jlumfox10']Justin Lum @jlumfox10 8m
Prior refers to Means who now says Garrett Smith, attorney for Summer Shiflet and Zulema Pastenes has the recording and will be called on as a witness.Justin Lum @jlumfox10 10m[/URL]
Replying to @jlumfox10
Here we go. We are about to listen to the recording. Prior is about to play it via zoom.

Justin Lum @jlumfox10 12m
Prior wants to submit audio recording and transcript of Wood speaking to witnesses (Vallow's sister and sister-in-law) as exhibits.

Justin Lum @jlumfox10 14m
The prosecutor next to Wood is deputy prosecutor Troy Evans representing Wood against the motion to DQ him.
Justin Lum @jlumfox10 17m
Prior says it was Daybell's intention to not appear in this hearing. Means also says Vallow did not intend to appear today.

Justin Lum @jlumfox10 19m
LIVE NOW: Judge Steven Boyce, prosecutor Rob Wood, Mark Means representing Lori Vallow and John Prior representing Chad Daybell. Co-defendants not present.


Justin Lum @jlumfox10 13m
Smith represents Lori Vallow's sister and sister-in-law (widow of Alex Cox). He is now on the "stand."

Justin Lum @jlumfox10 13m
Smith says he doesn't know if he clearly advised Rob Wood he would be recording his conversation with his clients back in October.

Justin Lum @jlumfox10 12m
Smith confirms he has a recording of Wood speaking to Summer Shiflet and continuously into a conversation with Chandler Police at the department.

Justin Lum @jlumfox10 12m
Chandler PD is investigating the death of Lori Vallow's 4th husband Charles Vallow who was shot and killed on 7/11/19 by her brother Alex Cox who died on 12/12/19.

Justin Lum @jlumfox10 12m
Smith says he has not edited the recording in any way. It is a complete file of Wood's discussion with Shiflet and police interviewing her as well after.

Justin Lum @jlumfox10 12m
Smith gave the recording to Lori Vallow's attorney Mark Means, but not prosecutor Rob Wood.

Justin Lum @jlumfox10 11m
Smith says he contacted State Bar of AZ after the recording to find out what he needed to do to disclose it to another attorney.

Justin Lum @jlumfox10 10m
AZ's recording law stipulates it is a "one-party consent" state.

Justin Lum @jlumfox10 10m
Smith says during the conversation between Wood and Shiflet, he became concerned. He was bothered by it and then called Mark Means.
 
Lori Vallow ‘Went Over The Edge’ Before String of Unexplained Deaths in Family, Says Sister-In-Law

Wed, January 6, 2021, 9:59 AM EST

"I thought Lori was great, very loving," says her former sister-in-law, Annie Cushing, in PEOPLE's new issue. "But there was a tectonic shift in her, and she went over the edge." The case is also featured on Thursday's episode of PEOPLE (TV show).

Vallow's former father-in-law agrees. "I saw a change in 2018," Larry Woodcock tells PEOPLE. "It was ... just crazy. I couldn't believe that she was falling for it."
 
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Defense attorney hired Dr. James Davidson P.h.D to listen to the audio recording and create a written report of his conclusions on the content of the conversation. He is speaking about different effects that different interviewing techniques can have on witnesses like eliciting false confessions or testimony, or inaccurate information
 
Cool Cats said:
Lori Vallow ‘Went Over The Edge’ Before String of Unexplained Deaths in Family, Says Sister-In-Law

Wed, January 6, 2021, 9:59 AM EST

"I thought Lori was great, very loving," says her former sister-in-law, Annie Cushing, in PEOPLE's new issue. "But there was a tectonic shift in her, and she went over the edge." The case is also featured on Thursday's episode of PEOPLE (TV show).

Vallow's former father-in-law agrees. "I saw a change in 2018," Larry Woodcock tells PEOPLE. "It was ... just crazy. I couldn't believe that she was falling for it."
Click to expand...
Did they really call Larry Woodcock "former father-in-law?"
 
[URL='https://twitter.com/jlumfox10']Justin Lum [URL='https://twitter.com/jlumfox10']@jlumfox10 [/URL][/URL]54m
Smith says he was concerned about potential death penalty for Lori Vallow being discussed with Shiflet and Wood talking about Means' competency.

Justin Lum @jlumfox10 53m
FYI, John Prior is doing the questioning right now. Cross-exam with Smith will be interesting.

Justin Lum @jlumfox10 53m
Smith says in his 27 years practicing, he had never seen a introductory conversation like this and "buzzers went off in his head" regarding certain things Wood said.


Justin Lum@jlumfox10 52m
Smith says Madison County, ID prosecutor's office wanted to speak to Summer Shiflet, Zulema Pastenes, Melani Pawlowski (Vallow's niece) and her husband Ian.

Justin Lum @jlumfox10 50m
Prior asks Smith if he anticipated that Wood would talk to Shiflet for 18 minutes after introducing himself. Smith says Wood did not "forecast" the following conversation would take place.

Justin Lum @jlumfox10 50m
Prior and Smith now talking about law ethics.

Justin Lum @jlumfox10 46m
On potential conspiracy to commit murder charge for co-defendants Vallow/Daybell that Wood discussed to Shiftlet: Smith says his client was bothered because she loves her sister. Smith says it was made clear that prosecutors wanted info on Daybell.

Justin Lum @jlumfox10 46m
Again, no murder charges have been filed in deaths of JJ Vallow and Tylee Ryan (LV's kids) - found on Daybell property on 6/9/20.

Justin Lum @jlumfox10 46m
The reality of Zoom hearings: Smith has to answer a knock at his door.

Justin Lum @jlumfox10 47m
He is back.

Justin Lum @jlumfox10 46m
Time to hear this recording. Prior defers to Means to publish it.

Justin Lum @jlumfox10 46m
Recording: "We are going to be filing conspiracy to commit murder charges for both Chad and Lori," Wood to Shiflet.

Justin Lum @jlumfox10 46m
Wood: "We know this is not the same Lori everyone else knew... everyone we talk to who knew Lori before this - she was primary president, she made quilts for kids, she made everything fun, everyone loved her."

Justin Lum @jlumfox10 46m
Wood: "But something happened. I think Colby (LV's son) said it - 'the person inside that jail is not my mom.'"

Justin Lum @jlumfox10 46m
Shiftlet on Daybell: "I met him once. I went to a Preparing a People thing."

Justin Lum @jlumfox10 46m
Shiflet says Daybell called her to ask her about bail.

Justin Lum @jlumfox10 46m
Wood: "He is highly manipulative. I'm not going to say he's highly intelligent but you don't have to be highly intelligent to be manipulative."

Justin Lum @jlumfox10 46m
Wood: "This guy came in here and I'm not making excuses for anyone but he kind of blew up the situation. He did not care who died, who got hurt, he did not care at all."

Justin Lum @jlumfox10 47m
Wood: "Your sister truly believes that everything she has done has been done in righteousness."

Justin Lum @jlumfox10 46m
Wood: "Part of what we need to do is understand when you have a case like this, this case is - we need to understand the context of who these people are."

Justin Lum @jlumfox10 49m
Shiflet: "I was wondering if you would be able to tell me about what you know about Tylee and her death? Is there any progress on her autopsy?"

Justin Lum @jlumfox10 49m
Wood: "She is at FBI state of the art crime lab.... we may never know due to the destruction of that body."

Justin Lum @jlumfox10 49m
Shiflet: "I would have never dreamed that she would have hurt em'."

Justin Lum @jlumfox10 49m
Wood: "Our whole goal is just justice for these kids."

Justin Lum @jlumfox10 48m
Wood says Vallow was talking to Daybell about coming forward to the police about the children's whereabouts days before the remains were found.

Justin Lum @jlumfox10 49m
Wood says Daybell convinced her to not do so.

Justin Lum @jlumfox10 49m
Shiflet: "It hurts to think about her being in there (jail)."

Justin Lum @jlumfox10 49m
Wood tells Shiflet that Vallow's attorney has never done any meaningful criminal work. "He doesn't know what he's doing."

Justin Lum @jlumfox10 49m
On recording, Wood says Vallow will be appointed different counsel once further charges are filed and she will be convinced to talk.

Justin Lum @jlumfox10 51m
Shiflet: "I feel for her. I just have so much compassion towards her because I know it's something she wouldn't have done on her own... I'm very conflicted."

Justin Lum @jlumfox10 51m
DEATH PENALTY: Wood says he hopes prosecution doesn't have to ask for it. He has no desire to do it.

Justin Lum @jlumfox10 49m
Wood on going to Hawaii and seeing Vallow/Daybell back in January 2020: "She was very stoic. He looked like he was going to pee his pants. Because he's actually a wimpy person."

Justin Lum @jlumfox10 50m
Wood: "These ideas came from him (Daybell)."

Justin Lum @jlumfox10 51m
Shiflet: "His influence was there before she met him."

Justin Lum @jlumfox10 52m
Shiflet says it wasn't just the Daybell books. She says her sister also listened to podcasts done by Julie Rowe, an author who Daybell used to publish.

Justin Lum @jlumfox10 51m
You can hear Wood become emotional talking about the kids on recording as Shiflet gives him wristbands made in JJ and Tylee's memory.

Justin Lum @jlumfox10 51m
Recording ends.

Justin Lum @jlumfox10 51m
Prior asks Smith now if he believes Wood was trying to influence his client. Smith says this recording showed much more than a "meet and greet."

Justin Lum @jlumfox10 50m
Smith: "It just felt awkward and unprofessional."

Justin Lum @jlumfox10 47m
Prior argues that Wood invoking his religious beliefs is apart of influencing Shiflet who is also LDS.

Justin Lum @jlumfox10 46m
Prior: "What about calling a defendant in a case a wimpy person? Is that problematic?"

Justin Lum @jlumfox10 42m
Smith: "I had no idea that the conversation was going to go the direction that it went."

Justin Lum @jlumfox10 42m
Time for cross-examination. Deputy prosecutor Troy Evans will question Smith now.

Justin Lum @jlumfox10 41m
Evans: "If I'm getting on your client's safe... you can say this interview is over right? At no time during this meeting you didn't object to any questions right?"

Justin Lum @jlumfox10 46m
Smith says Shiflet wanted to give testimony and he didn't want to shut this down.

Justin Lum @jlumfox10 44m
Evans says it's pretty clear that Shiflet initiated ongoing conversation by asking about potential death penalty.
 
The more I listen, the more I'm thinking the old adage... there is no win or lose with attys, as they always make money off the case.

I'm listening to this and thinking bad for defenses.. yet good for attys for Lori and Chad.....and just ca-ching .. ca-ching.... ca-ching $$$$ for all this wasted fiasco. (reminds me of something else today)

This display is even more detrimental and influential to potential witnesses than existed before.

Prior keeps saying "taint witnesses"... jeez... this perhaps does more than anything before.

MOO
 
Dr Davidson is now going through the details of his report. One area covered so far is about the comments Wood made about Means’ ability (or inability) to handle this case. Dr Davidson mentions how Means was described as “not listening”, and he says when you (this case being Summer) have someone who has So much influence over what happens in a case, statements or comments like that can make a witness feel or think “this person should be disregarded”. Dr also says comments like this can make a witness question “who do I really listen to? Whose side should I be on? Who do I really want to try and speak to, since apparently the defense attorney for my sister is not with the program and can’t handle this case?” Then he further outlines how this can impact the testimony that the witness gives.

IMHO there is not much here and I doubt the ruling will be in favor of the Defense but Wood gave the defense a lot of room here to argue this with how he “questioned” or discussed with Summer. I’ve seen many cases where it seems like Defense witnesses may really be stretching to make something fit a story, but this defense expert is bringing up some elements of his comments that really, I think, could have impacted what Summer said. Or, even more, affect what she tells her sister in jail and then affect what, if any, level of cooperation she then gives to the State. I think there was some real errors in judgement here, but JMHO.
 
Dr Davidson now describes Wood inserting religion into their conversation. When Wood says “your sister truly believes that everything she’s done has been done in righteousness”. Wood invokes religion, likely already knows Summer is very religious, and injects the concept of righteousness into the story. He goes on to say the “ lds speak” remark is a tell to the witness that “I can speak this language” and letting her know that he speaks like she does and that is somehow relevant to the nature of their meeting and relationship. He says if you (the prosecutor in this case) bring up an extraneous piece of information, that has strong principles attached to it, that originally were not part of this discussion, now the witness can be lead to question “well what do I do with this? ....There seems to be an underlying expectation and I did not anticipate this.”
He then goes on to talk about how righteousness and that principle can affect what a witness says and how any mention of religion at all was far, far beyond a meet and greet/introductory interview.
 
Justin Lum @jlumfox10 43m
Evans is done with cross. Means has no questions for Smith. Back to Prior with questioning.

Justin Lum @jlumfox10 42m
Prior wants to make Smith available as a witness in the future. Now Means has a few questions.

Justin Lum @jlumfox10 59m
Evans is done with cross. Means has no questions for Smith. Back to Prior with questioning.

Justin Lum @jlumfox10 1h
Evans says it's pretty clear that Shiflet initiated ongoing conversation by asking about potential death penalty.

Justin Lum @jlumfox10 1h
Smith says Shiflet wanted to give testimony and he didn't want to shut this down.

Justin Lum @jlumfox10 1h
Evans: "If I'm getting on your client's safe... you can say this interview is over right? At no time during this meeting you didn't object to any questions right?"

Justin Lum @jlumfox10 1h
Time for cross-examination. Deputy prosecutor Troy Evans will question Smith now.

Justin Lum @jlumfox10 1h
Smith: "I had no idea that the conversation was going to go the direction that it went."

Justin Lum @jlumfox10 1h
Prior: "What about calling a defendant in a case a wimpy person? Is that problematic?"

Justin Lum @jlumfox10 1h
Prior argues that Wood invoking his religious beliefs is apart of influencing Shiflet who is also LDS.

Justin Lum @jlumfox10 1h
Smith: "It just felt awkward and unprofessional."

Justin Lum @jlumfox10 1h
Replying to @jlumfox10
Prior asks Smith now if he believes Wood was trying to influence his client. Smith says this recording showed much more than a "meet and greet."

Justin Lum @jlumfox10 1h
Smith: "It just felt awkward and unprofessional."

Justin Lum @jlumfox10 1h
Prior argues that Wood invoking his religious beliefs is apart of influencing Shiflet who is also LDS.

Justin Lum @jlumfox10 1h
Prior: "What about calling a defendant in a case a wimpy person? Is that problematic?"

Justin Lum @jlumfox10 1h
Smith: "I had no idea that the conversation was going to go the direction that it went."

Justin Lum @jlumfox10 1h
Time for cross-examination. Deputy prosecutor Troy Evans will question Smith now.

Justin Lum @jlumfox10 1h
Evans: "If I'm getting on your client's safe... you can say this interview is over right? At no time during this meeting, you didn't object to any questions right?"

Justin Lum @jlumfox10 1h
Smith says Shiflet wanted to give testimony and he didn't want to shut this down.

Justin Lum @jlumfox10 1h
Evans says it's pretty clear that Shiflet initiated ongoing conversation by asking about potential death penalty.

Justin Lum @jlumfox10 1h
Evans is done with cross. Means has no questions for Smith. Back to Prior with questioning.

Justin Lum @jlumfox10 1h
Prior wants to make Smith available as a witness in the future. Now Means has a few questions.

Justin Lum @jlumfox10 1h
Means: "Are you aware if Mr. Wood has spoken directly with any other person in this case?" Smith says he can probably name half the people Wood spoke to.

Justin Lum @jlumfox10 1h
Smith says he doesn't remember ever reaching out to Wood's office on behalf of his clients Shiflet and Pastenes. He does not know if Pastenes ever reached out before he represented her.

Justin Lum @jlumfox10 1h
Smith says Pastenes' approach has been to stay out of the limelight and keep her head down. Only reason she agreed to talk to the State is because they offered her immunity.


Justin Lum @jlumfox10 1h
Smith says the recorded call between Lori and her sister Summer was "gut wrenching."

Justin Lum @jlumfox10 1h
Prior to Smith: "This is a narrative that Mr. Wood presented to your client."

Justin Lum @jlumfox10 1h
Evans continues to object, saying all this has been covered through this hearing and there is a transcript.

Justin Lum @jlumfox10 1h
Smith's testimony is done for today.

Justin Lum @jlumfox10 1h
But he can be recalled later in the hearing.

Justin Lum @jlumfox10 1h
Next witness: Dr. James Davidson called on by Prior.

Justin Lum @jlumfox10 1h
Prior says Means hired Davidson as a forensic analyst in this case.

Justin Lum @jlumfox10 1h
Dr. Davidson was asked to review the recording and analyze the nature of the conversation.

Justin Lum @jlumfox10 1h
Dr. Davidson was asked to review the recording and analyze the nature of the conversation.

Justin Lum @jlumfox10 1h
Judge calls for a break.

Justin Lum @jlumfox10 52m
Court back in session. Prior will continue to question forensic expert witness Dr. Davidson. They will discuss his report on recording of Rob Wood and Summer Shiflet.

Justin Lum @jlumfox10 49m
Co-opting: Pulling a person into your view point according to Dr. Davidson.

Justin Lum @jlumfox10 37m
Dr. Davidson on Wood's comments to Shiflet about her sister Lori being a "great mom"... Davidson says there is confirmatory bias due to Wood making an evaluation to a witness before she has been interviewed.

Justin Lum @jlumfox10 26m
Dr. Davidson on Wood's statement, "Welcome to Chad Daybell"... He says there is "shaping of what people's roles are" or mutual activity bias, influencing a witness potentially.

Justin Lum @jlumfox10 20m
In Davidson's comments via his report, he says it's clear Wood is in control of the narrative.
 
Dr Davidson continues with an example he believes that demonstrates Summer felt she was faced with a dilemma. He believes her statements reveal that she is thinking things like is “how do I handle this? Who do I remain loyal to, my sister or those fighting for justice? What do I do now having heard the theory of the case and the information I heard from the prosecutor?”

He goes on to say “there is no reason a witness, whose information is try to be garnered, should be ever put in the position of having to have that kind of internal battle. They should just be asked what do they have to say NOT what do they have to decide to impact what they may say.”

details of all this, whether it manipulated her testimony or coerced her in some way, are clearly disputed but I think some things are just not refutable....this was much more than a simple meet and greet/introduction and it definitely revealed to a witness key details of their theory of the case.
 
This is all MOO but the thing that bothers me about this expert witness testimony is that the "best practices" he refers to are all described by him as interrogation methods that are used in other countries at the beginning of his testimony. I checked and the Reid method is not outlawed in any countries including the US. While everyone wishes that they are engaging in best practices at all moment of their lives that is often not the case. You would think that he would compare it more to normal practice in the US. Wood's behavior is not ideal and questionable, and so is the behavior of Smith by recording this conversation and allowing it to continue if he was so bothered by it. I think it will be very interesting to see what the judge decides.
 
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