Found Deceased ID - Joshua Vallow, 7, & Tylee Ryan, 17, Rexburg, Sept 2019 #5

[Trask]

Justin Lum Fox 10 on Twitter

Holy toledo, that should turn some heads. Looking forward to the story.

 

[diggndeeperstill]

Case of 2 missing kids grows to include deaths, cult rumors

Kay Woodcock said Lori acted strangely when she told the family about Charles’ death, not mentioning the cause. A relative had to search Charles’ name online to find out he had been shot.

“We knew it was a murder, we knew Charles’ death wasn’t a justifiable homicide,” Kay Woodcock said. “It was like they set him up.”

After the death, Kay and Larry Woodcock said they had a harder time reaching JJ. The once-frequent calls dwindled and grew short. The last one, in August, lasted just 36 seconds and seemed scripted, they said.

Church spokesman Eric Hawkins declined to comment, saying the case doesn't involve the faith.

 

[utahobserver]

Holy toledo, that should turn some heads. Looking forward to the story.

Holy Toledo, indeed!

 

[Teche]

So many initials; it’s alphabet soup.

 

[katikaboom]

Can I post a blogger that seems to belong to Melani's new husband, or is that a violation?

 

[Rockyboy]

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quite eye opening. Lots of places to hide.

In Idaho you are suppose to have a building permit for one, but these anti-government religious preppers never get one. They build them in rural areas and nobody ever knows. Once the6 are built there is literally nothing but a couple small pipes coming out of the ground that they hide with bushes.

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[BigAl16]

Justin Lum Fox 10 on Twitter

Shocker.

MOO

 

[Rockyboy]

Case of 2 missing kids grows to include deaths, cult rumors

Kay Woodcock said Lori acted strangely when she told the family about Charles’ death, not mentioning the cause. A relative had to search Charles’ name online to find out he had been shot.

“We knew it was a murder, we knew Charles’ death wasn’t a justifiable homicide,” Kay Woodcock said. “It was like they set him up.”

After the death, Kay and Larry Woodcock said they had a harder time reaching JJ. The once-frequent calls dwindled and grew short. The last one, in August, lasted just 36 seconds and seemed scripted, they said.

Church spokesman Eric Hawkins declined to comment, saying the case doesn't involve the faith.

This case has everything to do with the Church. Lori may well have went nuts and harmed her children regardless, but she would not have convinced people to support her without the church related cult stuff. Those people would have most likely had her committed rather than following her. This many people don’t all go insane all at once without an external factor and in this case it is completely their religion. MOO.

 

[jjenny]

Me too. Especially if they were masked, all in black and ran off across my back acres. My dogs would be let out straight away. When Tammy called for Chad, how long till he showed up, I wonder?

She hasn't said when and if Chad showed up, at least in her facebook post. My guess is, not very soon.

 

[NvrEndgStry]

This case has everything to do with the Church. Lori may well have went nuts and harmed her children regardless, but she would not have convinced people to support her without the church related cult stuff. Those people would have most likely had her committed rather than following her. This many people don’t all go insane all at once without an external factor and in this case it is completely their religion. MOO.

Exactly - the apologists are too far in to comprehend how bizarre this relatively new ideology is and how they own all the splinters. I’ve learned a lot from the more level headed discussions with the ExMo community.

 

[BigAl16]

This case has everything to do with the Church. Lori may well have went nuts and harmed her children regardless, but she would not have convinced people to support her without the church related cult stuff. Those people would have most likely had her committed rather than following her. This many people don’t all go insane all at once without an external factor and in this case it is completely their religion. MOO.

Mr Hawkins denies all kinds of things. A little plausible deniability is all that is required. Here, she's definitely well outside the official church position. How she got started down that route isn't pertinent in their mind.

 

[MrLogic]

The word cult has been used a lot in this case by the media and on WS posts but there has been little to no evidence provided showing there was an actual cult. The Idaho police even said as much in one of their statements.

Does anyone have any real evidence of either of them trying to run a cult or to acquire a cult-like following?

It is clear they both held uncommon beliefs but running a cult seems to be a huge stretch.

 

[NvrEndgStry]

The word cult has been used a lot in this case by the media and on WS posts but there has been little to no evidence provided showing there was an actual cult. The Idaho police even said as much in one of their statements.

Does anyone have any real evidence of either of them trying to run a cult or to acquire a cult-like following?

It is clear they both held uncommon beliefs but running a cult seems to be a huge stretch.

The definition of a cult is veneration of people or things. So, do they venerate? Then it is a cult.

 

[fred&edna]

They started with aspects of their religion but cult seems a better fit for these particular people. I still can't comprehend the following of that "church" that can't be mentioned at WS. JMO

 

[Trask]

The word cult has been used a lot in this case by the media and on WS posts but there has been little to no evidence provided showing there was an actual cult. The Idaho police even said as much in one of their statements.

Does anyone have any real evidence of either of them trying to run a cult or to acquire a cult-like following?

It is clear they both held uncommon beliefs but running a cult seems to be a huge stretch.

The family has not said they are trying to run a cult or acquire a following, only that Lori became involved with a cult.

 

[BigAl16]

The word cult has been used a lot in this case by the media and on WS posts but there has been little to no evidence provided showing there was an actual cult. The Idaho police even said as much in one of their statements.

Does anyone have any real evidence of either of them trying to run a cult or to acquire a cult-like following?

It is clear they both held uncommon beliefs but running a cult seems to be a huge stretch.

What some organization or group being a cult means is tricky.

He're the first paragraph in wikipedia:

In modern English, a cult is a social group that is defined by its unusual religious, spiritual, or philosophical beliefs, or by its common interest in a particular personality, object or goal. This sense of the term is controversial and it has divergent definitions both in popular culture and academia and it has also been an ongoing source of contention among scholars across several fields of study. It is usually considered pejorative.

Cult - Wikipedia
*****

By that definition most if not all religions meet the definition. Mormonism for sure does and the addition of more beliefs or an increased common interest in "a particular personality, object or goal" makes the group (whether AVOW or just Chad, Lori, Melanie, et al) even more clearly one.

I've seen another more useful and stringent definition formulated by an academic. This had some very specific requirements and at least the evaluation I saw that looked at Mormonism thought they crossed the line, but it was a much closer call.

But IMO, even if you say Mormonism isn't a cult, any reasonable definition is going to encompass whatever it is that Lori and Chad are reported to be engaged in and believe, assuming all the things that have been reported are basically true.

 

[BigAl16]

The word cult has been used a lot in this case by the media and on WS posts but there has been little to no evidence provided showing there was an actual cult. The Idaho police even said as much in one of their statements.

Does anyone have any real evidence of either of them trying to run a cult or to acquire a cult-like following?

It is clear they both held uncommon beliefs but running a cult seems to be a huge stretch.

I'll add that I think you can have a cult with a handful of people and no real attempts to recruit more. I think it is the beliefs that define the cult. Not every cult thinks that every member is a missionary and are attempting to recruit as many cult members as they can. How many people were in the Manson Family? Was it a cult? I'd say yes. MOO

 

[BlkMtnGirl]

Is there any chance the grandmother becomes “sleuthable” because of this article? One of my statements from day one has been that it sure is interesting who speaks out about these missing kids and who doesn’t. Or I’ll go one step further it sure is interesting who speaks out about a death, Alex‘s death, and who doesn’t.

Snipped for focus. What article? I hope we can go that direction soon.

 

[UnknownSleuth]

The word cult has been used a lot in this case by the media and on WS posts but there has been little to no evidence provided showing there was an actual cult. The Idaho police even said as much in one of their statements.

Does anyone have any real evidence of either of them trying to run a cult or to acquire a cult-like following?

It is clear they both held uncommon beliefs but running a cult seems to be a huge stretch.

I'm not saying the cult definition definitely fits in this instance, but here's what often happens in general. The starting point for these extremist Mormon splinter groups that become cults/cult-like is usually "cottage meetings." Groups of like-minded people, many of whom first meet online nowadays, start getting together in person to discuss their beliefs. They often see the mother* church as either going astray or as not revealing as much to the general membership as they could/should--often attributing that to the membership being to weak to receive the full truth. In this case the common interest is end-of-times/prepping and there is a strong belief in visions and dreams. One person becomes accepted as a visionary and gains some followers. I have read that members of AVOW had local in-person meetings for those in the Rexburg area. I don't know who was there/how formal/or whether they were actually sponsored by AVOW or just meetings of like-minded people who first knew each other from there.

Interested readers could take a look at this four-page profile of the True and Living Church (TLC), an LDS splinter group that started in the 1990s (https://www.watchman.org/staff/jwalker/ProfileTLC.pdf). It shows the progression of a splinter cult, and you'll find that many of their end-times beliefs mirror things you've heard about from AVOW/PAP and their chosen visionaries (including the one with the crazy podcast episode many of us watched). This profile was written in 1999, and 20 years later people are still getting airtime for the same end-times bogeymen.

 

[diggndeeperstill]

Snipped for focus. What article? I hope we can go that direction soon.

Sorry, I accidentally left it out. It was this one. https://localnews8.com/news/2020/01/06/mom-of-missing-rexburg-children-fled-before-fbi-raid-neighbor-says/
Linking the quote I should’ve included.

Maybe I missed this earlier in the thread but this new info stands out. Curious to know whether this 3rd family member ( Melani? It says sister) left at the same time as Lori and Alex or remained living in the townhome next door. Also, if LE obtained search warrants for all 3 homes, they must have had more info than I assumed they did at the time.

"They just asked us to leave. They called me and said, 'Hey, we're going to be raiding their house here in ten minutes, would you get your family out because we don't want anything to happen,'" Bernard said.

Vallow and Cox were gone by the time the FBI searched the home. Bernard said the FBI searched Vallow's home, Cox's home and the home next to Vallow, who had a family connection as well.

"(Vallow's) sister moved in there, so that's why they raided her place," Bernard said.

Bernard hasn't seen the sister recently and isn't sure if she's still living there.


Mom of missing Rexburg children fled before FBI raid, neighbor says - Local News 8