Found Deceased ID - Joshua Vallow, 7, & Tylee Ryan, 17, Rexburg, Sept 2019 *mom arrested* #27

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But did AxC return with Lori and the podcast person from the airport?
Based on my memory so not a reliable source, the babysitter said Lori's brother showed up at Lori's apartment and the two of them left for the airport together. Lori returned from the airport with a woman who the babysitter remembers as being someone who did a podcast with Lori. I don't remember the babysitter saying anything about Alex (assuming he is "the brother" she met) returning.

IMO it wouldn't be odd that the babysitter did not see Alex return. He lived practically next door at the time so no reason for him to enter Lori's apartment in the evening, he probably went straight home.

On the other hand, I do read between the lines that maybe "the brother" could have been CD who was being driven to the airport since, as PicklePuck mentions, CD was on an airplane that day flying to Phoenix. I don't think any of us who have followed the case for more than a few minutes would doubt that Lori lied to the babysitter about the man who showed up being her brother. Or lied to the babysitter about anything. She lies. A lot.
 
Hmm, sounds like it was either ZP or MG then? They are both pretty tight with LV, CD and AC.

JMO.
There was some conjecture that it was MG when it was discussed earlier. There was an event just 2 or 3 days later in Rexburg that MG was likely to have attended or maybe even spoke at? I never wrapped my head around that because the babysitter said the woman who showed up had no luggage which makes no sense if you are going to some place cold for several days. I'll have to go back to the earlier thread and reread.
 
I don’t really believe Tylee thought she was going to BYU-I (at least not right away) mainly because she deliberated about going to Idaho at all and then decided to go for JJs sake. It seems improbable she had applied in advance to school in Rexburg when the move from Az didn’t seem to have been planned for very long. When would she have to have applied by? August of 2019 seems like too short of notice. MOO
JMO, but I agree with you. This was definitely a lie propigated by Lori. BYU Idaho isn't an open enrollment school, Tylee would have had to have gone through a pretty thorough application process to even been admitted. So she couldn't have gone there on just a whim.
 
Okay, I'm assuming it's still okay to post the FBI final photo of Tylee and JJ...
View attachment 237318

I've given this some thought, I think at first for many of us, the images brought up such strong feelings it was hard to really process what we saw/heard from the FBI post.

Another poster mentioned that this may have been a kind of "farewell" trip for Tylee, and I think that's a real possibility. Lori may even have told Tylee something like "your 17 now, and it's time you left the nest... took your next step, bla bla. She may have even guilted TR if she argued about leaving JJ, saying "we can no longer afford all these mouths to feed w/o CV's income, and your SSI death benefits ending next year"

That explains to me why she looked so bummed, and was clinging so tightly to JJ in the photo.... She was saying "Goodbye (maybe she thought temporarily)". She's looking dead into that picture. And, it's curious we only have one?? It's possible they took more that weren't released.. But that moment is important. If there ARE only the two pictures that's also very telling.... genuine sight seeing trips usually have tons.

As to the theory about another person being cut from the photo, I think it's more likely that Alex is speaking to someone just out of range of the camera. I think the FBI would have included the other person if there was one in that pic, if for no other reason then it could help the public identify the group. To me it does look like he's focusing on someone or something that we cannot see. Also JJ is focused intently on something or someone in that same general direction. JMO. To add to that theory, I went back and re-read the FBI's direct link, listen to how this part is worded: FBI, Rexburg Police Seek Images in Missing Children’s Case — FBI

Law enforcement is seeking photos and/or video that may have captured images of these persons and the vehicle, or images of crowds and other park visitors where these individuals may be present. The FBI has established a website for the public to upload photos and video at fbi.gov/rexburg.

That could be taken a few ways, IMO.

Last thing, I'm still not 100% that Tylee's remains are in Yellowstone... I know there is a search planned there, but as other posters here have mentioned, it's not the most ideal spot.... lot's of camera's/ visitors etc. Sadly, I do believe this trip spelled the end for Tylee though, very very sadly!!
MOO.
The pic is quite pixelated, like it was zoomed in. How far away was the photographer standing? Was Lori really bad at taking pics or maybe a stranger was? Maybe Lori is the one cut out of the pic?
 
I have been wondering, if the autopsy results come back and show foul play, how then will LE link Chad to her murder? It seems that if they already had any physical evidence, he would have been arrested. I can think of two ways right now he could be found responsible. One would be through the troves of digital evidence they have. The other, the statements he has made regarding her death. If it comes back she died by a poison or method that would have made her death violent or difficult—instead of peacefully passing in her sleep with some coughing before bed—then he can be considered complicit or responsible. Any other thoughts on how he could be linked to her death IF Tammy’s autopsy results indicate murder? MOO

Circumstantial evidence holds more weight in court than most people think. Hypothetically, if Tammy died by poison and the police were to arrest Chad for her murder, here is some of the evidence we already know about:

1. Chad was sleeping in the room where Tammy died and claims he didn't notice her fall out of bed and die on the floor until hours after her death. The Medical Examiner or an expert in the type of poison she died from can be put on the stand to detail what her death would have been like and the improbability of Chad sleeping through it or witnessing part of it and not calling 911.

2. Chad declined an autopsy. While the sheriff maintains the coroner had the final say, the specific conversation between Chad and the coroner has been kept under wraps. He may have said something that seemed convincing at the time that turns out to be very damning when her cause of death is discovered.

3. Chad told others that he had a vision of Tammy dying before it happened. While our main source of this (Julie R) is iffy for credibility, if she is going to be a witness or if he told other people the same thing, it could be used as evidence of premeditation.

4. Chad may have been having an affair with Lori before Tammy died. At the very least we know there was some shenanigans going on. Lori goes from reading his books to going to conferences where he is speaking, then she is doing podcasts with him. Then she is sending video of herself dancing. And then there's the whole fake email address in Charles' name set up to send Chad a forged letter from Charles, the purpose of which seems to be to give Chad an excuse to get away and come see Lori in Arizona... Something tells me that those emails are the tip of the iceberg in the digital trail between Lori and Chad prior to Tammy's death (and prior to Charles' death too).

5. Chad increased Tammy's life insurance before her death.

6. Tammy and Chad's entire financial picture, including their past bankruptcy can be presented as evidence. If it's true what Julie R said about Chad telling her he and Tammy were struggling financially, then that can be pointed out as a financial motive.

7. Chad moved out of the home he shared with Tammy the day after her memorial service. He supposedly claimed he was going to Hawaii to grieve and for business (editing a book). We don't know when he really left for HI. Hypothetically, if he lied about when he was going to Hawaii and why, and instead went to live with Lori then it's circumstantial evidence of a cover-up.

8. Chad immediately began removing all reminders of Tammy from his life after her death. He told his in-laws he would probably never visit. He told his kids he wanted to sell the house and close down the book publishing business he and Tammy had built since 2004. But even more telling is that he started to talk about this "new direction" before Tammy died, allegedly telling a stranger on an airplane on Sept 19th that he wasn't going to be writing those end-times books anymore.

9. Chad seemingly hid his marriage to Lori at first. When the police came to ask about JJ, he made it seem like he barely knew Lori and didn't know her phone number, while he was actually already married to her. He apparently told his kids that he met Lori in Hawaii while working on book or editing a book for someone and they spontaneously decided to marry while there. He told them about marrying Lori sometime after the wedding happened.

10. The letter Chad wrote to GRI/AVOW after Tammy's death. We can't see this entire letter but the rest could be revealing. What also may be revealing-- when did Chad first write it? His computer may have the answer.

Here's some ideas for evidence LE may have that we know nothing about:

1. How the poison was administered to Tammy. If it was slipped into something she ate or drank, there are a limited number of people who had access to her to do that.

2. Evidence showing knowledge of the poison used. There could be internet searches. It could have been something in one of Chad's books somewhere. Or there may be someone who taught a wilderness survival class and showed Chad which plants were poisonous and that person can testify that he had knowledge of the poison.

3. Evidence showing access to the poison or when it was obtained. Was it a household chemical that was found in the Daybell house? A plant known to grow in their yard? A prescription drug that he had access to?

4. The 911 call when Tammy died. This is being withheld as evidence in the case. I've wondered before-- did Chad possibly decline to do CPR? Did he show knowledge that Tammy had been dead for a couple hours at that point? He is not a doctor, so how would he know her time of death for certain unless he witnessed it happen?

5. Texts, emails and phone calls may reveal a lot more than we expect. Even deleted messages can be recovered sometimes.

6. The masked man with a gun encounter 10 days before her death. We know nothing indicating Chad had any part in that, but that doesn't mean LE has no evidence connecting him to it. Someone had to tell the shooter approximately when Tammy would be arriving home, where to stand, which direction to run off, the best place to park a getaway car or to get picked up by another accomplice, etc.

7. Where was Chad and what was he doing while he sent Tammy to visit her parents? The answer to this could be revealing.

8. Why did Chad fly to Mesa, AZ on Sept 19th, the same day Lori got a babysitter for JJ, told the babysitter she was going to the airport and then returned with a podcaster woman?

9. The storage CCTV. If that's Chad on video on certain days it could reveal some things.

10. LE Surveillance of Lori may be revealing of Chad's movements. Gilbert PD started surveiling Lori Nov 1st in the investigation into BB's attempted murder.

MOO.
 
I, for one, am on pins and needles waiting for sleuthing information on many family members that I know others have figured out but I haven't. So sleuth away, but keep your powder dry until it hits MSM.
BBM what does “keep your powder dry” mean? I have never heard that phrase before and now, here at WS, I’ve heard it twice. TIA

ETA I know what it means in the context of the sentence. I’m wondering where this phrase comes from.
 
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BBM what does “keep your powder dry” mean? I have never heard that phrase before and now, here at WS, I’ve heard it twice. TIA

ETA I know what it means in the context of the sentence. I’m wondering where this phrase comes from.

AFAIK it's to do with gunpowder. Not loading the weapon with the gunpowder too early or it gets damp and doesn't spark when you pull the trigger.
 
JMO, but I agree with you. This was definitely a lie propigated by Lori. BYU Idaho isn't an open enrollment school, Tylee would have had to have gone through a pretty thorough application process to even been admitted. So she couldn't have gone there on just a whim.

Well, to be fair, sometimes Lori told people that Tylee was going to BYU-HI. :rolleyes: All depended upon her audience.
 
1) Why was AxC going to AZ so much?
2) Perhaps TR thought she was going to AZ to help MBP move?
3) With the amount of stuff they brought with them from AZ how was it done?
AxC was a long haul trucker, did he have his own rig? Was it used for the move?
4) To find the missing I'm thinking you need to track all of the moving parts...
people, vehicles, all modes of travel, All devices; wired, wireless and not.
There was a lot of logistics going on between these people in a span of a couple months.
5) When AxC shot at BB, there were others in CV's vehicle.
6) Spouses don't have to testify, any chance that's a motive for some of the instant marriages?
7) Just because MBP publicly claimed she didn't know of the Children's whereabouts, doesn't mean that she didn't see them during all of this chaos.
8) Do the visits to the storage unit align with the attacks on BB and TD?
And then some of those other storage visits, what was going on with the Children on those dates, prior to them becoming missing?
9) If CD's torn veil allows him to see the future, then he foresaw the coming of LVD as he saw the demise of TD.
Wonder what he is seeing now? It looks to me like much can be scapegoated onto AxC who is deceased.
Despite LVD's callous disregard for her missing children, proving her guilt is another matter.
Defense can paint a picture where AxC was entrusted with bringing them places and they never got there.
Stuff like that could shed doubt on the extent of her actions and guilt.
Which is very concerning.
At the same time, if CD wriggles out of TD's death, then he faces few charges, right? Basically, obstructing justice.
Even if TD's death is ruled a homicide, you'd still have to prove who did it.
He also went to American Fork Utah with MBP at least once when she was arrested for trespassing so I forgot that time. These are all in the timeline.
 
i have gone back and forth on this photo...my first reaction was that it was ill-centered.... they could have cropped it much closer to include both Tylee and JJ as well as Alex. But I then accepted the idea that they cut out a 'stranger' to make it more specific to "our people... but your comment is so valid as well.... "I think it's more likely that Alex is speaking to someone just out of range of the camera. I think the FBI would have included the other person if there was one in that pic, if for no other reason then it could help the public identify the group". This is really true, given the way I "would think" the FBI would think... still makes me wonder why they cropped it the way they did.

or lack of son.... so confused.
I am wondering if Chad was with them perhaps or MBP? MOO.
 
I have had this same crazy suspicion for weeks. I keep focusing on Tylee's account the day CV is shot that she heard "a noise" as in singular, while Lori is still in the house. Maybe 45 minutes or an hour later the police arrive and Alex says he shot CV recently, I forget his wording but it was in the last 15 or 20 minutes. CV has been shot twice according to MSM reports. From the beginning I have wondered if LV shot CV, then drove away with the kids. AxC is left in the house to stage the scene, realizes CV isn't quite dead so has to shoot him again before calling 911.

MOO

And while I am on this train of thought it seems many of us here, myself included, have already mentally tried and convicted AxC of a lot of wrong doing. He surely was not a nice guy with Tylee's dad or with CV on that day in July but if LV told him her husbands were abusing her or the kids his actions might be... I was thinking noble but maybe that goes too far. My point is I keep putting him in the box marked "Evil" when really his story is told through LV, and she LIES about everything. AxC seems like an easy scapegoat for LV and for us sleuths. Surely he is more complicated than that.
I would not draw any conclusions about the circumstances surrounding that shooting before seeing more forensic evidence. Neither alexs or loris version make sense and neither match. We need the forensics to sort out fact from fiction.
 
I am of the opinion that IF the autopsy indicates foul play they should release results even if they can't yet make a connection to who dunnit. It REALLY turns the heat up on CD. No way his friends and family stick by him if that hits the news. And since CD isn't charged with anything LE hasn't started the prosecutorial clock ticking by publicly announcing somebody dunnit.

On the other hand, if the results are in and show TD died of natural causes why not get that out there so everyone moves on? I see no reason for LE to withhold the results.

MOO
They may be holding information back that only the killer would know hoping that he incriminates himself. Thats one possible reason for not releasing the information.
 
i keep questioning this. Even though I keep wanting to think that Charles was the "stable one" i do think he lived on the edge so wonder about any true financial assets, wealth. The businesses in Hawaii, the loans in Texas, always renting "big ticket" house rentals... I dunno... I think he was on the edge more than we want to think. But I have never questioned his love for JJ. Everything was different for him the last sad year of his life.
I think CV would also have ongoing commission receipts from his insurance business even after his death so his executor (KVW?) or his widow (LVD) would have to administer the estate. If there was no will, then I wonder who is dealing with that?
 
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Okay, I'm assuming it's still okay to post the FBI final photo of Tylee and JJ...
View attachment 237318

I've given this some thought, I think at first for many of us, the images brought up such strong feelings it was hard to really process what we saw/heard from the FBI post.

Another poster mentioned that this may have been a kind of "farewell" trip for Tylee, and I think that's a real possibility. Lori may even have told Tylee
You can get a lot from Spokeo, even without paying (then googling name and each state or addy). That's the one I usually use. Court PDF's (if there are any for the individual) are great too, and usually free.
JMO

like "your 17 now, and it's time you left the nest... took your next step, bla bla. She may have even guilted TR if she argued about leaving JJ, saying "we can no longer afford all these mouths to feed w/o CV's income, and your SSI death benefits ending next year"

That explains to me why she looked so bummed, and was clinging so tightly to JJ in the photo.... She was saying "Goodbye (maybe she thought temporarily)". She's looking dead into that picture. And, it's curious we only have one?? It's possible they took more that weren't released.. But that moment is important. If there ARE only the two pictures that's also very telling.... genuine sight seeing trips usually have tons.

As to the theory about another person being cut from the photo, I think it's more likely that Alex is speaking to someone just out of range of the camera. I think the FBI would have included the other person if there was one in that pic, if for no other reason then it could help the public identify the group. To me it does look like he's focusing on someone or something that we cannot see. Also JJ is focused intently on something or someone in that same general direction. JMO. To add to that theory, I went back and re-read the FBI's direct link, listen to how this part is worded: FBI, Rexburg Police Seek Images in Missing Children’s Case — FBI

Law enforcement is seeking photos and/or video that may have captured images of these persons and the vehicle, or images of crowds and other park visitors where these individuals may be present. The FBI has established a website for the public to upload photos and video at fbi.gov/rexburg.

That could be taken a few ways, IMO.

Last thing, I'm still not 100% that Tylee's remains are in Yellowstone... I know there is a search planned there, but as other posters here have mentioned, it's not the m...
dbm
 
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Circumstantial evidence holds more weight in court than most people think. Hypothetically, if Tammy died by poison and the police were to arrest Chad for her murder, here is some of the evidence we already know about:

1. Chad was sleeping in the room where Tammy died and claims he didn't notice her fall out of bed and die on the floor until hours after her death. The Medical Examiner or an expert in the type of poison she died from can be put on the stand to detail what her death would have been like and the improbability of Chad sleeping through it or witnessing part of it and not calling 911.

2. Chad declined an autopsy. While the sheriff maintains the coroner had the final say, the specific conversation between Chad and the coroner has been kept under wraps. He may have said something that seemed convincing at the time that turns out to be very damning when her cause of death is discovered.

3. Chad told others that he had a vision of Tammy dying before it happened. While our main source of this (Julie R) is iffy for credibility, if she is going to be a witness or if he told other people the same thing, it could be used as evidence of premeditation.

4. Chad may have been having an affair with Lori before Tammy died. At the very least we know there was some shenanigans going on. Lori goes from reading his books to going to conferences where he is speaking, then she is doing podcasts with him. Then she is sending video of herself dancing. And then there's the whole fake email address in Charles' name set up to send Chad a forged letter from Charles, the purpose of which seems to be to give Chad an excuse to get away and come see Lori in Arizona... Something tells me that those emails are the tip of the iceberg in the digital trail between Lori and Chad prior to Tammy's death (and prior to Charles' death too).

5. Chad increased Tammy's life insurance before her death.

6. Tammy and Chad's entire financial picture, including their past bankruptcy can be presented as evidence. If it's true what Julie R said about Chad telling her he and Tammy were struggling financially, then that can be pointed out as a financial motive.

7. Chad moved out of the home he shared with Tammy the day after her memorial service. He supposedly claimed he was going to Hawaii to grieve and for business (editing a book). We don't know when he really left for HI. Hypothetically, if he lied about when he was going to Hawaii and why, and instead went to live with Lori then it's circumstantial evidence of a cover-up.

8. Chad immediately began removing all reminders of Tammy from his life after her death. He told his in-laws he would probably never visit. He told his kids he wanted to sell the house and close down the book publishing business he and Tammy had built since 2004. But even more telling is that he started to talk about this "new direction" before Tammy died, allegedly telling a stranger on an airplane on Sept 19th that he wasn't going to be writing those end-times books anymore.

9. Chad seemingly hid his marriage to Lori at first. When the police came to ask about JJ, he made it seem like he barely knew Lori and didn't know her phone number, while he was actually already married to her. He apparently told his kids that he met Lori in Hawaii while working on book or editing a book for someone and they spontaneously decided to marry while there. He told them about marrying Lori sometime after the wedding happened.

10. The letter Chad wrote to GRI/AVOW after Tammy's death. We can't see this entire letter but the rest could be revealing. What also may be revealing-- when did Chad first write it? His computer may have the answer.

Here's some ideas for evidence LE may have that we know nothing about:

1. How the poison was administered to Tammy. If it was slipped into something she ate or drank, there are a limited number of people who had access to her to do that.

2. Evidence showing knowledge of the poison used. There could be internet searches. It could have been something in one of Chad's books somewhere. Or there may be someone who taught a wilderness survival class and showed Chad which plants were poisonous and that person can testify that he had knowledge of the poison.

3. Evidence showing access to the poison or when it was obtained. Was it a household chemical that was found in the Daybell house? A plant known to grow in their yard? A prescription drug that he had access to?

4. The 911 call when Tammy died. This is being withheld as evidence in the case. I've wondered before-- did Chad possibly decline to do CPR? Did he show knowledge that Tammy had been dead for a couple hours at that point? He is not a doctor, so how would he know her time of death for certain unless he witnessed it happen?

5. Texts, emails and phone calls may reveal a lot more than we expect. Even deleted messages can be recovered sometimes.

6. The masked man with a gun encounter 10 days before her death. We know nothing indicating Chad had any part in that, but that doesn't mean LE has no evidence connecting him to it. Someone had to tell the shooter approximately when Tammy would be arriving home, where to stand, which direction to run off, the best place to park a getaway car or to get picked up by another accomplice, etc.

7. Where was Chad and what was he doing while he sent Tammy to visit her parents? The answer to this could be revealing.

8. Why did Chad fly to Mesa, AZ on Sept 19th, the same day Lori got a babysitter for JJ, told the babysitter she was going to the airport and then returned with a podcaster woman?

9. The storage CCTV. If that's Chad on video on certain days it could reveal some things.

10. LE Surveillance of Lori may be revealing of Chad's movements. Gilbert PD started surveiling Lori Nov 1st in the investigation into BB's attempted murder.

MOO.
This is awesome - ty
 
I think that makes a lot of sense (tylee being told this was a special trip before starting school). And, I would think the park would be full of students feeling the same thing... makes me wonder if LE FBI specifically targeted the university asking them to encourage students/students families to come forward.
 
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I have some thoughts to share from the psychological perspective; I am by no means professional, I am only for a long time interested in psychology and read a lot of research on the topic, so this is JMO MOO:
Re Chad:
- as it was mentioned before by another author, it is very possible that Chad suffered an indiagnosted brain injury. There is a lot of (sometimes controversial) research on the topic, how brain injuries might affect person's behaviour, understanding of the world, cause hallucinations, anti social behavior, sociopathy etc. As it seems he has never been tested for this (see citation from his book posted before, that he did not tell anyone at the time), this very well might be the case.
Now taking into account the social surroundings (LDS church), which not only dissapproves of, but even approves of personal revelations, as it was many times confirmed by LDS followers in this thread (my knowledge of LDS is only from this forum though); even motivation to seek such revelations, talk to HS etc; moreover having revelations brings a person "to the top" of the church community (because "only the best" receive this blessing) - there is a big possibility for a person to become disillusioned and motivated to believe in his own fantasies, especially if supported by wife (Tammy, who believed him) and others (people on forums, book readers, etc), and not condemned (because it all fits into LDS doctrine).

Re Lori:
- given info about the childhood and parents that are anti-government (? don't know how much supported this claim is), it seems Lori's (and siblings') childhood was spent in kind of paranoic and sociopathic family with religious background. Lori is called "mystery" by high school friend, she was quiet and attending LDS seminary, which supports this claim. Her first marriage seems like a protest against this state of things, as well as numerous divorces that are not supported by any Christian religion as far as I know, so I believe LDS church also wouldn't support, so kind of making her a "bad sheep" according to her parents views. Given the good looks, personal attraction (source of NPD?), very feminine behavior - there is most probably a psychological conflict between not being a "good girl" according to family standards, striving (with time) to fix this, and personal interests to live a nice life with wealthy husband that adores her beauty and does what she wants, because she is very special.
AxC, AdC and other siblings were also raised in the same surroundings, and this should be taken into account. The agressive and sociopathic attitute towards external world might very well be caused by the same childhood. That's why AxC was so much eager to "defend" Lori, as well as niece and sister that are clearly on the side of the "family" no matter what; and parents we've heard no word from.
- now what comes to my attention is that she was called a perfect mom by CR, babysitter, as well as by many other witnesses; she was also adored by CV for a long time (according to many witnesses as well), so most probably that was the period of her striving to be righteous and good in all respects, and there was a trigger that brought her paranoia and sociopathic past to the surface, something like a seed planted into a prepared (by childhood and personal conflicts) soil. In this case most probably it would be meeting with Chad and other preppers, whose beliefs supported her hidden paranoia, anti-government and religious beliefs, as well as gave her a long needed "sense of life", where she is more important than others, she is the chosen one (NPD again).

Now, I remember reading in support documents on this thread that Doomsday beliefs that Chad and Lori share, seem to show that Doomsday will start with government actions which will lead to the war. So it seems that anti-government beliefs are tightly knit with the religious beliefs, and this all situation might be treated by most of Lori's "prepared" family and their doomsday cult as just another proof of their visions. That could also explain kids disappearance ("taking them into safe haven"), cutting kids from communication long before they were gone (Tylee stopped using social media etc, not saying where they are going even to Colby etc), not wanting to present them to the authorities, as well as strong support by immediate family (AxC, MBP, ZP etc). They do believe this is all a big government plot against them, and they are doing the right thing. Because the end of government is near.

It's interesting to look at the quote from CV and LV divorce court documents about Nick Shneider. I've googled who that could be. It came to my attention that there was one Nicholas Shneider that "on the basis of Kennedy speeches put him forward as model American and Christian in a way that all too obviously equates them". He wrote numerous books on religious views of president. Could that be that CV was named Nick Shneider as a government supporter who named government as a representative of Christian rule, which would make him an enemy of anti-government and Doomsday belief groups?

Add here their genuine belief that they are gods, and God leads them in all what's happening, and everything will be the way God promised ("to them")...

Just my thoughts
 
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