ID ID - Lonnie Jones, 13, Orofino, September 1951

[Ausgirl]

Cheers, scriptgirl. It's just a small maybe-lead, though. Lots of stuff to chase up, before I get too excited.

Liz, I was googling something completely unrelated and caught sight of 'carny killer' or something on one of the google blurbs, and remembered Lonnie, so I clicked it. From there, I just did searches of whatever names I found. Sheer dumb luck deserves a high five, there.

Yes, there are several similarities between Lonnie and the list of boys those cops were chasing Gautney for. From the little bits I've read (I need to read it all more closely,and then some!):

- hands tied behind backs
- found in or near water
- Lonnie's age or close to it
- went missing at fairs, or when fairs were in town


Plus:
- Gautney was known to carry concealed weapons (knives, railway spikes).
- He also was known to travel widely, and was suspected in crimes in California, so it's not a stretch he might have followed the fair circuit to Idaho.

As for how he might have abducted Lonnie...This is what made me really consider him a possible, despite having no car:

- One of his victims recounts how persuasive Guatney was prior to his sexual assault and, he believes, near-murder at Gautney's hands. "Freight Train" was a "likeable" guy, this is said quite often in the news reports and such.

- Gautney also made a habit of finding somewhere to stay - not under a bridge and the like, but somewhere semi-civilised, if he could. He had a real issue with being perceived as a "hobo", to the point where he was known for getting really mad if someone called him one. It's possible Gautney was staying in somebody's barn or a VA hospital (he used those a lot) or a charity place or such in the area. He wasn't so "psychotic" as he seemed in court, apparently, when he needed to schmooze for a place to sleep while the fair was town. It's not too unfeasible that he could have been staying somewhere close-by.

- Like so many paedophiles, he took opportunities where he found them. Perhaps he simply happened on Lonnie on the road. We don't know where Lonnie was for the six hours-ish before the boys gave him a ride and dropped him off -- it seems a bit much to imagine Gautney stalking him from the fairground, seeing as Lonnie spent time in that car. But maybe they'd already met at some point during the evening? Gautney was observed by police to stalk about 'looking for victims'. A boy on his own so late would be memorable. And also vulnerable to a 'friendly' face, if they happened to meet on the road.

I do think it's a slim chance this guy was involved. He wasn't seen as a suspect until 1979, 28 years later. But too, paedophiles aren't famed for starting their crimes in their old age, and Gautney was 29 years old in 1951. Maybe nobody prior to 1979 connected his previous crimes to each other or to him. And like his surviving victim said, talking about it wasn't easy back then. I have NO doubt there's many, many other victims of this man still alive out there, maybe still keeping their silence.

I'm just digging around for maybe a hit on his harming somebody or even being seen in Idaho somewhere around that general era. That'd be a real lead.

 

[STANDREID]

I remember hearing on the news that Guatney was in this area (near Peoria) shortly after my divorce. He was supposedly seen walking toward the town where my 3 sons were living at the time with my ex-wife. I tried to call her because they were 6-11 years old and often played alone in the creek behind their house. I was especially upset when I got no answer. They were safe, thank god, but my ex-wife said later that she actually saw him walking along the road when she was coming home from work. She said he just looked like a ragged old man.

And yes, they kept releasing him because he was unfit for trial. If I recall, his victims were in the 6-17 age range.

 

[Ausgirl]

That's damn scary, Stan. I quoted a cop earlier who is in that exact same location , also watching him walk toward that same town -- and said he seriously considered feeding Gautney to some pigs. At least the cops were well and truly on to him, at that time.

So, I found a pile of Lonnie's family. Most have passed away now, as far as parents, uncles and aunts go but maybe there's some cousins still alive who might remember something. There's a few in Wieppe, and some in Ellensburg, WA.

I'm not sure about the protocol for pasting detailed information on living relatives, so I won't - could someone please let me know? Kline, I can pm you with what I have if that's better.

I'm sure it's probably ok to say that the paper got Lonnie's mother's name wrong. It's Elna Jones Marner, not Eleanor Manor! She had Lonnie pretty young, which may explain why his name is Jones and he was living his grandparents.

Lonnie, his grandparents and mother and (I presume ???) stepfather and maybe step brother (who also died fairly young, at only 20) are all buried in Weippe cemetery.

 

[kline]

Yes please PM me with the leads,especially the Weippe contingent.
It woulld certainly be nice if they were willing to share some background info.
Given your permission I would like to give a local detective the name of your Carny Killer...I would be very surprised if theyve heard of him(I sure hadnt!)
I would be most interested to know where he was in September of 1951.
Nice job on the research!

 

[kline]

Cheers, scriptgirl. It's just a small maybe-lead, though. Lots of stuff to chase up, before I get too excited.

Liz, I was googling something completely unrelated and caught sight of 'carny killer' or something on one of the google blurbs, and remembered Lonnie, so I clicked it. From there, I just did searches of whatever names I found. Sheer dumb luck deserves a high five, there.

Yes, there are several similarities between Lonnie and the list of boys those cops were chasing Gautney for. From the little bits I've read (I need to read it all more closely,and then some!):

- hands tied behind backs
- found in or near water
- Lonnie's age or close to it
- went missing at fairs, or when fairs were in town


Plus:
- Gautney was known to carry concealed weapons (knives, railway spikes).
- He also was known to travel widely, and was suspected in crimes in California, so it's not a stretch he might have followed the fair circuit to Idaho.

As for how he might have abducted Lonnie...This is what made me really consider him a possible, despite having no car:

- One of his victims recounts how persuasive Guatney was prior to his sexual assault and, he believes, near-murder at Gautney's hands. "Freight Train" was a "likeable" guy, this is said quite often in the news reports and such.

- Gautney also made a habit of finding somewhere to stay - not under a bridge and the like, but somewhere semi-civilised, if he could. He had a real issue with being perceived as a "hobo", to the point where he was known for getting really mad if someone called him one. It's possible Gautney was staying in somebody's barn or a VA hospital (he used those a lot) or a charity place or such in the area. He wasn't so "psychotic" as he seemed in court, apparently, when he needed to schmooze for a place to sleep while the fair was town. It's not too unfeasible that he could have been staying somewhere close-by.

- Like so many paedophiles, he took opportunities where he found them. Perhaps he simply happened on Lonnie on the road. We don't know where Lonnie was for the six hours-ish before the boys gave him a ride and dropped him off -- it seems a bit much to imagine Gautney stalking him from the fairground, seeing as Lonnie spent time in that car. But maybe they'd already met at some point during the evening? Gautney was observed by police to stalk about 'looking for victims'. A boy on his own so late would be memorable. And also vulnerable to a 'friendly' face, if they happened to meet on the road.

I do think it's a slim chance this guy was involved. He wasn't seen as a suspect until 1979, 28 years later. But too, paedophiles aren't famed for starting their crimes in their old age, and Gautney was 29 years old in 1951. Maybe nobody prior to 1979 connected his previous crimes to each other or to him. And like his surviving victim said, talking about it wasn't easy back then. I have NO doubt there's many, many other victims of this man still alive out there, maybe still keeping their silence.

I'm just digging around for maybe a hit on his harming somebody or even being seen in Idaho somewhere around that general era. That'd be a real lead.

There is a rail line that runs the length of the valley,for many years it was used to transport Lumber I dont know if it handled freight or passenger trains back in the 50's quite possibly.I can find out.
Ive wondered if Lonnie was upset when the boys picked him up was merely because he realized he was stuck down in the valley that late with no way home or if it was something that happened during those missing hours such as someone making improper advances towards him which certainly be enough to shake up a 12 year old boy in 1951.
If someone was watching him and saw him get picked up its only seven miles to Greer from Orofino.
Of course I dont know how he would know the boys were only taking him that far then dropping him off.

 

[Ausgirl]

Kline - check your mail! That's about all I could come up with so far (I soooo need some sleep, researching keeps me up at nights!) I think there's maybe a couple people on that list who'd recall Lonnie and the area well enough to be of help.

Poor little tyke.

And yeah, the question of how he'd find Lonnie out there is a good one. But then, he found other kids and abducted 'em somehow. It'd be awesome if those two 'boys' in the car were still around and willing to talk about that night. Something just seems amiss here (aside from the murder...) - I mean, Lonnie lived there and knew how very far it was home from the fair (I looked up the map- it was a long way!).

They said they dropped him at Greer bridge - is that the one I can see on googlemaps, right near a bunch of houses just past the end of a totally winding road? That road must have been hell to drive on in winter!

It made sense looking at that map that the boys who picked him up would come around Orofino way to get to Kamiah - then they didn't have to drive that sidewinder of a road on the other fork. I can understand why they didn't drive Lonnie home. But to leave him out there all alone in the night? They must wear that on their consciences. Terrible sadness, all round.

Kline, think you could you somehow point me to where he was found on the googlemap of the area, please? I'd like to get an idea of the distances, ease of access, etc. I think taking a look at how far the site was from any rail yards would be cool, also.

Oh -- and yes! Please do pass on that name to the police out there. It's a slim chance but still, his crimes do fit. At least it'd be good to rule one possible killer out, if it turns out "Freight Train" wasn't anywhere near there in '51.

 

[kline]

Yes,that winding road is the Greer Grade it is very steep and it is a beast in the winter.
Its been widened and improved in some spots since 1951 Ims ure it was awful back then.(Beautiful view of the canyon though when you get up high enough)
I thought I knew where lonnie was found(it had been pointed out by several folks over the years)However after reading the newspaper article it sounds like Lonnie was basicly dumped off the highway over the bank in a place where the road was very close to the river so now im unsure.
Anyway its supposed to be four miles east of Orofino on the way to Greer according to the account I found.
So his killer took his body back towards orofino after abusing and killing him God Knows where.

 

[scriptgirl]

Not to hijack the thread, but how are you unfit for trial? I mean, cops knew Gautney was off-couldn't they just commit him to an asylum?

 

[Ausgirl]

There has to be records of the weather up there at the time of the murder. Little details like that help to give a clear picture of the scene. Also, there ought to be records of when the fair opened and closed that day. I'll see what I can find.

Kline, since you're local - maybe the LE up there could help you find the exact location of his body? Has to be records at the office, somewhere and sixty years is a very long time for poor Lonnie to have no justice - must be somebody who cares about that, and maybe they'll be gracious enough to let you see some paperwork, especially if you're thinking of writing a book.

I have a friend who is genius at maps, I'm thinking of asking him to help out with one for Lonnie when/if he gets time, just so we can see who was where and when - having visuals really helps put things in perspective. Do you know where exactly on the upper road Lonnie lived?

scriptgirl -- after working on the Keddie case for over a year solid, almost, I am simply (and sadly) not surprised anymore at the kind of people the American justice system (and the one here, too!) lets walk free among decent folk.

Honestly, if they could get their heads out of their collective asses and DO something to actually protect people from dangerous, habitual criminals, the world in general would be a much safer place. Obvious, but true. But then -- if it's so obvious, why are there so many damned multiple-conviction killers, rapists and pedos walking free?

Don't get me started.

 

[kline]

Not to hijack the thread, but how are you unfit for trial? I mean, cops knew Gautney was off-couldn't they just commit him to an asylum?

yeah ussually 'unfit for trial' usually just means compo non mentis (sp?) in other words he's nuts and not able to participate in his own defense which usually means a trip to a State facilty for evaluation and or safe keeping for an indeterminate length of time.
Like whats happening to the Arizona Shooter right now.

 

[kline]

There has to be records of the weather up there at the time of the murder. Little details like that help to give a clear picture of the scene. Also, there ought to be records of when the fair opened and closed that day. I'll see what I can find.

Kline, since you're local - maybe the LE up there could help you find the exact location of his body? Has to be records at the office, somewhere and sixty years is a very long time for poor Lonnie to have no justice - must be somebody who cares about that, and maybe they'll be gracious enough to let you see some paperwork, especially if you're thinking of writing a book.

I have a friend who is genius at maps, I'm thinking of asking him to help out with one for Lonnie when/if he gets time, just so we can see who was where and when - having visuals really helps put things in perspective. Do you know where exactly on the upper road Lonnie lived?

scriptgirl -- after working on the Keddie case for over a year solid, almost, I am simply (and sadly) not surprised anymore at the kind of people the American justice system (and the one here, too!) lets walk free among decent folk.

Honestly, if they could get their heads out of their collective asses and DO something to actually protect people from dangerous, habitual criminals, the world in general would be a much safer place. Obvious, but true. But then -- if it's so obvious, why are there so many damned multiple-conviction killers, rapists and pedos walking free?

Don't get me started.

The weather for that week is something I can definitley find out.
As a rule September here is very Indian Summer like and pleasant though it can be well into the 90's and often is during Fair Weekend.
Your right I need to nail down the exact location Lonnie was dumped.
Like I said before the spot that had been pointed out to me was an area at the top of a rise with probably an acre of timber between HWY 12 and the River.(a house is there now.)
But reading the Newspaper account it seems the truckdriver was just going over about ten foot bank right at the edge of the HWY and saw Lonnie below by the River's edge so it had to be a spot were the HWY is right next to the river....which fits about the entire length of road between Orofino and Greer with the exception of the timbered spot at the rise that I described.
But the account said four miles east of town if thats exact it should be easy to spot.
IF its exact.
Ill see what I can do to nail it down. Its pretty crucial or at least could be.
I dont know if Lonnie Lived in Weippe or outside of it.
Weippe is a very small community today im sure it was smaller then.
Once again I cant tell you guys how much it means to me all the thought you are giving this.I appreciate it very much.

 

[kline]

Just going by Google map four miles puts the location almost exactly where I was originally told.
If you go to the satelite view and scroll along HWY 12 towards Greer from Orofino you will see a road called Deberton rd. that branches off the HWY.
Keep scrolling along the HWY until you see a subsatntial strip of timbered land between the HWY and the River.
You cant tell from the map but that is a rise approximately in the middle of that strip of ground is where I was told the body was found.
But as you can see if you stop by the HWY you cant even see the River there.
Though as soon as you pass that stretch the HWY is right next to the river again though thats a bit further then four miles.
Its hard to tell how exact that figure is or whether they were guestimating.
Obviously im going to have to try and get someone who knows to nail it down for me.

 

[scriptgirl]

like I said, if Guatney is unfit for trial, why not commit him to an asylum? And was he faking being unfit?
Also, if that driver saw Lonnie by the river, was Lonnie DUMPED there or was he PLACED there. Big difference.

 

[kline]

like I said, if Guatney is unfit for trial, why not commit him to an asylum? And was he faking being unfit?
Also, if that driver saw Lonnie by the river, was Lonnie DUMPED there or was he PLACED there. Big difference.

Your right.My money is on placed.
Along HWY 12 was not an expedient or safe place to dispose of the body.
And then he had to drive either one direction or the other not being able to help the chance of meeting someone going the other way who may remember seeing him and his vehicle....
If he simply wanted to rid himself of the body....hell ,take a look at the area on that Google satelite overview I mentioned even today, and look at all the options he had.

 

[Ausgirl]

It's a massive pity they didn't have satellite back then. But maybe somebody up there can still recall what, if any, building existed in the immediate area, and how far from the body they were.

Small places like that, people tend to know who all has what and where - I can recall the layout of farms nearby by home from when I was seven, eight years old.

 

[liz b.]

Be interesting to know if Gautney had a vehicle. Because if he didn't I don't think he killed Lonnie. I still find it odd that no one actually ever saw Lonnie at the fair,or at the movie, after his grandmother left him at the fair....

 

[kline]

It's a massive pity they didn't have satellite back then. But maybe somebody up there can still recall what, if any, building existed in the immediate area, and how far from the body they were.

Small places like that, people tend to know who all has what and where - I can recall the layout of farms nearby by home from when I was seven, eight years old.

There is a Home in that stretch of timber between the HWY and the river now,I seriously doubt it was there then.
Other then that there is really nothing in the imediate vicinty.

 

[kline]

Be interesting to know if Gautney had a vehicle. Because if he didn't I don't think he killed Lonnie. I still find it odd that no one actually ever saw Lonnie at the fair,or at the movie, after his grandmother left him at the fair....

Yeah thats one thing we can say for certain: the Killer had to have a vehicle.Given the logistics there is no other way.
Another reason I want the investigative notes is it should have field summaries of people they interviewed.
Anyone who saw him at the fair and when, that information should be there.
It would be nice to nail down his movements at least to a certain extent after he saw his Grandmother and put them in relation to a timeframe.

 

[scriptgirl]

Because if Lonnie fell, he would have impact injuries. Kline didn't you say the papers ran a pic of his dead body?
Also, upthread, I thought someone said they saw Lonnie after his Gran left. BUT, I wonder, WHO was interviewed that said they never saw Lonnie-I mean, was it consensus? If names were given in that article, they should be looked into. Also, Kline, is there a nearby jail, were there any recently released parolees, etc in that area?

 

[scriptgirl]

Also, was there any sense that Lonnie's body was "Staged"?