ID ID - Lonnie Jones, 13, Orofino, September 1951

[kline]

The killer wanted Lonnie to be found. Seems like they were thumbing their nose..
Was there any talk about any of Lonnie's family not being upright other than this "cousin"

I agree I think its obvious he wanted the body to be found...it would have been easier and far less risky to simply bury him.
Lonnie lived with his grandmother.
Ive been unable to find out much at all about the family or what they were like.

 

[scriptgirl]

Why did he live with his grandma-I don't think it was common at that point for kids to live with extended family like that.
But Kline, this is a small town-old people like to talk-wouldn't old folks remember lonnie or his family?

 

[momtolil]

I agree I think its obvious he wanted the body to be found...it would have been easier and far less risky to simply bury him.
Lonnie lived with his grandmother.
Ive been unable to find out much at all about the family or what they were like.

If he lived with his grandmother. Did they ever look at his parents or extended family as suspects? Other than death, it seems strange his parents were not around.

 

[scriptgirl]

Yeah it is weird. I remember my grandma telling me that back in the 50s, s60s kids of divorce were ostracized and frankly any kid coming from an untraditional living situation as Lonnie did-there would have been talk.

 

[kline]

Yeah it is weird. I remember my grandma telling me that back in the 50s, s60s kids of divorce were ostracized and frankly any kid coming from an untraditional living situation as Lonnie did-there would have been talk.

Yeah, your absolutely right.
From talk Ive heard from my mother most of the immediate rumors were about his extended family.
It seems the consensus amongst school kids back then was that Lonnie was 'silenced' for some reason and also there was a relative who supposedly had his car re-apolstered shortly after.
I have been unable to substantiate any of this and I personally doubt it.
Ive no doubt investigators heard the same stories.
Finding someone who can fill in his family background is one of my immediate goals.That would be a wonderful thing.

 

[momtolil]

In the last article posted byAusgirl it stated that Lonnie's mother wasn named Eleanor Manoer. She has most likely passed away by now but there is the off chance she is still alive. Or maybe she remarried and had other children along the way. possibly she could be researched. I'm sure has spoken about it over the years?? Has anyone looked into her?

Sorry, I love to read this stuff but I'm not the best researcher and dont have all the tools to look it all up.

 

[momtolil]

Yeah it is weird. I remember my grandma telling me that back in the 50s, s60s kids of divorce were ostracized and frankly any kid coming from an untraditional living situation as Lonnie did-there would have been talk.

The Pen State Jerry Sandusky craziness going on right now got me thinking about Lonnie...

All the experts are talking about how these pedifile/abusers chose their victims. They usually chose impressionable children from broken homes, single mothers with no father present. Sometimes a child that is an outcast because of their situation.

This all just made me think that the perp most likely knew Lonnie and his situation and figured him to be an easy mark.

Makes me wonder if the killer wasn't closer than we think.

 

[scriptgirl]

I feel in my gut it was a carny

 

[STANDREID]

She has most likely passed away by now but there is the off chance she is still alive.

Yes, I would never assume all the principles in a case less than 100 years old are dead. The last officer who was on the ground looking for Jack the Ripper didn't die until 1971. I believe a potential victim in the Leopold and Loeb case (1924) is still alive or at least was recently.

Edit: Armand Deutsch was a potential victim of L&L and he died in 2005 - still more than 81 years after the crime.

 

[kline]

I feel in my gut it was a carny

It is a distinct posibilty.

 

[kline]

The Pen State Jerry Sandusky craziness going on right now got me thinking about Lonnie...

All the experts are talking about how these pedifile/abusers chose their victims. They usually chose impressionable children from broken homes, single mothers with no father present. Sometimes a child that is an outcast because of their situation.

This all just made me think that the perp most likely knew Lonnie and his situation and figured him to be an easy mark.

Makes me wonder if the killer wasn't closer than we think.

Sadly its amazing how some things especially the banal nature of evil never change.

 

[scriptgirl]

It just popped into my head-what if the killer was a teacher or other authority figure Lonnie knew?
But at the same time, I think all disappearances or moves out of the area right after Lonnie's death need to be looked at.
On another note-why do you say armand was a prospective victim? why didn't they kill him?

 

[kline]

It just popped into my head-what if the killer was a teacher or other authority figure Lonnie knew?
But at the same time, I think all disappearances or moves out of the area right after Lonnie's death need to be looked at.
On another note-why do you say armand was a prospective victim? why didn't they kill him?

You know Ive toyed with the idea of writing about this case for years.
Ive always thought that if enough facts couldnt be pulled together for a completely factual account(my preference) it would certainly provide an intriguiging frame work for a partially fictional novel.(Think James Ellroy:Historical events woven with a few fictional characters.)
Thats often in the back of my mind when Im researching this.
Your remark about Teachers reminded me of when I was looking at the original Newspapers that carried accounts of the murder I saw a small article about this pretty little gal with glasses who had just finished college and was starting her very first Teachers Job that had just begun at the begining of September two weeks before the murder.
At Lonnie's school in that isolated little community up on the hill, Weippe.
Can you imagine what a creepshow that must have been?
Id love to talk to her.

 

[scriptgirl]

I think you need to track down Lonnie's family.

 

[Ausgirl]

Kline, I have this odd but useful habit of accidentally finding relevant information. Today's accident concerns William "Freight Train" Guatney, a hobo/carney serial killer who roamed about for 40 years or so, and is believed to be responsible for at least 14 murders of young boys, across several known states including Missouri and California, though most of his known crimes were in the Midwest. Idaho, then, is not off Guatney's map.

He was caught in 1979. In 1951, he would have been 29 years old. He is known to have tied victim's hands behind their backs. Most of his victims were found in or near railyards, and many were also found in or near water. One victim, however, was found 10 miles from a railyard.

I found a map of the rail system running through that area - do you know how far from the rail lines Lonnie was found?

Here's the first article I found.

According to this book,, written by one of the officers who finally caught him, Guatney was certified as mentally damaged and schizophrenic as far back as 1942.

He travelled the carney circuit from state to state, preferring to follow the warmer weather. Lonnie was killed in September - would it have been cold in Wieppe, at that time of year? Was 1951 unseasonally warm? It's close to the end of the cold season here in Upside-down Land, so over there it would be what? Mid-fall?

A woman who knew him said, "Wherever there was a show, we knew there'd be Bill."

Guatney is described by several people who knew him and had given him occasional accommodation as being 'likeable'. Another woman, whom he stayed with on occasion, said her kids just loved him. It isn't hard to see an outwardly affable man like that luring a boy Lonnie's age to go somewhere with him (addendum: in fact, further down this post you'll find a comment from a molestation victim of Guatney's who was Lonnie's age at the time, very interesting).

One thing I noticed about Guatney is that he used to like to be 'put up' somewhere when he was in town, at a charity place or somebody's home (he wasn't opposed to sleeping in barns, I'd suppose). He also liked to stay at VA hospitals, a fact which was mentioned in several articles.

He was also quite persuasive, if this article is genuine - Stutzman says he met Guatney in 1984. Surely, Freight Train was in custody, at that time?


This article suggests that Guatney somehow managed to go free and died a free man.

A forum post from a former cop suggests the same:

Another serial killer that kept alludeing us all across the country and when taken to trial would skinny out of it ( Who killed children) nick named "Freight Train". His name is William Guatney .

During our county fair ( he rode the rails and would show up at fairs) we got intel that he was seen in my county walking a county road in the direction of the Peoria County Fair and for all law enforcement to watch out for him. I went and had coffee ( cops gotta have coffee) and sat and thought about my daughter (who lived in Pekin where a boy was taken and killed by him) and the kids at the fair so I came up with a plan. Having lived in the country and by a pig farm I knew what pigs were capable of. I made a decision and started patrolling the country roads with the plan that if I found him and I couldn't make him attack me that I would just put a bullet in his head anyway and feed him to the pigs because there would be little left.

I didn't find William that night and to this day I can't tell you with total honesty if I would have followed through with that plan or not if I had come across him.

I almost feel sorry he -didn't- find William that day.....

And I just now found an article that said he went to court in '81 for the '79 charges, but the charges were dropped because "he wasn't fit to stand trial"??? :waitasec:

He wasn't "fit" to roam the country a free man, either. :furious:

Though his lawyer, in the comments here, says Guatney didn't kill anyone! Big surprise, there. I think the reader above him who was molested as a 12-year old by "Freight Train" is somewhat more believable.

Also, the fact that he was 'meant' to be in a VA hospital during one murder doesn't mean a lot - he was well known for taking off from hospitals weeks before he was supposed to. He took off from that hospital, too, and who knows how long it was until they had him logged as 'AWOL'.

Anyways, I thought this might be of interest- even if Guatney is proven not to have been in Idaho at the time of Lonnie's murder, it made me think of possibilities.

 

[kline]

Kline, I have this odd but useful habit of accidentally finding relevant information. Today's accident concerns William "Freight Train" Guatney, a hobo/carney serial killer who roamed about for 40 years or so, and is responsible for at least 14 murders - of young boys, across several known states including Missouri and California, though most of his known crimes were in the Midwest. Idaho, then, is not off Guatney's map.

He was caught in 1979. In 1951, he would have been 29 years old. He is known to have tied victim's hands behind their backs. Most of his victims were found in or near railyards, and many were also found in or near water. One victim, however, was found 10 miles from a railyard.

I found a map of the rail system running through that area - do you know how far from the rail lines Lonnie was found?

Here's the first article I found.

According to this book,, written by one of the officers who finally caught him, Guatney was certified as mentally damaged and schizophrenic as far back as 1942.

He travelled the carney circuit from state to state, preferring to follow the warmer weather. Lonnie was killed in September - would it have been cold in Wieppe, at that time of year? Was 1951 unseasonally warm? It's close to the end of the cold season here in Upside-down Land, so over there it would be what? Mid-fall?

A woman who knew him said, "Wherever there was a show, we knew there'd be Bill."

Guatney is described by several people who knew him and had given him occasional accommodation as being 'likeable'. Another woman, whom he stayed with on occasion, said her kids just loved him. It isn't hard to see an outwardly affable man like that luring a boy Lonnie's age to go somewhere with him (addendum: in fact, further down this post you'll find a comment from a molestation victim of Guatney's who was Lonnie's age at the time, very interesting).

One thing I noticed about Guatney is that he used to like to be 'put up' somewhere when he was in town, at a charity place or somebody's home (he wasn't opposed to sleeping in barns, I'd suppose). He also liked to stay at VA hospitals, a fact which was mentioned in several articles.

He was also quite persuasive, if this article is genuine - Stutzman says he met Guatney in 1984. Surely, Freight Train was in custody, at that time?


This article suggests that Guatney somehow managed to go free and died a free man.

A forum post from a former cop suggests the same:

Another serial killer that kept alludeing us all across the country and when taken to trial would skinny out of it ( Who killed children) nick named "Freight Train". His name is William Guatney .

During our county fair ( he rode the rails and would show up at fairs) we got intel that he was seen in my county walking a county road in the direction of the Peoria County Fair and for all law enforcement to watch out for him. I went and had coffee ( cops gotta have coffee) and sat and thought about my daughter (who lived in Pekin where a boy was taken and killed by him) and the kids at the fair so I came up with a plan. Having lived in the country and by a pig farm I knew what pigs were capable of. I made a decision and started patrolling the country roads with the plan that if I found him and I couldn't make him attack me that I would just put a bullet in his head anyway and feed him to the pigs because there would be little left.

I didn't find William that night and to this day I can't tell you with total honesty if I would have followed through with that plan or not if I had come across him.

I almost feel sorry he -didn't- find William that day.....

And I just now found an article that said he went to court in '81 for the '79 charges, but the charges were dropped because "he wasn't fit to stand trial"??? :waitasec:

He wasn't "fit" to roam the country a free man, either. :furious:

Though his lawyer, in the comments here, says Guatney didn't kill anyone! Big surprise, there. I think the reader above him who was molested as a 12-year old by "Freight Train" is somewhat more believable.

Anyways, I thought this might be of interest- even if Guatney is proven not to have been in Idaho at the time of Lonnie's murder, it made me think of possibilities.

Extremely tantalizing ! Thanks Ausgirl!
This definitely bears looking into further.
A serial killer who targets boys and used carnivals? Wow.

 

[kline]

I think you need to track down Lonnie's family.

If they are trackable I will find them.

 

[Ausgirl]

You're welcome, Kline. I perked at mention of a carny killer, but when I read that he tied victims' hands behind their backs and dumped the bodies in and around water, I felt maybe there -could- be a connection.

I'd love to know exactly how far Lonnie was from a rail line when found.

I changed the wording of part of my post from "is responsible" to "believed to be responsible for at least 14 murders" because he was actually never convicted of any of them, despite a whole posse of cops from a pile of states (including California) tracking him across the country for being a major POI in all those deaths.

Lord knows how many children he molested in 40 or more years of roaming the rails. Maybe somebody out there recalls him being in or near that part of Idaho? He was a loud and somewhat eccentric man who (as far as I can tell) liked to introduce himself by his whole name, so that could be a help to some in remembering him.

I want to read that book the investigating cop wrote! It's definitely on my must-get list now.

 

[scriptgirl]

Ausgirl, GREAT find! It does seem an easy fit...

 

[liz b.]

Kline, I have this odd but useful habit of accidentally finding relevant information. Today's accident concerns William "Freight Train" Guatney, a hobo/carney serial killer who roamed about for 40 years or so, and is believed to be responsible for at least 14 murders of young boys, across several known states including Missouri and California, though most of his known crimes were in the Midwest. Idaho, then, is not off Guatney's map.

He was caught in 1979. In 1951, he would have been 29 years old. He is known to have tied victim's hands behind their backs. Most of his victims were found in or near railyards, and many were also found in or near water. One victim, however, was found 10 miles from a railyard.

I found a map of the rail system running through that area - do you know how far from the rail lines Lonnie was found?

Here's the first article I found.

According to this book,, written by one of the officers who finally caught him, Guatney was certified as mentally damaged and schizophrenic as far back as 1942.

He travelled the carney circuit from state to state, preferring to follow the warmer weather. Lonnie was killed in September - would it have been cold in Wieppe, at that time of year? Was 1951 unseasonally warm? It's close to the end of the cold season here in Upside-down Land, so over there it would be what? Mid-fall?

A woman who knew him said, "Wherever there was a show, we knew there'd be Bill."

Guatney is described by several people who knew him and had given him occasional accommodation as being 'likeable'. Another woman, whom he stayed with on occasion, said her kids just loved him. It isn't hard to see an outwardly affable man like that luring a boy Lonnie's age to go somewhere with him (addendum: in fact, further down this post you'll find a comment from a molestation victim of Guatney's who was Lonnie's age at the time, very interesting).

One thing I noticed about Guatney is that he used to like to be 'put up' somewhere when he was in town, at a charity place or somebody's home (he wasn't opposed to sleeping in barns, I'd suppose). He also liked to stay at VA hospitals, a fact which was mentioned in several articles.

He was also quite persuasive, if this article is genuine - Stutzman says he met Guatney in 1984. Surely, Freight Train was in custody, at that time?


This article suggests that Guatney somehow managed to go free and died a free man.

A forum post from a former cop suggests the same:

Another serial killer that kept alludeing us all across the country and when taken to trial would skinny out of it ( Who killed children) nick named "Freight Train". His name is William Guatney .

During our county fair ( he rode the rails and would show up at fairs) we got intel that he was seen in my county walking a county road in the direction of the Peoria County Fair and for all law enforcement to watch out for him. I went and had coffee ( cops gotta have coffee) and sat and thought about my daughter (who lived in Pekin where a boy was taken and killed by him) and the kids at the fair so I came up with a plan. Having lived in the country and by a pig farm I knew what pigs were capable of. I made a decision and started patrolling the country roads with the plan that if I found him and I couldn't make him attack me that I would just put a bullet in his head anyway and feed him to the pigs because there would be little left.

I didn't find William that night and to this day I can't tell you with total honesty if I would have followed through with that plan or not if I had come across him.

I almost feel sorry he -didn't- find William that day.....

And I just now found an article that said he went to court in '81 for the '79 charges, but the charges were dropped because "he wasn't fit to stand trial"??? :waitasec:

He wasn't "fit" to roam the country a free man, either. :furious:

Though his lawyer, in the comments here, says Guatney didn't kill anyone! Big surprise, there. I think the reader above him who was molested as a 12-year old by "Freight Train" is somewhat more believable.

Also, the fact that he was 'meant' to be in a VA hospital during one murder doesn't mean a lot - he was well known for taking off from hospitals weeks before he was supposed to. He took off from that hospital, too, and who knows how long it was until they had him logged as 'AWOL'.

Anyways, I thought this might be of interest- even if Guatney is proven not to have been in Idaho at the time of Lonnie's murder, it made me think of possibilities.

Ausgirl,
Wow..there really do seem to be some similarities. Especially binding the hands behind his victims' backs... I wonder,though : how did he abduct Lonnie ? I wonder if he ever had any type of vehicle ? If not, I don't see how he could have came upon Lonnie,if we believe that Lonnie was actually let out of the teenagers vehicle as they stated... But,,this sounds like a great lead... MOO

ETA This is great sleuthing ! Can I ask where you were able to find this article ? TIA..