IDI and RDI, what do they agree upon?

[BBB167893]

Thats cheery. What creep said that?

That would be Ron Walker. And as for being a creep, you've obviously confused him with Lin Wood.

 

[BBB167893]

http://www.acandyrose.com/05312000larrykinglive.htm

THOMAS: My theory is quite simple: Whoever authored the ransom note killed the child, absent some great conspiracy, that they think this intruder came into the house.

At least there were some other people in the same camp trying to explain to the like of ST that the author of the RN isn't necessarily the killer.

THAT is something we all can agree on! Thus, the cross-fingerpointing defense problem!

 

[BBB167893]

ST gave up a position that actually could've solved the murder, and instead wrote a book.

I'm forced to agree. I understand the frustration (BOY, do I understand!) but I would not have given up. I'd have kept fighting.

 

[BBB167893]

Basically, the Ramsey's sued, the publisher settled out of court because it's cheaper to do it that way than disprove the allegations;

Not true. The loser often pays attorneys' fees and the Ramseys had the means to pay, too. Remember, truth trumps claims of defamation.

Your argument might have more merit, Fang, if not for the fact that Lin Wood has a habit of seeking settlements. BOESP is right.

 

[BBB167893]

Just a little comment. To a layperson it might not be obvious at all that JB was dead after an accidental head blow, since there were no visible injuries (as has been pointed out in this thread). Was she breathing after the blow? Did she have a pulse? I think a layperson would check those and a normal parent would of course call the ambulance.

I'm DAMN glad you brought that up! Assuming that they did check, there's a difference between someone who is knocked out (who would still have a discernable pulse and breathing) and someone in deep shock near death, whose pulse would be so weak and breathing so shallow that a layperson might miss them altogether.

It's times like this I'm grateful for being friends with an EMT, just in case any of you were wondering.

 

[BBB167893]

Funny. I thought she was pure evil from what I've read.

Speaking purely for myself, Fang, if I left you with that impression, that was not my intent. I never thought that.

That said, I'm not very big on the whole "this person says" bit. If I had a nickel for every time a killer was described as the ideal parent of family person, I could retire early.

Take me, for example. Could I kill someone? I'm ashamed to say it, but yes. But I'm a great guy! Ask anyone who isn't related to me!

 

[BBB167893]

Personally, I am convinced that the beauty queen pageantry participation, by this six year old, blond cutie and her millionaire parents encouraging her to do her best, have done more to warp the perception we have of this family than anything else. Make her parents working class, high school grads and sweethearts, struggling to get by, as the deceased enjoyed her activities as a Daisy Scout and the nation would have turned its lonely eyes on them, and wept with them.

You may be right.

 

[DeeDee249]

I'm DAMN glad you brought that up! Assuming that they did check, there's a difference between someone who is knocked out (who would still have a discernable pulse and breathing) and someone in deep shock near death, whose pulse would be so weak and breathing so shallow that a layperson might miss them altogether.

It's times like this I'm grateful for being friends with an EMT, just in case any of you were wondering.

Actually, that's why they probably hook people like this up to EEGs. They can determine if they are still alive by brain wave activity.

 

[WHITEFANG]

Your argument might have more merit, Fang, if not for the fact that Lin Wood has a habit of seeking settlements. BOESP is right.

I Don't get it. All other things being equal, you don't settle when you can win.

 

[BBB167893]

I Don't get it. All other things being equal, you don't settle when you can win.

True enough.

Not that it ties in with anything, Fang, but let us speak hypothetically now. If I were to tell you that I knew of someone who bragged about how much money they've made on this case, what would you say?

 

[WHITEFANG]

Super, appreciate the effort to address my request.

Didn't mean to humiliate or demean you. I hoped to expose fallacy. And, I agree with you. The dark side of human nature sucks (and it is easy for me to overlook it.)

If you would, try again to posit your theory by describing in the present tense-exactly-the moment by moment conscious thinking and feeling as Patsy experienced/thought/felt them (or the R, DeeDee) as she chose the method to simulate the execution and as she carried it out, "There is something that might work...I need more light...is that the sound of her straining... this is taking too long, damn what am I going to do? etc."

 

[WHITEFANG]

True enough.

Not that it ties in with anything, Fang, but let us speak hypothetically now. If I were to tell you that I knew of someone who bragged about how much money they've made on this case, what would you say?

I would say, no doubt about it. And in this context, it would still make more sense to take the case at least to the courthouse steps. The client has to give the okay (hypothetically) to the terms, too.

As the family sustained huge, enormous, obscene legal costs, they needed every dime from a favorable decision on a contingency fee arrangement.

I bet the Ramseys still have massive debts from their legal expenses. May be why the JonBenet Memorial Fund didn't thrive.

 

[WHITEFANG]

Actually, that's why they probably hook people like this up to EEGs. They can determine if they are still alive by brain wave activity.

Could you help me to understand what you believe she was thinking as she came to the conclusion that she was in all probability dead? Include, if you can, her thinking as to the application of the garrote in light of her belief that Joni was gone, ie., "I know this won't hurt her as I slip this around..."

 

[BBB167893]

Super, appreciate the effort to address my request.

Didn't mean to humiliate or demean you. I hoped to expose fallacy. And, I agree with you. The dark side of human nature sucks (and it is easy for me to overlook it.)

I figured you were a good guy, Fang.

If you would, try again to posit your theory by describing in the present tense-exactly-the moment by moment conscious thinking and feeling as Patsy experienced/thought/felt them (or the R, DeeDee) as she chose the method to simulate the execution and as she carried it out, "There is something that might work...I need more light...is that the sound of her straining... this is taking too long, damn what am I going to do? etc."

Well, this may not be what you're after, but here goes:

The Ramseys get home from the party at the Whites'. Burke asks for a bedtime snack. Patsy sees a bowl of pineapple on the kitchen counter and gives him some, telling him not to paw at it. Both children have some.
JOHN: "Come on, honey. Let's get you to bed. Be with you in a minute, son."
BURKE: "I'll wait for you there, Dad."
PATSY: "Just a quick check to see if I missed anything."
Patsy is now alone. She's doing her thing. John puts JonBenet in bed. They speak for a minute. Maybe something else. He goes down to the basement.
Patsy's catching her breath in the living room. John and Burke come up.
JOHN: Head on up to bed, son.
BURKE: "Okay, Dad."
The parents are alone.
JOHN: "Come on up to bed."
PATSY: "No, I'm not done yet."
JOHN: "You shouldn't take so much on yourself."
PATSY (irritated at him): "I have to. I do everything around here."
JOHN: "Sorry I mentioned it."
John goes upstairs. Soon, JonBenet is back down.
PATSY: "What do you want now, honey," with a little irritation in her voice.
JONBENET: "I did it again."
PATSY: "Oh, God. Come on."
Up to JonBenet's room.
PATSY: "I don't see anything."
JONBENET: "I didn't go to bed yet."
PATSY: "Can't you do anything I ask?"
JONBENET: "I'm sorry."
PATSY: "Get in there."
Into the bathroom. Patsy cleans her up.
PATSY: "Here, don't tell you're father."
JONBENET: "You and Daddy tell me secrets."
PATSY: "Secrets?"
JONBENET: "Yeah, Daddy tells me to keep secrets."
PATSY: "Like what?"
JONBENET (suddenly sullen): "It wouldn't be a secret then."
PATSY (now more irritated): "Fine."
Patsy becomes rough.
JONBENET: "OW! Mommy, that hurts! Daddy's nicer."
PATSY: "I didn't think your father cleaned you up."
JONBENET: "He doesn't. He calls it our special game."
PATSY's head snaps up. Their eyes meet.
JONBENET (whispering): "I told the secret."
PATSY (in a rage): "YOU ROTTEN LITTLE LIAR!!!"
JONBENET (almost in a panic): "I'm sorry, Mommy!"
PATSY: "I'll teach you a lesson you won't forget!"
JonBenet tries to run away, but her pants are still around her knees. She tries to pull them up, but trips. As she gets up, Patsy grabs her collar and begins to struggle with her. She MEANS to toss JonBenet onto the bed face-first and spank the daylights out of her. But during the fight, JonBenet takes a hard blow that cracks her skull.
Patsy sees JonBenet crumpled on the floor.
PATSY: "That won't work, you little faker. You're in big trouble."
She picks JonBenet up and lays her on the bed. But she's so limp.
PATSY: "I said, cut it out."
Nothing. JonBenet is in shock and doesn't seem to be breathing.
PATSY (anger replaced by worry): "JonBenet Patricia Ramsey, you cut that out right now. Baby? (Now panicked): BABY?! PLEASE say something! Oh, GOD, I didn't mean to! No, oh, God, no! Not my baby!"
John comes in.
JOHN: "What the hell is going on in here?!"
Patsy turns. Her eyes are full of tears and hate. She blitzes him.
PATSY: "YOU *******!"
He grabs her wrists. "Are you crazy?!" He sees JonBenet. "What did you do?!"
PATSY: "Me?! You couldn't get it from me, so you took her! And I believed YOU!"
JOHN: "You stupid, crazy *****! I have to save her!"
PATSY: "It's too late now! She's dead!"
JOHN: "NO! That's impossible!" (Keep in mind, John's lost Beth.)
PATSY: "I'll see you rot for this!"
JOHN: "How?! You killed her."
Patsy fights until she's fought-out. She collapses to the floor, sobbing.
JOHN: "Honey..."
PATSY: "We can't leave her like this. She's so beautiful. like an angel. She deserves better."
JOHN: "I can't believe this. Burke...what will happen to him?"
PATSY: "He can't ever know about this. He can't think we killed JonBenet."
JOHN: "How do we make this right?"
PATSY: "I thought you were the big expert!"
JOHN: "Shut up! I'm trying to think."
PATSY: "What kind of person would do this?"
JOHN: "The kind we saw in the Navy. Damn, I wish I could remember who they were."
And it just spirals from there. Putting anything they can think of into a possible scenario, they stage a scene. But Patsy's dramatic flair puts it over the top. John, wracked with guilt, knows she hangs by a hair, so he says nothing. He also knows that the truth will put them in prison where the inmates will do horrible things to them...
PATSY: "What kind of knot do we use?"
JOHN: "Do it yourself."
Patsy ties a sloppy noose and sloppier wrist ties.
JOHN: "I can't even look at her like that."
They think about bundling her up to dump, but it's too risky. In the basement.
PATSY: "Wouldn't she have been messed with down there?"
JOHN: "Don't ask me to--"
PATSY: "You already DID! That's how we got into this mess."
JOHN: "I can't touch her like this." He uses the brush to avoid touching her privates. His fibers end up on her, having scuffed off his sleeve on her clothing when he pulls his arm back. "Can you write left-handed?"
PATSY: "Yeah, but--"
JOHN: "Come on."
John dictates part of the note, she writes. At this point, she's caught up in this. Her greatest pageant, her greatest adventure. It's exhilarating.

Fang, I have to ask: what is the purpose of this exercise?

 

[BBB167893]

I would say, no doubt about it. And in this context, it would still make more sense to take the case at least to the courthouse steps. The client has to give the okay (hypothetically) to the terms, too.

As the family sustained huge, enormous, obscene legal costs, they needed every dime from a favorable decision on a contingency fee arrangement.

That's kind of my point, Fang. Wood wasn't talking about how much money he made for them. He was talking about how much money he had made toward his personal finances. Now, I admit it's been a while since I cracked a law book, but last I knew, filing lawsuits for the purpose of enriching one's own personal finances is called barratry, and it grounds for having one's law license pulled.

I bet the Ramseys still have massive debts from their legal expenses. May be why the JonBenet Memorial Fund didn't thrive.

Judging from the available tax records, my guess is that "fund" was purely for their own use. Pretty despicable, any way you slice it.

 

[WHITEFANG]

And it just spirals from there. Putting anything they can think of into a possible scenario, they stage a scene. But Patsy's dramatic flair puts it over the top. John, wracked with guilt, knows she hangs by a hair, so he says nothing. He also knows that the truth will put them in prison where the inmates will do horrible things to them...
PATSY: "What kind of knot do we use?"
JOHN: "Do it yourself."
Patsy ties a sloppy noose and sloppier wrist ties.


What does she do next? She has made a noose and knots.




JOHN: "I can't even look at her like that."
They think about bundling her up to dump, but it's too risky. In the basement.
PATSY: "Wouldn't she have been messed with down there?"
JOHN: "Don't ask me to--"
PATSY: "You already DID! That's how we got into this mess."
JOHN: "I can't touch her like this." He uses the brush to avoid touching her privates. His fibers end up on her, having scuffed off his sleeve on her clothing when he pulls his arm back. "Can you write left-handed?"
PATSY: "Yeah, but--"

 

[BBB167893]

And it just spirals from there. Putting anything they can think of into a possible scenario, they stage a scene. But Patsy's dramatic flair puts it over the top. John, wracked with guilt, knows she hangs by a hair, so he says nothing. He also knows that the truth will put them in prison where the inmates will do horrible things to them...
PATSY: "What kind of knot do we use?"
JOHN: "Do it yourself."
Patsy ties a sloppy noose and sloppier wrist ties.


What does she do next? She has made a noose and knots.

I was getting to that. She most likely gave the noose a single, hard pull, maybe a few seconds. Once she saw how deeply it went in, and that it wasn't coming out, she most likely stopped. It's likely it wouldn't come out again because of JB's almost-nonexistant breathing. Her windpipe didn't expand enough to loosen it. The knot wouldn't allow it, either.

As for the other knots, they went over the wrists, as I said.

 

[WHITEFANG]

Super-- are you sure this is your very best effort on this assignment? Is this your best shot? Remember, the task is not to say what you know, but to become Patsy in real time and to "think out loud" (on this site) with us as you deal with this situation. Is this really your very best effort to describe what Patsy was thinking/feeling as she slipped the garrote around her neck?

What were her thoughts as she searched for something that would work? Was it cold down there? Was there plenty of light? Did her muscles get tense?

 

[BBB167893]

Super-- are you sure this is your very best effort on this assignment? Is this your best shot?

Sorry, Fang, but it's very late and I've had a lousy day. I'll give it another go when I'm more up for it.

Remember, the task is not to say what you know, but to become Patsy in real time and to "think out loud" (on this site) with us as you deal with this situation. Is this really your very best effort to describe what Patsy was thinking/feeling as she slipped the garrote around her neck?

What were her thoughts as she searched for something that would work? Was it cold down there? Was there plenty of light? Did her muscles get tense?

Ah, method acting. Now I get it.

 

[MurriFlower]

I figured you were a good guy, Fang.



Well, this may not be what you're after, but here goes:

The Ramseys get home from the party at the Whites'. Burke asks for a bedtime snack. Patsy sees a bowl of pineapple on the kitchen counter and gives him some, telling him not to paw at it. Both children have some.
JOHN: "Come on, honey. Let's get you to bed. Be with you in a minute, son."
BURKE: "I'll wait for you there, Dad."
PATSY: "Just a quick check to see if I missed anything."
Patsy is now alone. She's doing her thing. John puts JonBenet in bed. They speak for a minute. Maybe something else. He goes down to the basement.
Patsy's catching her breath in the living room. John and Burke come up.
JOHN: Head on up to bed, son.
BURKE: "Okay, Dad."
The parents are alone.
JOHN: "Come on up to bed."
PATSY: "No, I'm not done yet."
JOHN: "You shouldn't take so much on yourself."
PATSY (irritated at him): "I have to. I do everything around here."
JOHN: "Sorry I mentioned it."
John goes upstairs. Soon, JonBenet is back down.
PATSY: "What do you want now, honey," with a little irritation in her voice.
JONBENET: "I did it again."
PATSY: "Oh, God. Come on."
Up to JonBenet's room.
PATSY: "I don't see anything."
JONBENET: "I didn't go to bed yet."
PATSY: "Can't you do anything I ask?"
JONBENET: "I'm sorry."
PATSY: "Get in there."
Into the bathroom. Patsy cleans her up.
PATSY: "Here, don't tell you're father."
JONBENET: "You and Daddy tell me secrets."
PATSY: "Secrets?"
JONBENET: "Yeah, Daddy tells me to keep secrets."
PATSY: "Like what?"
JONBENET (suddenly sullen): "It wouldn't be a secret then."
PATSY (now more irritated): "Fine."
Patsy becomes rough.
JONBENET: "OW! Mommy, that hurts! Daddy's nicer."
PATSY: "I didn't think your father cleaned you up."
JONBENET: "He doesn't. He calls it our special game."
PATSY's head snaps up. Their eyes meet.
JONBENET (whispering): "I told the secret."
PATSY (in a rage): "YOU ROTTEN LITTLE LIAR!!!"
JONBENET (almost in a panic): "I'm sorry, Mommy!"
PATSY: "I'll teach you a lesson you won't forget!"
JonBenet tries to run away, but her pants are still around her knees. She tries to pull them up, but trips. As she gets up, Patsy grabs her collar and begins to struggle with her. She MEANS to toss JonBenet onto the bed face-first and spank the daylights out of her. But during the fight, JonBenet takes a hard blow that cracks her skull.
Patsy sees JonBenet crumpled on the floor.
PATSY: "That won't work, you little faker. You're in big trouble."
She picks JonBenet up and lays her on the bed. But she's so limp.
PATSY: "I said, cut it out."
Nothing. JonBenet is in shock and doesn't seem to be breathing.
PATSY (anger replaced by worry): "JonBenet Patricia Ramsey, you cut that out right now. Baby? (Now panicked): BABY?! PLEASE say something! Oh, GOD, I didn't mean to! No, oh, God, no! Not my baby!"
John comes in.
JOHN: "What the hell is going on in here?!"
Patsy turns. Her eyes are full of tears and hate. She blitzes him.
PATSY: "YOU *******!"
He grabs her wrists. "Are you crazy?!" He sees JonBenet. "What did you do?!"
PATSY: "Me?! You couldn't get it from me, so you took her! And I believed YOU!"
JOHN: "You stupid, crazy *****! I have to save her!"
PATSY: "It's too late now! She's dead!"
JOHN: "NO! That's impossible!" (Keep in mind, John's lost Beth.)
PATSY: "I'll see you rot for this!"
JOHN: "How?! You killed her."
Patsy fights until she's fought-out. She collapses to the floor, sobbing.
JOHN: "Honey..."
PATSY: "We can't leave her like this. She's so beautiful. like an angel. She deserves better."
JOHN: "I can't believe this. Burke...what will happen to him?"
PATSY: "He can't ever know about this. He can't think we killed JonBenet."
JOHN: "How do we make this right?"
PATSY: "I thought you were the big expert!"
JOHN: "Shut up! I'm trying to think."
PATSY: "What kind of person would do this?"
JOHN: "The kind we saw in the Navy. Damn, I wish I could remember who they were."
And it just spirals from there. Putting anything they can think of into a possible scenario, they stage a scene. But Patsy's dramatic flair puts it over the top. John, wracked with guilt, knows she hangs by a hair, so he says nothing. He also knows that the truth will put them in prison where the inmates will do horrible things to them...
PATSY: "What kind of knot do we use?"
JOHN: "Do it yourself."
Patsy ties a sloppy noose and sloppier wrist ties.
JOHN: "I can't even look at her like that."
They think about bundling her up to dump, but it's too risky. In the basement.
PATSY: "Wouldn't she have been messed with down there?"
JOHN: "Don't ask me to--"
PATSY: "You already DID! That's how we got into this mess."
JOHN: "I can't touch her like this." He uses the brush to avoid touching her privates. His fibers end up on her, having scuffed off his sleeve on her clothing when he pulls his arm back. "Can you write left-handed?"
PATSY: "Yeah, but--"
JOHN: "Come on."
John dictates part of the note, she writes. At this point, she's caught up in this. Her greatest pageant, her greatest adventure. It's exhilarating.

Fang, I have to ask: what is the purpose of this exercise?

I cannot believe you guys can make up this stuff, accusing two people, (one of them still alive) of murder and get away with it without being sued! Incredible!!!