IDI and RDI, what do they agree upon?

[BBB167893]

The problem there, fang, is that when deep shock sets in, it draws blood AWAY from the skin to better support the internals.

Yet, there should be some indication on the scalp of leaking blood.

The autopsy describes an extensive scalp hemorrhage, Fang. What more do you want?

Look, I realize this isn't the kind of answer you want, especially from me, but head wounds are EXTREMELY quirky. They're the most unpredictable kind of wound there is. There's no real explanation as yet for why one head wound does A and another does B.

 

[BBB167893]

If it was an accident and not planned that means they did love their daughter so I guess they would have been sane enough to CHECK if she's dead or not before putting a cord around her neck and pulling it!!!Or inserting a paintbrush in her vagina!Wouldn't you NEED to be sure?

Assuming that they had a chance to check before too much time had passed, that's no guarantee they would have found anything. It's hard enough to know where to look and what to look for when you're perfectly calm, much less in whatever emotional state they might have been in.

BOESP is right: we have to understand the difference between clinical death and what a layperson would think.

 

[BBB167893]

The so-called evidence against the Ramsey's sounds more like evidence a defence lawyer would use when defending an intruder than evidence a prosecutor would/COULD use against a Ramsey.Does this make sense?

I don't agree, but I understand what you mean.

 

[DeeDee249]

I figured you'd say that. Problem is, there's no evidence I'm aware of that those items were laundered along with that blanket.

The jacket couldn't have been. Patsy was wearing the jacket and the blanket was on her dead daughter. If Patsy pulled the blanket out of the dryer while WEARING that jacket, then of course....
This could only have happened after JB's death.
The crime photos from that morning show a bed with the bottom still made, no blanket on the bed, and no blanket could have been pulled off that bed without disturbing it. LE discussed this very thing with Patsy when they showed her the photo.

 

[BBB167893]

There is now enough evidence to indicate an intruder did it.

Not unless you can place someone there.

LE now acknowledges this, as evidenced by their willingness to test new people outside the family, and their unwillingness to cling to the old RDI lines.

ONE DA does not constitute LE. Far from it.

 

[BOESP]

...
Please show me an official report that states that those fibers are a match or that PR wrote the note.
JB was alive when strangled and sexually assaulted(it's confirmed by the autopsy report and ST),your only explanation is that PR thought she was dead when she did the staging.I am sorry,not good enough.

Sorry, I don't do free research for others. Websleuths has a great search engine. I just explained "consistent with" yesterday so that one, especially, shouldn't be hard to find.

 

[MurriFlower]

Sorry, I don't do free research for others. Websleuths has a great search engine. I just explained "consistent with" yesterday so that one, especially, shouldn't be hard to find.

Ok, well this fiber business is bogging us down, but as it is the basis upon which many people formed their RDI theory, I think it needs to be addressed.

If any of you are prepared to accept testimony over heresay, here are some quotes.

VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF
STEVEN THOMAS
September 21, 2001 9:07 a.m.

http://www.jonbenetindexguide.com/09212001Depo-SteveThomas.htm

Addressing my questioning of actual evidence being produced showing the results of fiber testing on the duct tape:

"14 Q. (BY MR. HOFFMAN) Well, you know
15 what, I'm just confusing the issue. I'm
16 going to drop that line of questioning and
17 just ask you, did you have occasion to
18 actually see the CBI report that indicated
19 that there was a likely match for Patsy's
20 blazer with the acrylic fiber found on the
21 duct tape?
22A. Not that I recall. Detective
23 Trujillo, who was in charge of all the
24 evidence and forensic testing in this case,
25 he and Wickman verbally offered that to the
159
1 rest of the detective team.
2 Q. All right. So you never
3 personally saw a report with that result or
4 that conclusion?
5 A. I'm relying on a fellow officer.
"

Now to the evidence about any of PR's clothing fibers found on JBR's clothes:

"4 Q. Yeah, when JonBenet Ramsey was
5 found she was wearing I don't know what other
6 word there is for it but panties and there
7 was a question as to whether or not there
8 were substances found in that panty area.
9 What I'm asking you is do you know if there
10 was ever any forensic evidence indicating that
11 any article of clothing that Patsy wore was
12 found as a particle in that panty area of
13 JonBenet?
14 A. No, I am unaware of any forensic
15 or fiber evidence from Patsy Ramsey's clothing
16 to the victim's under clothing or underwear.
17 Q. Do you know if there was any
18 forensic evidence of Patsy Ramsey's clothing
19 at all besides the duct tape area on
20 JonBenet?
21 A. As we sit here now, no, I don't
22 recollect any other fiber evidence, other than
23 what we have discussed linking the mother to
24 JonBenet.
"

Now, to the fibers found on the duct tape (four in all!), said to be consistent with PRs jacket.

"22 Q. There were no black fibers that
23 were found on the duct tape that were said
24 to be consistent with the fibers on Patsy
25 Ramsey's red and black jacket, were there?
252
1 A. It's my understanding that the
2 four fibers were red in color.
"

And as to whether these were actually from PR's jacket:

"10 Q. Were you aware of the fact that
11 Priscilla White owned an identical jacket,
12 that in fact Patsy Ramsey bought her jacket
13 because she liked Priscilla White's so much?
14 A. Until you told me that right now,
15 no.
16 Q. So I assume that no request, that
17 you're aware of, was ever made for the Whites
18 to give articles of clothing with respect to
19 this investigation?
20 A. They may have been asked to give
21 clothing; I'm unaware of that.
"

Now to the other fibres found:

''24 Q. How about brown cotton fibers that
25 were found on the duct tape, the cord and
416
1 her body that were consistent but no source
2 found? Is that accurate?
3 A. That were consistent with what?
4 Q. They were consistent with each
5 other, those fibers, the brown cotton fibers
6 that were consistent with fibers found on
7 duct tape, cords and her body?
8 A. That's beyond the scope of what I
9 know and just to educate you, if you allow
10 me.
11 Q. Sure.
12 A. Anything hair and fiber related,
13 Trujillo knows.
"

and

"
25 Q. And, you know, without going and I
246
1 guess we could do it if we need to, maybe
2 we'll do it later but let's just for a
3 moment see if we can't generally agree, that
4 there were a considerable number of fibers
5 found on JonBenet Ramsey's body and articles
6 of clothing that were not in fact sourced by
7 the investigation, true?
8 A. Whether artifact or evidence, yeah,
9 there were a number of hair and fiber pieces
10 in this case that I know they, Trujillo and
11 CBI, were trying to source.
12 Q. And as of August of '98 had not
13 been able to do so, true?
14 A. That's my understanding.
"

I'm not sure at all that I would form an opinion of PR's guilt based on four red fibres found on the tape (which were 'consistent' with the type of jacket PR wore and which was similar to PW's) amongst many other 'unsourced' fibres found in and around JBR's body and on the tape and on the garrotte.

Even if Trujillo produced the report, I'm not sure it would mean much based on what was said above.

 

[BBB167893]

Ok, well this fiber business is bogging us down, but as it is the basis upon which many people formed their RDI theory, I think it needs to be addressed.

If any of you are prepared to accept testimony over heresay, here are some quotes.

VIDEOTAPED DEPOSITION OF
STEVEN THOMAS
September 21, 2001 9:07 a.m.

http://www.jonbenetindexguide.com/09212001Depo-SteveThomas.htm

Addressing my questioning of actual evidence being produced showing the results of fiber testing on the duct tape:

"14 Q. (BY MR. HOFFMAN) Well, you know
15 what, I'm just confusing the issue. I'm
16 going to drop that line of questioning and
17 just ask you, did you have occasion to
18 actually see the CBI report that indicated
19 that there was a likely match for Patsy's
20 blazer with the acrylic fiber found on the
21 duct tape?
22A. Not that I recall. Detective
23 Trujillo, who was in charge of all the
24 evidence and forensic testing in this case,
25 he and Wickman verbally offered that to the
159
1 rest of the detective team.
2 Q. All right. So you never
3 personally saw a report with that result or
4 that conclusion?
5 A. I'm relying on a fellow officer.
"

Now to the evidence about any of PR's clothing fibers found on JBR's clothes:

"4 Q. Yeah, when JonBenet Ramsey was
5 found she was wearing I don't know what other
6 word there is for it but panties and there
7 was a question as to whether or not there
8 were substances found in that panty area.
9 What I'm asking you is do you know if there
10 was ever any forensic evidence indicating that
11 any article of clothing that Patsy wore was
12 found as a particle in that panty area of
13 JonBenet?
14 A. No, I am unaware of any forensic
15 or fiber evidence from Patsy Ramsey's clothing
16 to the victim's under clothing or underwear.
17 Q. Do you know if there was any
18 forensic evidence of Patsy Ramsey's clothing
19 at all besides the duct tape area on
20 JonBenet?
21 A. As we sit here now, no, I don't
22 recollect any other fiber evidence, other than
23 what we have discussed linking the mother to
24 JonBenet.
"

Now, to the fibers found on the duct tape (four in all!), said to be consistent with PRs jacket.

"22 Q. There were no black fibers that
23 were found on the duct tape that were said
24 to be consistent with the fibers on Patsy
25 Ramsey's red and black jacket, were there?
252
1 A. It's my understanding that the
2 four fibers were red in color.
"

And as to whether these were actually from PR's jacket:

"10 Q. Were you aware of the fact that
11 Priscilla White owned an identical jacket,
12 that in fact Patsy Ramsey bought her jacket
13 because she liked Priscilla White's so much?
14 A. Until you told me that right now,
15 no.
16 Q. So I assume that no request, that
17 you're aware of, was ever made for the Whites
18 to give articles of clothing with respect to
19 this investigation?
20 A. They may have been asked to give
21 clothing; I'm unaware of that.
"

Now to the other fibres found:

''24 Q. How about brown cotton fibers that
25 were found on the duct tape, the cord and
416
1 her body that were consistent but no source
2 found? Is that accurate?
3 A. That were consistent with what?
4 Q. They were consistent with each
5 other, those fibers, the brown cotton fibers
6 that were consistent with fibers found on
7 duct tape, cords and her body?
8 A. That's beyond the scope of what I
9 know and just to educate you, if you allow
10 me.
11 Q. Sure.
12 A. Anything hair and fiber related,
13 Trujillo knows.
"

and

"
25 Q. And, you know, without going and I
246
1 guess we could do it if we need to, maybe
2 we'll do it later but let's just for a
3 moment see if we can't generally agree, that
4 there were a considerable number of fibers
5 found on JonBenet Ramsey's body and articles
6 of clothing that were not in fact sourced by
7 the investigation, true?
8 A. Whether artifact or evidence, yeah,
9 there were a number of hair and fiber pieces
10 in this case that I know they, Trujillo and
11 CBI, were trying to source.
12 Q. And as of August of '98 had not
13 been able to do so, true?
14 A. That's my understanding.
"

I'm not sure at all that I would form an opinion of PR's guilt based on four red fibres found on the tape (which were 'consistent' with the type of jacket PR wore and which was similar to PW's) amongst many other 'unsourced' fibres found in and around JBR's body and on the tape and on the garrotte.

Even if Trujillo produced the report, I'm not sure it would mean much based on what was said above.

There's just one big problem, MurriFlower: all of his information and the questions that he was asked were based on what he knew back in 1998 when he left the police force, not necessarily what was known afterwards. Just take it with a grain of salt.

 

[MurriFlower]

There's just one big problem, MurriFlower: all of his information and the questions that he was asked were based on what he knew back in 1998 when he left the police force, not necessarily what was known afterwards. Just take it with a grain of salt.

Oh really SD, and they found other evidence after 1998 that contradicts this?

 

[MurriFlower]

Quite frankly, I'm amazed that anyone believes this "police out to get them" stuff.
I don't. It was stated that within 20 minutes of finding the body, the parents were the prime suspects. This didn't seem to change much.
I honestly don't know who stated that.

I was wrong, actually the police officer at the scene formed the opinion JR was guilty at the same time that he found the body.


IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT2 FOR THE DISTRICT OF COLORADO3 Civil Action No. 98-WY-1198-WD4
DEPOSITION OF LINDA ARNDT, VOL. I

Q. When did you first arrive at this opinion relative to the incident?
A. Which opinion?
Q. As to who killed JonBenet?
A. When John Ramsey came up with the steps with JonBenet in his arms
Q. I didn't hear that. I'm sorry. When John Ramsey came up the stairs with JonBenet
A. In his arms.
Q. That's when you formed the opinion?
A. That's when many things that had not made sense and were disturbing during the morning made sense
Q. All right. So you formed the conclusion he had done it?
A. It was clear that John had killed JonBenet.

 

[DeeDee249]

However, the FBI, who were there before Det. Arndt and left before she arrived, DID suspect the parents right away. They told police "You're going to be finding her body".

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

However, the FBI, who were there before Det. Arndt and left before she arrived, DID suspect the parents right away. They told police "You're going to be finding her body".

Thats cheery. What creep said that?

 

[madeleine]

Sorry, I don't do free research for others. Websleuths has a great search engine. I just explained "consistent with" yesterday so that one, especially, shouldn't be hard to find.

I didn't ask you to do any research for me,I guess I showed I can do it by myself.I asked you something else and you know what I meant.But let's forget it.Yeah I know Beckner said "consistent with" but that was also hear-say,I've never seen any report.Maybe you have.

 

[joeskidbeck]

I was wrong, actually the police officer at the scene formed the opinion JR was guilty at the same time that he found the body.


IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT2 FOR THE DISTRICT OF COLORADO3 Civil Action No. 98-WY-1198-WD4
DEPOSITION OF LINDA ARNDT, VOL. I

Q. When did you first arrive at this opinion relative to the incident?
A. Which opinion?
Q. As to who killed JonBenet?
A. When John Ramsey came up with the steps with JonBenet in his arms
Q. I didn't hear that. I'm sorry. When John Ramsey came up the stairs with JonBenet
A. In his arms.
Q. That's when you formed the opinion?
A. That's when many things that had not made sense and were disturbing during the morning made sense
Q. All right. So you formed the conclusion he had done it?
A. It was clear that John had killed JonBenet.

BBM
Does anyone know if she ever elaborated on that, and if so, where I can read that information? Thanks!

 

[MurriFlower]

BBM
Does anyone know if she ever elaborated on that, and if so, where I can read that information? Thanks!

[ame="http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/showthread.php?t=5650"]Linda Arndt's Deposition - Forums For Justice[/ame]

 

[madeleine]

Linda Wilcox? She didn't do them any favors either.

No.

7 Q. Did you ever interview Shirley

8 Brady, who had been a housekeeper for the

9 Ramseys for almost four years?

10 A. The name sounds familiar and if

11 it's the person I'm thinking of who resided

12 in Georgia I think Harmer or Gosage conducted

13 that interview.

14 Q. They would have prepared a report?

15 A. I would think so.

16 Q. Shirley Brady tells me that she

17 got a phone call and about a five-minute

18 interview and when she said she made it

19 pretty clear that the Ramseys weren't in any

20 way the type of people that could be involved

21 in this, that the interview ended and she

22 never heard from anybody again. Does that

23 sound like a thorough investigation if that's

24 true?

25 A. It depends on what the detectives

295

1 were doing. I don't know what they were

2 doing.

3 Q. Well, you know if you have got to

4 -- if you're spending a lot of time with

5 Linda Hoffmann-Pugh who had worked for them

6 less than two years and only worked part time

7 and you want to know all about this family's

8 background, a thorough investigation, wouldn't

9 you believe, sir, from your experience as a

10 police officer that you're going to spend

11 more than five minutes on the phone with

12 someone who was a housekeeper for three

13 years?

14 A. For some reason in my mind, and I

15 may be wrong, I don't think Mrs. Brady was

16 ever in Colorado with the family. There was

17 apparently nothing that the detective who

18 interviewed her felt was worth more than

19 their five minutes. You would have to ask

20 them.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Linda Arndt's Deposition - Forums For Justice

A small child carried up the stairs by an adult...the adult has to bend his knees while climbing, and pass thru a doorway. The only way to do that and carry a 6 1/2 year old at the same time is in front of you, upright, facing you, and held high to clear the knees. This is the way he did it. Held higher in front of him.

And a police detective doesn't understand that?

 

[BOESP]

A small child carried up the stairs by an adult...the adult has to bend his knees while climbing, and pass thru a doorway. The only way to do that and carry a 6 1/2 year old at the same time is in front of you, upright, facing you, and held high to clear the knees. This is the way he did it. Held higher in front of him.

And a police detective doesn't understand that?

I understand that most parents would hold the child against them with both arms wrapped around the child in a protective stance. Forget the arms-length, up-and-away stance. That is called "distancing."

 

[madeleine]

http://www.acandyrose.com/05312000larrykinglive.htm


KING: Are they looking at other suspects, by the way?


THOMAS: Yes, they -- it's interesting. The Ramseys at this point -- of course, the Boulder police will look at any legitimate suspect that's brought to them. But at this point, until the Ramseys satisfy the Boulder Police Department that they are not involved in this case...

KING: You're asking them to prove their innocence?

----------------------


THANK YOU ST :clap: for confirming once again that the BPD didn't look at other suspects

 

[madeleine]

http://www.acandyrose.com/05312000larrykinglive.htm

THOMAS: My theory is quite simple: Whoever authored the ransom note killed the child, absent some great conspiracy, that they think this intruder came into the house.

At least there were some other people in the same camp trying to explain to the like of ST that the author of the RN isn't necessarily the killer.