Idle Thought

[Ames]

In the thread "Uses for a Celtic Harp" at CTV's JonBenet forum, someone gives a friends' arrival timeline. That forum looks so much like this one I sometimes forget which one I'm in, and how long I've got for an edit, so you can hopefully skip over my inconsequential post to somebody there who's also a member here. The timeline is worth going there for, I assure you.

The friends who supposedly were called that morning would have had a whole list of things to do before getting into their cars. Anyone ever timed themselves getting read for work? How long does shaving take, making a cup of coffee, brushing teeth, getting dressed, etc., etc., besides driving time?

Didn't some of them get there in 10 minutes from across town? The Whites no longer lived on 15th St., two doors away, in case anyone's thinking they still lived there.

I've always wondered if they'd been there all night, and calling them over was just another lie for those of you who may be making a list of lies. Solace? There had been a light snow just before morning. So were there any definitely fresh tire tracks to prove the friends had just arrived that morning? Anyone know how to find that out? There were some bicycle tracks, probably a paper boy's.

Good point...but why would the Ramsey's invite them over after leaving the White's when they had a plane to catch the next morning? OR...are you saying that maybe, Patsy CALLED them over that night, after they all got home? Why, in your opinion, would the Ramsey's do that? So, do you think that the "kidnapping" happened earlier than previously thought? And thats why she called them over that night? Or do you think that maybe, the Christmas party at the White's, just moved to the Ramsey's house for some reason? I was just curious as to why you thought that the friends would have been called over earlier than the Ramsey's stated.

 

[IrishMist]

In the thread "Uses for a Celtic Harp" at CTV's JonBenet forum, someone gives a friends' arrival timeline. That forum looks so much like this one I sometimes forget which one I'm in, and how long I've got for an edit, so you can hopefully skip over my inconsequential post to somebody there who's also a member here. The timeline is worth going there for, I assure you.

The friends who supposedly were called that morning would have had a whole list of things to do before getting into their cars. Anyone ever timed themselves getting read for work? How long does shaving take, making a cup of coffee, brushing teeth, getting dressed, etc., etc., besides driving time?

Didn't some of them get there in 10 minutes from across town? The Whites no longer lived on 15th St., two doors away, in case anyone's thinking they still lived there.

I've always wondered if they'd been there all night, and calling them over was just another lie for those of you who may be making a list of lies. Solace? There had been a light snow just before morning. So were there any definitely fresh tire tracks to prove the friends had just arrived that morning? Anyone know how to find that out? There were some bicycle tracks, probably a paper boy's.

But there is a big difference between getting ready for work, and answering a frantic call from a friend to COME OVER RIGHT NOW! In that instance, I think it would be more the case of throwing on some clothes, getting out the door, and probably some speeding.

 

[Eagle1]

OR...are you saying that maybe, Patsy CALLED them over that night, after they all got home? .... And thats why she called them over that night? Or do you think that maybe, the Christmas party at the White's, just moved to the Ramsey's house for some reason? I was just curious as to why you thought that the friends would have been called over earlier than the Ramsey's stated.

As you said, Ames, Maybe the party moved to the Ramsey house like you said, disregarding their having informed everyone they were leaving early the next morning. I don't think there was any kidnapping, and I don't think you think that either. So I'll skip over that.

I'm saying maybe Patsy never called them to come over at all! Some of you are making a collection of Ramsey lies. Wouldn't you like to add this about calling the friends over as a very possible lie?

Maybe, and this really is a stretch I admit in advance but we may need to practice stretching, because we're getting nowhere with the same old few things to discuss, maybe FW and one of the guests had been out caroling when the R's left, so they decided, maybe a little drunk, to go over to the R's, and party down.

McSanta wouldn't have been with them, or maybe they even called him, and the others, if, if, if he was involved, and I hear he was twice almost arrested, heart attack or not. I must give credit to another poster for inventing the "if, if, if" expression, which is just to emphasize "if" a lot.

I'm saying we haven't heard of any proof that the friends had just recently arrived, or that they'd been there all night, either way. Nobody thought to ask about that or look for evidence about it at the time. The most we've heard about tracking was that there were no footprints, correct? The concrete was dry, don't know about the street, and if there should have been any wet, maybe icy, prints on the concrete.

Maybe not all of them were there all night, maybe just some of them, or, maybe none, but some things suggest we need to think about the possibility. I can't think of any way it could be ruled out, can you?

Maybe they were more than a little drunk, the some of them who just possibly may have gone over there. I'd just like to know what you think.

 

[Ames]

As you said, Ames, Maybe the party moved to the Ramsey house like you said, disregarding their having informed everyone they were leaving early the next morning. I don't think there was any kidnapping, and I don't think you think that either. So I'll skip over that.

I'm saying maybe Patsy never called them to come over at all! Some of you are making a collection of Ramsey lies. Wouldn't you like to add this about calling the friends over as a very possible lie?

Maybe, and this really is a stretch I admit in advance but we may need to practice stretching, because we're getting nowhere with the same old few things to discuss, maybe FW and one of the guests had been out caroling when the R's left, so they decided, maybe a little drunk, to go over to the R's, and party down.

McSanta wouldn't have been with them, or maybe they even called him, and the others, if, if, if he was involved, and I hear he was twice almost arrested, heart attack or not. I must give credit to another poster for inventing the "if, if, if" expression, which is just to emphasize "if" a lot.

I'm saying we haven't heard of any proof that the friends had just recently arrived, or that they'd been there all night, either way. Nobody thought to ask about that or look for evidence about it at the time. The most we've heard about tracking was that there were no footprints, correct? The concrete was dry, don't know about the street, and if there should have been any wet, maybe icy, prints on the concrete.

Maybe not all of them were there all night, maybe just some of them, or, maybe none, but some things suggest we need to think about the possibility. I can't think of any way it could be ruled out, can you?

Maybe they were more than a little drunk, the some of them who just possibly may have gone over there. I'd just like to know what you think.

Hmmmm, could be. But, I am sure that the friends were questioned about it, and what would they gain from lying? And what would the Ramsey's gain from lying about the time frame of their friend's arrival? That...it seems...would be THE question here. What do you think their motive would have been?

 

[Eagle1]

....
And what would the Ramsey's gain from lying about the time frame of their friend's arrival? That...it seems...would be THE question here. What do you think their motive would have been?

Simply to hide the fact that they and some of their friends sometimes had these after-party adventures with poor little JonBenet, I'll bet.

If they didn't have something to hide about exactly when the friends arrived, why would they lie (?) that they'd just called them and they'd just come?

I just have a strong hunch, can't prove it just as nobody can prove anythihg, that some, maybe not all, of the friends may even have been there all night.

I saw your post about having a yearbook in elementary school. Okay. We didn't until graduating from h.s.

Try this idea on for size at least, that some of them may have been there that night. Picture it. Possible, right? Didn't Nedra say JonBenet was only molested "a little bit"? So even she knew about whatever crazy thing was going on. I think it happened again at the party on the 23rd and JonBenet having learned her parents weren't going to pay any attention tried to call a halt to it by attempting the 911 call. (Many posters years ago said they found that FW's mom was getting ready for a party, wasn't in a hospital, the cover story when Susan Stine wouldn't let police in, talked to them through a door intercom. (Just because it was there? Wouldn't you think they would have insisted on coming in, and maybe even tried to get a warrant?)

 

[Ames]

Simply to hide the fact that they and some of their friends sometimes had these after-party adventures with poor little JonBenet, I'll bet.

Gottcha...I had never thought about that before.

 

[Eagle1]

Probably John was also afraid of this gang, if my suspicions are at all correct, another motive to downplay the confrontation with FW, etc., and give a version of the arrival home, putting the kids to bed, etc., which sounds perfectly normal, until these discrepances in the arrival times of the friends next morning.

Years ago, it was common knowledge that a worldwide pedo ring had been busted in Boulder, but now I can't find anything about it by googling. Huge coverup, I guess, meaning they probably didn't get all of them, and I'm NOT saying one was necessarily involved in the JonBenet case, but JR just may have thought of the possibility, may have known someone for all we know that he may have been afraid of. I acknowledge there were lots of lies, not just the Ramseys either, imo.

I think the poster at Court TV got the detailed arrival timeline from the ACandyRose site, you'll want to read if you haven't already. I can't quote it from memory, sorry. It's just logic that it would have been difficult or impossible for someone to get there in 10 min. from almost across town. I can be getting in my car to go somewhere, gathering up my purse, my list, and whatever else I need to take, opening garage door, looking house doors, unlocking car, and all that can take between 5 and 10 minutes before I know it. After the showering/getting dressed/brushing teeth/having even instant coffee/getting coat and shoes, etc. There may have been a few red lights, also. Remember, I said this is all conjecture on my part, everyone. I make no claims whatsoever as to what really happened, wasn't there.

 

[Solace]

Simply to hide the fact that they and some of their friends sometimes had these after-party adventures with poor little JonBenet, I'll bet.

If they didn't have something to hide about exactly when the friends arrived, why would they lie (?) that they'd just called them and they'd just come?

I just have a strong hunch, can't prove it just as nobody can prove anythihg, that some, maybe not all, of the friends may even have been there all night.

I saw your post about having a yearbook in elementary school. Okay. We didn't until graduating from h.s.

Try this idea on for size at least, that some of them may have been there that night. Picture it. Possible, right? Didn't Nedra say JonBenet was only molested "a little bit"? So even she knew about whatever crazy thing was going on. I think it happened again at the party on the 23rd and JonBenet having learned her parents weren't going to pay any attention tried to call a halt to it by attempting the 911 call. (Many posters years ago said they found that FW's mom was getting ready for a party, wasn't in a hospital, the cover story when Susan Stine wouldn't let police in, talked to them through a door intercom. (Just because it was there? Wouldn't you think they would have insisted on coming in, and maybe even tried to get a warrant?)

Eagle. If I am reading this correctly, you are speculating that the friends and the Ramseys were having a sex party with JonBenet. All these friends are coming over and having a party with one child?

If I am wrong please correct me.

Another poster said something to the effect that John may have gravitated towards JonBenet since the loss of his first daughter who he was almost inconsolable over and Patsy was distant, I could see that happening.


I cannot see the former and frankly, I think if someone were to come in on this read such as a pro Ramsey pal, they would rightfully think we were out of our minds. This is a rage accident. It is not a Rosemary's baby type party where everyone is having sex with a six year old, unless I have the above theory wrong.

 

[Veronica10]

Eagle. If I am reading this correctly, you are speculating that the friends and the Ramseys were having a sex party with JonBenet. All these friends are coming over and having a party with one child?

If I am wrong please correct me.

Another poster said something to the effect that John may have gravitated towards JonBenet since the loss of his first daughter who he was almost inconsolable over and Patsy was distant, I could see that happening.


I cannot see the former and frankly, I think if someone were to come in on this read such as a pro Ramsey pal, they would rightfully think we were out of our minds. This is a rage accident. It is not a Rosemary's baby type party where everyone is having sex with a six year old, unless I have the above theory wrong.

Solace, right on. I could not agree more.

 

[Solace]

Solace, right on. I could not agree more.

Glad to hear that Veronica, because when these murder cases deteriorate to this kind of speculation, I feel like it is a total waste of time. There are some really good theories posted today alone, such as JMO's theory that possibly Patsy was trying to put the red turtle neck on JB so she did not have to dress her in the early am and a fight ensued ending in JB's death. That sounds incredibly likely. I am also not dismissing the molesting theory, because the physical evidence definitely points to it. But that could have been happening without Patsy's knowledge and frankly I think it is more than likely it did. Patsy does seem way too self-involved to let anyone smite her like that.

 

[Veronica10]

You know Solace, this kind of wild speculation reminds me of the pro-ramsey camp. Crazy speculation like maybe the intruder brought the pineapple in a tupperware container into the house, because after all Patsy denied JB eating it...

No offense to anyone here but any talk of sex parties and the like turns me off. I think JB's murder is pretty much what it seems to be...a wildly stressed mom freaks the hell out, a rage incident occurs, then a transparently silly cover-up ensues. I don't mean to imply that any of this tragedy is silly.

OT - Solace, you are very spunky, I enjoy reading your posts.

 

[IrishMist]

You know Solace, this kind of wild speculation reminds me of the pro-ramsey camp. Crazy speculation like maybe the intruder brought the pineapple in a tupperware container into the house, because after all Patsy denied JB eating it...

No offense to anyone here but any talk of sex parties and the like turns me off. I think JB's murder is pretty much what it seems to be...a wildly stressed mom freaks the hell out, a rage incident occurs, then a transparently silly cover-up ensues. I don't mean to imply that any of this tragedy is silly.

OT - Solace, you are very spunky, I enjoy reading your posts.

I have to agree, Veronica. I think when it comes down to it, KISS is the way to go.

 

[Veronica10]

I have to agree, Veronica. I think when it comes down to it, KISS is the way to go.

KISS? Not sure what this is.

 

[IrishMist]

KISS? Not sure what this is.

Sorry, I thought everyone knew that. :blushing:

KISS= Keep It Simple, Stupid.

Or, less offensively:

KISS=Keep It Simple, Silly

 

[Solace]

You know Solace, this kind of wild speculation reminds me of the pro-ramsey camp. Crazy speculation like maybe the intruder brought the pineapple in a tupperware container into the house, because after all Patsy denied JB eating it...

No offense to anyone here but any talk of sex parties and the like turns me off. I think JB's murder is pretty much what it seems to be...a wildly stressed mom freaks the hell out, a rage incident occurs, then a transparently silly cover-up ensues. I don't mean to imply that any of this tragedy is silly.

OT - Solace, you are very spunky, I enjoy reading your posts.

Veronica. Thank you. I enjoy reading yours also. I also agree with you. This murder is pretty much what it seems to be. Like most things are pretty much what they appear to be.

I also read a very interesting article on a recent documentary on the Ramseys shown in England (I think SuperDave posted it). The author of the article comments on John Ramsey's reactions in the documentary; one of which is the following: he is asked if he killed his daughter and with his head down, shakes his head yes a few times and then (almost as if he realized the question) he shakes his head no and says I would have given my life for her.

If someone were to ask me if I killed my child would I shake my head yes (even if John would like us to believe it was in response to the fact that he knew the question would be asked, as if to say, here we go again) I DOUBT I WOULD BE SHAKING MY HEAD YES. I really believe that subconscious mind is very hard to overrule at times.

This is not to say that John did the actually killing, but imo, he knows who did. The whole murder is so bizarre, not because of the murder itself (murders of children are always horrific) but the fact that they keep a high profile, going on LKL, giving interviews, etc. (I find that so bizarre because the crime is just so sad). Okay, say Patsy did it and John and Patsy decide there is no good to come of their going to jail; they have to think of Berke and Patsy is probably going to die within 5 years, why go to jail). I can see that conversation taking place. BUT to hammer it in to the public through interviews instead of quietly slipping away and moving away, I just find it bizarre. They are constantly reliving it.

 

[Eagle1]

I never said all the friends were having a sex party with JonBenet, couldn't imagine that myself, since I don't know how sex parties are done, anything about them. At one forum years ago the owner knew about S&M and all the other games for adults, but I don't remember any of that.

So many times, the RDI's have put words in my mouth that I never dreamed of, this isn't meant to sound sarcastic,any more than your sayings are, just a real question, that maybe I'm not the only thing or person you're misunderstanding, reason you can just jump to conclusions about this case that professional LE's can't.

I once knew a man who was getting senile and used to say "Keep It Simple Stupid" all the time, embarrassed that he couldn't keep up with things any more. Wasn't a problem solver, that's for sure. You couldn't get mad at him, but couldn't explain the simplest thing to him either. You don't want to risk being stereotyped as one of those, do you?

If somebody, not myself, comes up with a complicated new theory they been checking and cross-checking for months, we'll be as nice and appreciative to them as we'd want them to be to us, right? You were just kidding,right?

 

[Ames]

Eagle. If I am reading this correctly, you are speculating that the friends and the Ramseys were having a sex party with JonBenet. All these friends are coming over and having a party with one child?

If I am wrong please correct me.

Another poster said something to the effect that John may have gravitated towards JonBenet since the loss of his first daughter who he was almost inconsolable over and Patsy was distant, I could see that happening.


I cannot see the former and frankly, I think if someone were to come in on this read such as a pro Ramsey pal, they would rightfully think we were out of our minds. This is a rage accident. It is not a Rosemary's baby type party where everyone is having sex with a six year old, unless I have the above theory wrong.

I agree with you. I told Eagle that I had never thought of that before. But, I don't think that is what happened that night.

 

[Solace]

I never said all the friends were having a sex party with JonBenet, couldn't imagine that myself, since I don't know how sex parties are done, anything about them. At one forum years ago the owner knew about S&M and all the other games for adults, but I don't remember any of that.

So many times, the RDI's have put words in my mouth that I never dreamed of, this isn't meant to sound sarcastic,any more than your sayings are, just a real question, that maybe I'm not the only thing or person you're misunderstanding, reason you can just jump to conclusions about this case that professional LE's can't.

I once knew a man who was getting senile and used to say "Keep It Simple Stupid" all the time, embarrassed that he couldn't keep up with things any more. Wasn't a problem solver, that's for sure. You couldn't get mad at him, but couldn't explain the simplest thing to him either. You don't want to risk being stereotyped as one of those, do you?

If somebody, not myself, comes up with a complicated new theory they been checking and cross-checking for months, we'll be as nice and appreciative to them as we'd want them to be to us, right? You were just kidding,right?

Eagle: This is what you posted:

"Simply to hide the fact that they and some of their friends sometimes had these after-party adventures with poor little JonBenet, I'll bet." So what did you mean by that? I am really trying to understand. What do you mean by after-party adventures with poor little JonBenet?


And: "If somebody, not myself, comes up with a complicated new theory they been checking and cross-checking for months, we'll be as nice and appreciative to them as we'd want them to be to us, right? You were just kidding,right? " Why would I be kidding? I am responding to your post.

And yet: Try this idea on for size at least, that some of them may have been there that night. Picture it. Possible, right? Didn't Nedra say JonBenet was only molested "a little bit"? So even she knew about whatever crazy thing was going on. I think it happened again at the party on the 23rd and JonBenet "

Eagle, All of the above sounds like a "sex party" to me. If you did not mean that, what did you mean?

As far as there being no proof that the friends came over that morning, Officer French was the first one on the scene, he would have known if there were others there. My point is if we are going to discuss this case, then let's discuss it rationally; To say there is no proof that the friends were not there all night is grasping at straws for a new "theory". Lawrence Schiller and Steve Thomas both say in their books that the friends arrived that morning.

 

[Solace]

I agree with you. I told Eagle that I had never thought of that before. But, I don't think that is what happened that night.

Hi Ames, I think it was a rage killing. The red turtleneck in a ball on the floor of the bathroom, all the hair ties all over the bathroom floor. JMO came up with an excellent theory and the soundest one I have heard of so far. Maybe she did want to dress her for the morning and rage ensued with JB dying. Whether there was molestation going on, SuperDave has posted very credible evidence that there was. I never believed that was true, even after I read Cyril Wecht's account. But SD's post were very damning. Either there was some severe corporal punishment by Patsy in the form of douching or someone was molesting JonBenet.

Ames your posts are well researched. Love reading them. Thank you.

 

[Ames]

Hi Ames, I think it was a rage killing. The red turtleneck in a ball on the floor of the bathroom, all the hair ties all over the bathroom floor. JMO came up with an excellent theory and the soundest one I have heard of so far. Maybe she did want to dress her for the morning and rage ensued with JB dying. Whether there was molestation going on, SuperDave has posted very credible evidence that there was. I never believed that was true, even after I read Cyril Wecht's account. But SD's post were very damning. Either there was some severe corporal punishment by Patsy in the form of douching or someone was molesting JonBenet.

Ames your posts are well researched. Love reading them. Thank you.

:blushing: Thank you, I love reading your posts too!!

I just think that the red turtleneck has more to do with this, than anyone thinks.