If JonBenet's death was an accident...

[SunnieRN]

As silly as Murri is being, I too think it's a bit rich to think that a 6 year old couldn't read some words.

My 5 year old can read some sentences, but when she was younger she recognized some other words like the days of the week.

Given this was part of her routine (apparently), I think it is more likely that she would recognize the words on her own underpants - especially the only one that starts with a 'W'.

I am not disagreeing with you whatsoever wonder, just going by what her Mom says. My grandson is 5, has a learning disability and even he can read his name. Days of the week, or letter recognition of all letters isn't there yet, unfortunately. But, why would Patsy have bothered to say that if it were not true? Just wondering about that. It's nonsensical, don't you think?

 

[Tadpole12]

On Amazon.com, you used to be able to read the first chapter of DOI. The Ramseys said in the book that Burke had to help JBR on Christmas because JBR couldn't read the names on the presents---Mom, Dad, Burke, and JonBenet. Is it normal for a 6-year-old to not be able to read her own name, her brother's name, and 'mom' and 'dad'?

Also, I saw a picture of a list of rules that JBR had written for her classroom. They were "No fiten" and "Sha toy" and "Be Nis"

TY eileenhawkeye.

Gonna do a reread.
I didn't read DOI, just a few segments available online.

Gee, Go Figure!
DOI just answered one of my Qs re JB. JB was met in front of the Ramsey home, with the bike in hand, on Christmas Eve

 

[UKGuy]

Not to discard or make light of that UK Guy, as you know we agree 100% on that, but that is only 1 item, 1 lie, in a huge list! Just leading me back to my above statement!

SunnieRN,

Sure, just thought I'd add another improbable event to yours. And reading over eileenhawkeye's statistics it looks like the probability of JonBenet being kidnapped is lotto ticket odds, far surpassing the telephone number analogy.

 

[UKGuy]

From DOI.

DOI (HB) Page 3:

"The kids screamed and cheered as they realized that Santa had brought just about everything in their lists. JonBenet wanted to take her new bike outside for a spin, but Burke suggested, "Let's get all the other gifts opened first. "Ah, the wise and experienced big brother. JonBenet agreed. They quickly busied themselves playing Santa's elves and distributing the beautifully wrapped gifts. JonBenet asked for Burke's assistance with the name tags, since he could read and she couldn't. It was the most fun in the world, doling out the gifts and seeing whose pile would become the biggest."



Remember MF, per your words, Patsy NEVER lies.

SunnieRN,
This is what you would expect Patsy to say. Yet from memory some of JonBenet's clothes were tagged for her to know when to wear them?

.

 

[UKGuy]

I am not disagreeing with you whatsoever wonder, just going by what her Mom says. My grandson is 5, has a learning disability and even he can read his name. Days of the week, or letter recognition of all letters isn't there yet, unfortunately. But, why would Patsy have bothered to say that if it were not true? Just wondering about that. It's nonsensical, don't you think?

SunnieRN,

Well I reckon JonBenet could read the days of the week, even if its only by the distinguishing the first letter e.g. W, there is only one of those in the whole week.

Also:

Also, I saw a picture of a list of rules that JBR had written for her classroom. They were "No fiten" and "Sha toy" and "Be Nis"

This seems credible evidence that JonBenet could make out basic words, the understanding is patently phonetic, with a grammar and spelling matching that of a six-year old.


.

 

[Toltec]

Weren't the bloomie panties Patsy turned over rolled up like new? What six-year-old would pull out a pair of "Wednesday" panties without unrolling the entire pack?

JonBenet could not read and definately would not be able to read the word "Wednesday".

PERIOD!

 

[Toltec]

Speaking of whether JonBenet could read or not...

Why was JonBenet in Kindergarten? She turned six in August and should have started the first grade. Why did the Ramseys wait an entire year before starting her in Kindergarten?

 

[eileenhawkeye]

Speaking of whether JonBenet could read or not...

Why was JonBenet in Kindergarten? She turned six in August and should have started the first grade. Why did the Ramseys wait an entire year before starting her in Kindergarten?

I'm not sure if the Ramseys ever gave an answer to that question.
One theory I have is that JonBenet wasn't ready for kindergarten in 1995 because of her bathroom issues. I looked online and apparently in 2007, JonBenet's school district's cut off date was September 30. I don't know what it was in the mid-90s but it probably didn't change by much. There isn't a big difference between August 6 and September 30; it's not like she was born in January 1990. It seems a lot of parents think their child, especially if they're born in the late Summer or early Fall, isn't ready for kindergarten.

ETA: According to http://www.acandyrose.com/s-jonbenet-timeline.htm, it looks like JonBenet's hair was first dyed blonde in September 1995. Is it possible that Patsy decided to not send her to school that year so the teachers would not get concerned when 5-year-old JonBenet walked in with blonde hair? I realize that JonBenet being kept back could just be due to her not being ready for kindergarten, but I also think there could be a pageant reason behind this.

 

[SunnieRN]

Speaking of whether JonBenet could read or not...

Why was JonBenet in Kindergarten? She turned six in August and should have started the first grade. Why did the Ramseys wait an entire year before starting her in Kindergarten?

I have a feeling there were various reasons. Pageant preparation, including dance lessons, the ability to travel with Patsy more often, but I think one big reason may have been due to Patsy's cancer treatments. She was not able to have another child, period. I have a feeling she wanted one more year with JonBenet still being her 'little girl', vs a school girl.

Kind of holding on to her motherhood and JonBenets little girl time for a bit longer.

As far as toileting issues, wasn't she potty trained at 3 ? I thought her problems re started the year she should have been in kindergarten?

 

[cynic]

So the panties, (again). JBR dressed herself, even LHP said so. PR had packed the clothes on Christmas Day to go away the next morning. JBR was told to get ready to go to the Whites for Christmas Dinner. She goes to the panty drawer, but all that's in there are her too small, stained panties.

The drawer where all her clean panties were, according to PR?
MS. HARMER: But you specifically remember her putting on the bigger pair?
And I am not saying --
THE WITNESS: They were just in her panty drawer, so I don't, you know, I don't pay attention. I mean, I just put all of her clean panties in a drawer and she can help herself to whatever is in there.
Patsy Ramsey interview August 28, 2000

And you are saying that not even one clean, appropriately sized pair of panties was left? Exactly how probable do you think that is?

Does she want to wear one of these to visit her best friend on Christmas Day? Noooo.

So instead she picks panties for someone twice her weight and 10 – 12 inches taller, that would look ridiculous and undoubtedly be both uncomfortable and “lumpy” under her pants?

 

[cynic]

Weren't the bloomie panties Patsy turned over rolled up like new? What six-year-old would pull out a pair of "Wednesday" panties without unrolling the entire pack?

JonBenet could not read and definately would not be able to read the word "Wednesday".

PERIOD!

They would have been rolled and sealed in a plastic package. At some point someone would have to use scissors or a knife to remove the plastic string which sealed the package if they wanted to begin using them.

[ame="http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/showpost.php?p=106535&postcount=1"]Forums For Justice - View Single Post - The Gigantic (Girls Size 12-14) "Bloomies" Underwear Found On JonBenet[/ame]


[ame="http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/showpost.php?p=106536&postcount=2"]Forums For Justice - View Single Post - The Gigantic (Girls Size 12-14) "Bloomies" Underwear Found On JonBenet[/ame]

 

[UKGuy]

They would have been rolled and sealed in a plastic package. At some point someone would have to use scissors or a knife to remove the plastic string which sealed the package if they wanted to begin using them.

Forums For Justice - View Single Post - The Gigantic (Girls Size 12-14) "Bloomies" Underwear Found On JonBenet


Forums For Justice - View Single Post - The Gigantic (Girls Size 12-14) "Bloomies" Underwear Found On JonBenet

cynic,
Does this mean that the person who opened the size-12's for the first time, either was lucky first time, and chose the Wednesday pair, or had to keep opening until they appeared?

On this subject. I have never understood why Patsy needed to peek inside the presents. Along with her size-12 inconsistencies, I just do not beleive her.

.

 

[Toltec]

cynic,
Does this mean that the person who opened the size-12's for the first time, either was lucky first time, and chose the Wednesday pair, or had to keep opening until they appeared?

On this subject. I have never understood why Patsy needed to peek inside the presents. Along with her size-12 inconsistencies, I just do not beleive her.

.

The Christmas Party of Dec 23d brought some unexpected guests. I believe Doug Stine brought a little boy with him and then there was LHP and Ariana.

Patsy says she went down to the basement and wrapped a blouse she had gotten for LHP. She then went and peeked into some of Burke's FAO Schwartz packages to find a gift for the boy guest. That might explain some partially opened packages in the wine cellar.

 

[MurriFlower]

The Christmas Party of Dec 23d brought some unexpected guests. I believe Doug Stine brought a little boy with him and then there was LHP and Ariana.

Patsy says she went down to the basement and wrapped a blouse she had gotten for LHP. She then went and peeked into some of Burke's FAO Schwartz packages to find a gift for the boy guest. That might explain some partially opened packages in the wine cellar.

I wonder if LHP was a bit disappointed to receive a blouse, when she might have been expecting a $$ Christmas Bonus (like she got the first year)? Perhaps she was even counting on it. Let's see now, from memory, she rang the following day (24th) and said she couldn't come into work because she had had a fight with her sister over payment of some debt (rent?) and it was then she asked for the $1,000 loan. Hmmmmmmmm.

 

[cynic]

cynic,
Does this mean that the person who opened the size-12's for the first time, either was lucky first time, and chose the Wednesday pair, or had to keep opening until they appeared?

If you look at this view of the package, you will see that the “days” are not visible; however, we only see one side.
I do think that the “days” were, in all likelihood, not visible and the package contents would have to be dumped in order to find a particular “day.”

On this subject. I have never understood why Patsy needed to peek inside the presents. Along with her size-12 inconsistencies, I just do not believe her.

I don’t believe her either. It’s interesting that one of the gifts was separated from the rest, could this have been the one that had the Bloomingdale panties?
Regardless, I believe that those packages were searched the night that JBR died for something that was needed for staging and or “undoing,” and the most probable item would be the panties.

TRIP DEMUTH: I have a question for you, 148 here.
PATSY RAMSEY: These were gifts I think I was holding back for Burke's birthday.
TRIP DEMUTH: They are in the red and white and yellow FAO Schwartz wrapping?
PATSY RAMSEY: Right.
TRIP DEMUTH: Now in 148 there is also this white pocket, do you know what that is? PATSY RAMSEY: Huh-uh, it looks like cotton. I don't know.
TRIP DEMUTH: Okay. It is hard to sort of figure out where all of these pictures are taken, but there is another package over here.
PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-huh.
TRIP DEMUTH: Does that look out of place or in the proper place?
PATSY RAMSEY: Well, I had -- you know, I stacked up some packages along there (inaudible). Kicked (inaudible) or something. I kind of have it backed up here.
TRIP DEMUTH: Okay. So the packages in 146, it looks like it is out of place to you?
(I believe this is a transcription error, it should be package, not packages as corroborated by the context “it is out of place.”)
PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-huh. Yeah. See, that looks -- the door would be here.
TRIP DEMUTH: It is hard.
PATSY RAMSEY: So that would be back in here somewhere. I was right in front of the door.
TRIP DEMUTH: No. Here are the screens. You see the screens over here, the small screens, so it is more back in this.
PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah. I would tuck them there.
TRIP DEMUTH: I guess the point is, there wasn't one that was off by itself. They should have all been together. The location in picture 148 is the correct place for all of the packages to have been? PATSY RAMSEY: Right.
TOM HANEY: Before we go on, could we just talk briefly about the packages, these were presents for whom, the ones that were left in there?
PATSY RAMSEY: I believe for, you know, I held some back for Burke's birthday which is in January.
TRIP DEMUTH: Okay.
TOM HANEY: So that could have been that.
PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah. I don't remember what was in them.
TOM HANEY: Would any of these packages be opened?
PATSY RAMSEY: Probably. Well, see, these came up, I was at FAO Schwartz in New York when JonBenet and I were up there for a trip, and I had them sent back to Boulder and they wrapped them, free gift wrapping. So like right here it looks like I kind of peeled a little back to see what was in it because I couldn't remember what was in them.
TRIP DEMUTH: If the wrapping has been undone partially, that was –
PATSY RAMSEY: I probably would have done that to peek to see what was in there.
TRIP DEMUTH: Okay.
TOM HANEY: Where did you do the bulk of your Christmas shopping, the items you put in there?
PATSY RAMSEY: Well, all of this stuff right here was from FAO Schwartz in New York.
1998 interview, Patsy Ramsey

 

[cynic]

The Christmas Party of Dec 23d brought some unexpected guests. I believe Doug Stine brought a little boy with him and then there was LHP and Ariana.

Patsy says she went down to the basement and wrapped a blouse she had gotten for LHP. She then went and peeked into some of Burke's FAO Schwartz packages to find a gift for the boy guest. That might explain some partially opened packages in the wine cellar.

PR had ample opportunity to mention this when she was asked specifically about the partially wrapped/unwrapped presents, but did not.
PR clearly remembered wrapping a present for LHP’s daughter, but no mention is made of any last minute present for the boy that Fernie brought along. He is mentioned, but there is no mention of a gift for him.

PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah. This is a little poem. Linda used (inaudible) this little on top, I added kind of as an individual, Linda and Arionna (phonetic), the cleaning lady and her daughter, were helping me, you know, and Santa Claus came. I said, aren't you staying.
So I got them a little gift, you know. I went to the basement. I got some little something to
give them.
TRIP DEMUTH: Where in the basement?
PATSY RAMSEY: Probably near where my wrapping stuff was by the laundry room area.
TOM HANEY: You had a few extra things just –
PATSY RAMSEY: Extra little stuff. I think I had a blouse I was going to give Linda, so I just 8 wrapped it quickly so everybody could have something from Santa Claus.

…

PATSY RAMSEY: Right. And Eric was a boy that Fernie had brought kind of last minute.
TOM HANEY: Another unexpected.
PATSY RAMSEY: Right. I think that was Susan's mother.
TRIP DEMUTH: How old was Eric? PATSY RAMSEY: You know, the boy's age, 10, 11, 9 or 10.
(At this point the interview moves on with no mention of Eric getting a gift.)
1998 interview, Patsy Ramsey

 

[MurriFlower]

If you look at this view of the package, you will see that the “days” are not visible; however, we only see one side.
I do think that the “days” were, in all likelihood, not visible and the package contents would have to be dumped in order to find a particular “day.”

I don’t believe her either. It’s interesting that one of the gifts was separated from the rest, could this have been the one that had the Bloomingdale panties?
Regardless, I believe that those packages were searched the night that JBR died for something that was needed for staging and or “undoing,” and the most probable item would be the panties.

TRIP DEMUTH: I have a question for you, 148 here.
PATSY RAMSEY: These were gifts I think I was holding back for Burke's birthday.
TRIP DEMUTH: They are in the red and white and yellow FAO Schwartz wrapping?
PATSY RAMSEY: Right.
TRIP DEMUTH: Now in 148 there is also this white pocket, do you know what that is? PATSY RAMSEY: Huh-uh, it looks like cotton. I don't know.
TRIP DEMUTH: Okay. It is hard to sort of figure out where all of these pictures are taken, but there is another package over here.
PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-huh.
TRIP DEMUTH: Does that look out of place or in the proper place?
PATSY RAMSEY: Well, I had -- you know, I stacked up some packages along there (inaudible). Kicked (inaudible) or something. I kind of have it backed up here.
TRIP DEMUTH: Okay. So the packages in 146, it looks like it is out of place to you?
(I believe this is a transcription error, it should be package, not packages as corroborated by the context “it is out of place.”)
PATSY RAMSEY: Uh-huh. Yeah. See, that looks -- the door would be here.
TRIP DEMUTH: It is hard.
PATSY RAMSEY: So that would be back in here somewhere. I was right in front of the door.
TRIP DEMUTH: No. Here are the screens. You see the screens over here, the small screens, so it is more back in this.
PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah. I would tuck them there.
TRIP DEMUTH: I guess the point is, there wasn't one that was off by itself. They should have all been together. The location in picture 148 is the correct place for all of the packages to have been? PATSY RAMSEY: Right.
TOM HANEY: Before we go on, could we just talk briefly about the packages, these were presents for whom, the ones that were left in there?
PATSY RAMSEY: I believe for, you know, I held some back for Burke's birthday which is in January.
TRIP DEMUTH: Okay.
TOM HANEY: So that could have been that.
PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah. I don't remember what was in them.
TOM HANEY: Would any of these packages be opened?
PATSY RAMSEY: Probably. Well, see, these came up, I was at FAO Schwartz in New York when JonBenet and I were up there for a trip, and I had them sent back to Boulder and they wrapped them, free gift wrapping. So like right here it looks like I kind of peeled a little back to see what was in it because I couldn't remember what was in them.
TRIP DEMUTH: If the wrapping has been undone partially, that was –
PATSY RAMSEY: I probably would have done that to peek to see what was in there.
TRIP DEMUTH: Okay.
TOM HANEY: Where did you do the bulk of your Christmas shopping, the items you put in there?
PATSY RAMSEY: Well, all of this stuff right here was from FAO Schwartz in New York.
1998 interview, Patsy Ramsey

Would someone kindly explain to me, according to RDI theories, how the murder occurred and the sexual assault and redressing in sequence??

There is urine staining on the longjohns. There is urine staining on the panties. There is blood staining on the panties.

I'm having difficulty understanding how this can be consistent with RDI.

If the parents are the perps, and the head wound was an accident and the cord around the neck merely staging (as per RDI), this seems to be inconsistent with the time and cause of death. If death occured after the head bash and before the cord was applied (and I cannot see how it can be timed any other way to fit with RDI), then the sexual assault that supposedly took place as part of the staging (supposedly using the paint brush) would have to have been done while she was still alive. If the cord was staging, how can she have died from strangulation? The clothing was re-arranged prior to the release of urine at the time of death.

 

[Toltec]

Would someone kindly explain to me, according to RDI theories, how the murder occurred and the sexual assault and redressing in sequence??

There is urine staining on the longjohns. There is urine staining on the panties. There is blood staining on the panties.

I'm having difficulty understanding how this can be consistent with RDI.

If the parents are the perps, and the head wound was an accident and the cord around the neck merely staging (as per RDI), this seems to be inconsistent with the time and cause of death. If death occured after the head bash and before the cord was applied (and I cannot see how it can be timed any other way to fit with RDI), then the sexual assault that supposedly took place as part of the staging (supposedly using the paint brush) would have to have been done while she was still alive. If the cord was staging, how can she have died from strangulation? The clothing was re-arranged prior to the release of urine at the time of death.

The molestation must have taken place between the head blow and strangulation, because I believe a broken part of the paintbrush was used to insert into JonBenet's vagina. Although JonBenet was unconcious, she bled when the paintbrush handle was inserted. She was redressed, placed on her belly, and then strangled to death. That is when the urine was released...

The blood on her vagina does not correspond with the blood on her panties...signs that she was redressed before strangulation.

 

[DeeDee249]

Would someone kindly explain to me, according to RDI theories, how the murder occurred and the sexual assault and redressing in sequence??

There is urine staining on the longjohns. There is urine staining on the panties. There is blood staining on the panties.

I'm having difficulty understanding how this can be consistent with RDI.

If the parents are the perps, and the head wound was an accident and the cord around the neck merely staging (as per RDI), this seems to be inconsistent with the time and cause of death. If death occured after the head bash and before the cord was applied (and I cannot see how it can be timed any other way to fit with RDI), then the sexual assault that supposedly took place as part of the staging (supposedly using the paint brush) would have to have been done while she was still alive. If the cord was staging, how can she have died from strangulation? The clothing was re-arranged prior to the release of urine at the time of death.

I think this has been explained more times than is necessary, but I can't see it being any OTHER way than RDI. The urine release was postmortem. The small amount of blood in the inside of the panty crotch had seeped out from the vaginal injury, and was not copious enough to seep through to the longjohns. Whoever redressed her had already wiped the blood from her thighs and pubic area, and was unaware of the blood on the new panties.
The autopsy noted small amounts of blood still in her vagina, and her being wiped down over such a large area (thighs and pubic area) indicate there had been more blood than what was noted. RDI do not ALL share the exact same theory; I for one believe the head bash came AFTER the scream, which came after whatever caused the vaginal bleeding. She was alive when strangled, the autopsy stated BOTH strangulation and blunt force trauma to the head as causes of death.
The cord could have been both staging AND a cause of death if whoever applied it thought she was already dead.
Shock caused by such a horrific skull fracture can absolutely depress breathing and body temperature and pulse so that to the untrained person, the victim seems dead.
The urine release is the last thing to have occurred in that chain of horrors.

 

[qtc]

The molestation must have taken place between the head blow and strangulation, because I believe a broken part of the paintbrush was used to insert into JonBenet's vagina. Although JonBenet was unconcious, she bled when the paintbrush handle was inserted. She was redressed, placed on her belly, and then strangled to death. That is when the urine was released...

The blood on her vagina does not correspond with the blood on her panties...signs that she was redressed before strangulation.

Toltec, why do you believe that the paintbrush was inserted into JB?
I think you are RDI, correct? Do you believe that she was killed on accident and they covered it up?