If JonBenet's death was an accident...

[MurriFlower]

I doubt that LE would not search the suitcases...there were clothes strewn all over JAR's bed.

You would think so, but this is the BPD! The wording of the interview only refers to the panties in the panty drawer. I've seen no reference to them searching in any other areas for panties or even any mention of looking through the packed clothes. The chances of the Rs leaving for holidays without underwear for all the family is pretty slim. I recall PR did mention that some items were in bags (presumably easier to pack in a limited space), so that might have been what fooled them.

 

[cynic]

So both the panties and longjohns were urine stained and the panties had blood stains. How does this indicate that her panties were changed? They were obviously on her when she died or even earlier if she urinated and emptied her bladder in fear before the fatal blow/strangle. They were not changed after death. How could staging occur prior to the assault or murder?

• You are excluding the very real possibility that JBR was simply presumed to be dead and a number of staging and or “undoing” elements were done under this assumption.

North Carolina Legal News
NC Family Sues For $1 Million After Car Accident Victim Mistaken For Dead

In a horrific news story out of Raleigh, North Carolina, a family is fighting for compensation against a Franklin County and paramedic after family member Larry Green was mistaken for dead by emergency responders at a car accident and left in a body bag in a freezer. The family is seeking $1 million to pay for medical car.
In 2005, then-29-year-old Green was attempting to cross Highway 401 at night when he was involved in a serious pedestrian accident. He was struck by a vehicle and found in the roadway by paramedic. One paramedic could not find a pulse and he was declared dead at the scene of the accident. No one tried to resuscitate him.
Later, County Medical Examiner, 72-year-old J.B. Perdue examined Green’s car accident injuries but ignored several signs that Green was still breathing and alive, including a moving chest and an eye twitch. Only after the man had been in a refrigerator for an hour did a North Carolina Highway Patrolman see another eye twitch.
Though Green is alive, he requires 24-hour care, eats through a tube, and is limited to a nursing home bed. His family would like money for his care as well as for therapy to help him learn to talk and eat on his own.
While the family has reached a settlement with Franklin County, they are still in a legal battle with the paramedics involved. Purdue resigned from his job in 2008.
http://www.brentadams.com/news/nc-f...accident-victim-mistaken-for-dead20091203.cfm

Guelph police Chief Rob Davis has launched an internal investigation after Tuesday's bizzare mix-up at a south end hotel when a woman initially believed to be dead, was later discovered to be alive.
Police say they received a call from a staff member at the Days Inn on Gordon Street, who believed a woman was dead in a room. Police arrived and determined the woman as deceased, sealing the room to protect the scene.
However, police say that forensic investigators later found the woman was alive but with very faint vital signs. She was then taken to the hospital and treated for non-life threatening injuries.
Davis says the incident will be thoroughly investigated and everyone who responded to Tuesday's incident will be questioned.
http://swo.ctv.ca/servlet/an/local/...al-investigation-110112/20110112/?hub=SWOHome

“Resurrected” Man Sues North Carolina Medical Officials for Sending Him to Morgue in Mistaken Death Case
Larry Green’s nightmare in 2005 only began when he was struck by a car while crossing a highway. After he was mistakenly declared dead, he was put into a body bag and sent to the morgue — only to be discovered as alive hours later. His family is now suing the state. Remarkably, this is not a unique case.
The 2 1/2 hours that Green spent as a presumed dead man produced a host of alleged injuries, though both injuries and negligence are likely to be easy to establish in this case. Interestingly, the officials are contesting who is responsible. Perdue said. “Someone else pronounced his death, and the medical examiner is called to investigate the cause and manner of that death. He does not pronounce people dead.” Torts from negligent infliction to emotional distress to negligence to battery should suffice to establish liability.
While it may seem like a plot for some horror film, such mistakes have occurred in other cases. For example, a couple years ago, a sleeping woman was mistaken in British Columbia at a retirement home for her dead roommate. A driver who picks transports the dead from the facility to the morgue didn’t check the woman’s wrist band for identification. The 87-year-old woman was left on a gurney in corridor outside the morgue when a porter saw her move.
Other incidents were referenced by Terra Gerritsen
In a suburb outside Boston, a young woman was discovered dead in her bathtub. The state police were called and they found empty pill bottles beside her. They assumed that her death was due to an accidental overdose, so they zipped her into a body bag and sent her to the morgue. Where, a few hours later, she woke up. As it turns out, being mistaken for dead is not all that rare a phenomenon. I did a news search on Lexis-nexis and discovered case after case of it. In Colorado, a child’s death certificate had just been signed when someone noticed he was breathing. In Georgia, a young man who’d been hit by a car spent a whole night in the morgue refrigerator before someone heard him moving. In New York City, a man was lying on the autopsy table and the pathologist was about to make the first cut when the corpse woke up and grabbed the doctor. It was the doctor who keeled over dead, of a heart attack.
http://jonathanturley.org/2007/12/2...sending-him-to-morgue-in-mistaken-death-case/

The brain is bruised, with possible surface hemorrhage. The patient is unconscious, may exhibit faint pulse, shallow respirations, cool, pale skin, subnormal blood pressure and temperature, and may be incontinent of bowel or bladder.

http://faculty.ksu.edu.sa/73577/Pages/CranialArteritis.aspx

• A weak pulse can be extremely difficult for an average person with no experience to detect on another person. This is further complicated if the person attempting to find a pulse is in a panicked state. This is why a pulse check is no longer included in CPR training for non health care professionals as of the 2005 revision.

The removal of the emphasis on lay rescuers assessing for pulse or signs of circulation for an unresponsive adult victim, instead taking the absence of normal breathing as the key indicator for commencing CPR.
The removal of the protocol in which lay rescuers provide rescue breathing without chest compressions for an adult victim, with all cases such as these being subject to CPR.
Research has shown that lay personnel cannot accurately detect a pulse in about 40% of cases and cannot accurately discern the absence of pulse in about 10%. The pulse check step has been removed from the CPR procedure completely for lay persons and de-emphasized for healthcare professionals.

2005 International Consensus Conference on Cardiopulmonary Resuscitation and Emergency Cardiovascular Care Science

• A number of experts have gone on record stating that JonBenet may well have been alive following the head injury for up to about an hour.

Dr. Spitz was joined (in Boulder for an investigation) by Tom Faure, the coroner's chief investigator, and Weinheimer (Dr. Carey Weinheimer). The group studied the cellulose substance that was found in victim's vagina and determined that it was consistent with the wood from the broken shard of the paintbrush handle used in the garroting. They also found that JonBenet had sustained a very powerful blow to the head, which, though it did not cause external bleeding, caused intracerebral bleeding that would quickly prove fatal. They could not determine if the head blow preceded that garroting with scientifc certainty, though the head blow, in all probability, had come first. Since the head wound was fully developed, this meant that the victim had survived for a period of time.
Cracking more cases: the forensic science of solving crimes, Henry Lee, page 222

Autopsy consulter Tom Henry substantiates this hypothesis. He believes JonBenet may have survived unconscious for 15 minutes after an initial blow to the head before being strangled.
"The fact that she's got this extensive injury described as a blood clot in the scalp indicates a little longer period of time that she had to survive ... a little more blood pumping under pressure for a longer period of time," he said.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,25606,00.html

JonBenet Ramsey was sexually assaulted, suffered a tremendous blow to the head and was strangled as much as an hour later, a respected forensic pathologist said Tuesday.
…
The blow to her head -- which Wright is convinced, was not from a golf club but more likely a blunt object such as a baseball bat or heavy flashlight -- came first, Wright said.
"She was whopped on the head a long time before she was strangled,'' said Wright. "That might or might not have rendered her unconscious. But this is not anything that kills her right away.''
He said 20 to 60 minutes elapsed between the skull fracture and the strangulation.
The reason he's so sure, said Wright, is that details revealed about the brain injury, "the swelling, the bleeding here and there, they take a while to happen.''
…
And that wouldn't have happened, he said, if she was already dead.
"I think, probably, the head injury came first, because the strangulation resulted in petechial (pinpoint) hemorrhages'' in areas such as the eyelids, Kirschner said.
"I think she died when she was strangled. The cerebral hemorrhaging and bruising of the brain did occur first. But she was still alive when strangled.''
July 16, 1997, Charlie Brennan, Rocky Mountain News

• This type of scenario allows for much of what was found.For example it would account for the ligature furrow, petechial hemorrhaging etc.It would also mean that if JBR’s panties were removed while she was alive and replaced with the huge size 12 panties, post mortem voiding would account for the urine staining and would likely have gone unnoticed if she was wrapped in the blanket at the time.

She did not have her panties changed, there was no reason to. It did nothing to diminish the crime. There were a few drops of blood, that is all.
It seems RDI is trying to suggest that there was more blood on the panties that they are also suggesting were swapped for the ones she was found in. Not sure why that is.
It is obvious to me that she put these panties on herself on Christmas day and these are the same ones that were on her when she was found.

• You make it seem as if there was the same level of blood as from a scratched finger.While this was far from the bloodiest crime scene, I do believe that the evidence suggests that there was enough blood present to warrant not only wiping but redressing. As I outlined in my thread on staging and “undoing,” leaving a bloodied corpse would be of no concern to an intruder.

In addition, JonBenét’s underpants bore stains that appeared to be blood. The corresponding areas of her skin in the pubic area, however, showed no matching stains. The coroner told the police that the blood smears on the skin and the fibers found in the folds of the labia indicated that the child’s pubic area had been wiped with a cloth. The blood smears also contained traces of fibers.
Perfect Murder, Perfect Town, Lawrence Schiller, page 57

On the anterior aspect of the perineum, along the edges of closure of the labia majora, is a small amount of dried blood. A similar small amount of dried and semifluid blood is present on the skin of the fourchette and in the vestibule.
JonBenet autopsy report

"In the presence of Det. Arndt, Det. Tom Trujillo of the Boulder Police Department, used a black florescent light the view the body including the pubic area of the victim in an attempt to observe the possible presence of semen or seminal fluid. (Your Affiant knows from previous experience and training that substances such as semen or seminal fluid, not visible to the unaided eye, may become visible when viewed under a black florescent light). Det. Arndt stated that she observed florescent areas of the upper inner and outer left thigh, as well as the upper and inner right thigh. Det. Arndt stated that her observations of the result of the black florescent light observation is consistent with the presence of semen or seminal fluid"
"Det. Arndt informed Your Affiant that she observed Dr. Meyer swab these florescent areas. Dr. Meyer was also observed by Det. Arndt to obtain vaginal, oral and anal swabs from the child's body"
"Det. Arndt informed Your Affiant that Dr. Meyer stated to her that he observed red stains in the crotch area of the panties that the child was wearing at the time that the child's body was subjected to the external visual examination. Dr. Meyer stated to Det. Arndt that the red stain appeared to be consistent with blood. Det. Arndt further informed Your Affiant that Dr. Meyer stated to her that after examining the panties (as described above), he observed the exterior pubic area of the child's body located next to the areas of the panties containing the red stains and found no visible reddish stains in the area. Dr. Meyer stated to Det. Arndt that his opinion is that the evidence observed is consistent with the child's public area having been wiped by a cloth."
Search Warrant, Dec. 27, 1996

LAB CLASS XX???-2136(?)-4153(?) SECTION: DNA TESTING
AGENCY(?) NAME – CD0878136 – F2 ACBLDER(?)

EXTRACTED(?) BY: blacked out EXTRACTION DATE: 123196(?)
ABSTRACT(X) AFA(?) ?/? ???
RAMSEY, PATSY W/F
RAMSEY, JOHN W/M
RAMSEY, JONBENET W/F

Two lines BLACKED OUT
DATE COMPLETED/JANUARY 13, 1997
EXTRACT(?) DESCRIPTION
#5A,5B# (?) Bloodstains from shirt
#7 Bloodstains from panties
#14B Bloodstain ????? from JonBenet Ramsey
#14J DNA? Or Swab? with Saliva????
#14L, #14M Right and Left hand fingernails from JonBenet Ramsey
#15A, #15B Samples from tape
Bloodstains from white blanket
#17A, #17C Bloodstains from nightgown??
#13A, #13B Semen ??? stain from black blanket
Bloodstain Standard from John Andrew Ramsey

 

[cynic]

I just noticed the picture of the bloomies in their package posted by cynic. I see that the middle pair have been replaced upsidedown? This has to be the Wednesday pair. I believe that she could easily choose the Wednesday pair. Certainly she knew that they each had the day of the week written on them, and Wednesday is the only W day. She was six and was familiar with letters and numbers, it's not as if she was blind!!

She would have to blind to wear panties that large.

I don't believe that she was ever re-dressed, but assuming she was, there seems to be no more reason for the parents to have done it rather than an IDI. Perhaps even more, as an IDI might want a souvenir.

An intruder could care less about the state of JBR. A parent would likely feel the need to “undo.”
[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=126539"]The “Undoing” of the Ramseys. - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame]

 

[joeskidbeck]

Excellent post, Cynic. I have long believed the Ramseys thought JonBenet was dead after the head bash. In a small way, I guess Patsy did have to pay for her part in this. She had to live another ten years knowing they really did murder their child.

 

[Cappy]

Oh, get out.

The Ramseys didn't kill their daughter. Either an intruder did it (which I think highly likely) or their son Burke did it and they covered it up.

On the other hand...perhaps John's eldest son did it? After all, his DNA was found on the blanket in the suitcase under the basement window...wasn't it?

This case is so old I've forgotten or misplaced my notes on it. However, I remain unconvinced that JBR's parents actually killed her.

 

[SunnieRN]

UKGuy, I stopped asking certain posters for links or evidence, as it was never acknowledged. I know that Patsy did not pack size 12 underwear. That would have been inappropriate, due to the fact that they wouldn't fit her well enough to stay up!

I sometimes feel the need to point out inappropriate statements, written as possible facts, to try and keep the conversation straight and to not let inaccuracies be quoted as fact, down the road!

 

[MurriFlower]

• You are excluding the very real possibility that JBR was simply presumed to be dead and a number of staging and or “undoing” elements were done under this assumption.

• 
  
  If there was "staging and undoing" (and this was important for some reason) and then she was subsequently found to be still alive, well there were six more pairs of panties to hand, so it would be no trouble to "undo" it again. This still doesn't give me any clues as to why RDI believes the parents, and only the parents, would change her panties? Bloodstains were on the nightgown, and it appears from that list you posted, may have also been on the white top and the blanket (although we haven't had these confirmed). Urine stains were on the longjohns and panties. Really, if it was an attempt to be tidy then it failed miserably.
  
  If the bloodstains did not correspond with the blood on the body, then this is no more damning of the parents than of an IDI. You need to also understand that one or more of these bloodspots contained the IDI's DNA. Or do you want to say the blood was on the panties from the factory worker who was also employed in the same factory that made the longjohns??
  
  

  • A number of experts have gone on record stating that JonBenet may well have been alive following the head injury for up to about an hour.

  • 
    
    Hmm, well an equal number of similarly qualified experts probably disagree. It would seem that a massive head injury that shows no external signs and wasn't even noticed until the scalp was removed, would have occurred very close to her death if not at the same time.
    
    

  Dr. Spitz was joined (in Boulder for an investigation) by Tom Faure, the coroner's chief investigator, and Weinheimer (Dr. Carey Weinheimer). The group studied the cellulose substance that was found in victim's vagina and determined that it was consistent with the wood from the broken shard of the paintbrush handle used in the garroting.

  
  
  Ok, many thanks for this. I'm not sure if that is good enough evidence to say it was from the same paint brush but I'll take that as a fairly good indication. This of course means (refer to my previous list of the sequence of death), that the paintbrush was broken prior to the sexual assault. Whether the actual broken paintbrush was inserted or if it was the hand/glove of the abuser (who broke the paintbrush) is for us to speculate.
  
  

  They also found that JonBenet had sustained a very powerful blow to the head, which, though it did not cause external bleeding, caused intracerebral bleeding that would quickly prove fatal. They could not determine if the head blow preceded that garroting with scientifc certainty, though the head blow, in all probability, had come first. Since the head wound was fully developed, this meant that the victim had survived for a period of time.

  
  Ah, yes, 'would quickly prove fatal' but she survived for 'a period of time'. Very specific LOL. Sounds like experts trying to sound as if they know what they are talking about but failing miserably.
  
  
  

  Cracking more cases: the forensic science of solving crimes, Henry Lee, page 222
  
  Autopsy consulter Tom Henry substantiates this hypothesis. He believes JonBenet may have survived unconscious for 15 minutes after an initial blow to the head before being strangled.
  "The fact that she's got this extensive injury described as a blood clot in the scalp indicates a little longer period of time that she had to survive ... a little more blood pumping under pressure for a longer period of time," he said.

  
  Ah, now 15 minutes max. That sounds more likely.
  
  
  

  JonBenet Ramsey was sexually assaulted, suffered a tremendous blow to the head and was strangled as much as an hour later, a respected forensic pathologist said Tuesday.
  …
  The blow to her head -- which Wright is convinced, was not from a golf club but more likely a blunt object such as a baseball bat or heavy flashlight -- came first, Wright said.
  "She was whopped on the head a long time before she was strangled,'' said Wright. "That might or might not have rendered her unconscious. But this is not anything that kills her right away.''
  He said 20 to 60 minutes elapsed between the skull fracture and the strangulation.
  The reason he's so sure, said Wright, is that details revealed about the brain injury, "the swelling, the bleeding here and there, they take a while to happen.''
  …
  And that wouldn't have happened, he said, if she was already dead.
  "I think, probably, the head injury came first, because the strangulation resulted in petechial (pinpoint) hemorrhages'' in areas such as the eyelids, Kirschner said.
  "I think she died when she was strangled. The cerebral hemorrhaging and bruising of the brain did occur first. But she was still alive when strangled.''
  July 16, 1997, Charlie Brennan, Rocky Mountain News

  
  
  Hmm 20 to 60 minutes.
  

  • This type of scenario allows for much of what was found.For example it would account for the ligature furrow, petechial hemorrhaging etc.It would also mean that if JBR’s panties were removed while she was alive and replaced with the huge size 12 panties, post mortem voiding would account for the urine staining and would likely have gone unnoticed if she was wrapped in the blanket at the time.

  
  Yes, but I think there seems to be more consensus that the two were close together 15-20 mins, rather than 'a long time' ie 60 mins. From what I understand, the blanket had no urine stain, but apparently had some blood stains according to your post.
  
  So, as far as sequence of events were concerned, I think we can place the them in the following order.
  
  paint brush broken, which was before the
  sexual assault, which was before the
  re-dressing, which was before the
  strangulation, which was before the
  wrapping in blanket.
  
  The head bash occurred before the strangulation, but we don't know how it slots into the above, whether it was before or after the sexual assault.
  
  Do you agree??
  
  
  

  • You make it seem as if there was the same level of blood as from a scratched finger.While this was far from the bloodiest crime scene, I do believe that the evidence suggests that there was enough blood present to warrant not only wiping but redressing. As I outlined in my thread on staging and “undoing,” leaving a bloodied corpse would be of no concern to an intruder.

  • 
    
    Well, we don't know what the intruder had in mind and how his mind works. If a parent could conceivably be concerned by a bloodied scene, then so might a wacko intruder.
    
    Just as a side issue, I don't know if you have ever looked at your posts from this side cynic, because replying to them is a nightmare. You have so many fonts and lists and bolds and italics and other fancy stuff that I get lost. Perhaps I could suggest simplifying??

 

[UKGuy]

She would have to blind to wear panties that large.

I don't believe that she was ever re-dressed, but assuming she was, there seems to be no more reason for the parents to have done it rather than an IDI. Perhaps even more, as an IDI might want a souvenir.

An intruder could care less about the state of JBR. A parent would likely feel the need to “undo.”
[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=126539"]The “Undoing” of the Ramseys. - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame]

cynic,
Those size-12's look huge!

I don't believe that she was ever re-dressed, but assuming she was, there seems to be no more reason for the parents to have done it rather than an IDI. Perhaps even more, as an IDI might want a souvenir.

Oh wow, no evidence offered for the assumed presence of size-12's, next the intruder removes them as a souvenir? You have to wonder what the day job is, are they maybe still at school, or do they not read the JonBenet' literature?

Not only were no Bloomingdale size-12's found in the house, but the Ramseys returned the remaining pairs to the BPD!

Is this poster suggesting a Ramsey was the intruder?

 

[UKGuy]

UKGuy, I stopped asking certain posters for links or evidence, as it was never acknowledged. I know that Patsy did not pack size 12 underwear. That would have been inappropriate, due to the fact that they wouldn't fit her well enough to stay up!

I sometimes feel the need to point out inappropriate statements, written as possible facts, to try and keep the conversation straight and to not let inaccuracies be quoted as fact, down the road!

SunnieRN,
Well if you do not get the evidence then the poster simply gets away making the said claims e.g. We still do not have any IDI explanation for the wine-cellar staging?

Why should that be: because there was no intruder. The intruder is a Ramsey/Smit fabrication.

I sometimes feel the need to point out inappropriate statements, written as possible facts, to try and keep the conversation straight and to not let inaccuracies be quoted as fact, down the road!

Totally Agree!


.
.

 

[cynic]

If there was "staging and undoing" (and this was important for some reason) and then she was subsequently found to be still alive, well there were six more pairs of panties to hand, so it would be no trouble to "undo" it again.

The blood seepage and post mortem release of urine may simply have gone unnoticed; the average person would be unaware that this is even possible.
The coroner indicates the size of the two blood spots, and they are small (up to ½ inch.) The urine staining may have been relatively small as well, we don’t know.

This still doesn't give me any clues as to why RDI believes the parents, and only the parents, would change her panties?

I believe I outlined the reasons in the thread devoted to that:
[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=126539"]The “Undoing” of the Ramseys. - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame]

The probability increases dramatically if you consider that PR was caught lying about this during questioning.
[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=124291"]The oversized Bloomingdale’s panties. - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame]

Bloodstains were on the nightgown, and it appears from that list you posted, may have also been on the white top and the blanket (although we haven't had these confirmed). Urine stains were on the longjohns and panties. Really, if it was an attempt to be tidy then it failed miserably.

We don’t know the size of these stains, or the specific location. The person doing the staging/undoing may have had some blood on their hands which transferred to these items and was unnoticed.

If the bloodstains did not correspond with the blood on the body, then this is no more damning of the parents than of an IDI.

Really? This indicates redressing which points to a family member.

You need to also understand that one or more of these bloodspots contained the IDI's DNA. Or do you want to say the blood was on the panties from the factory worker who was also employed in the same factory that made the longjohns??

I have never argued the “factory worker” theory; feel free to search my previous posts.

Hmm, well an equal number of similarly qualified experts probably disagree. It would seem that a massive head injury that shows no external signs and wasn't even noticed until the scalp was removed, would have occurred very close to her death if not at the same time.

I have listed my sources. They are eminently qualified experts in the field. You may (and probably will) discount them.

Ok, many thanks for this. I'm not sure if that is good enough evidence to say it was from the same paint brush but I'll take that as a fairly good indication. This of course means (refer to my previous list of the sequence of death), that the paintbrush was broken prior to the sexual assault. Whether the actual broken paintbrush was inserted or if it was the hand/glove of the abuser (who broke the paintbrush) is for us to speculate.

I agree that either digital insertion or insertion of the handle is a possibility.
This does not, however, discount the theory that some RDI hold that JAR/BR/JR was molesting JBR that night and subsequent to that event, the paintbrush handle was inserted to create a more significant injury in an attempt to cover indications of chronic abuse such as erosion of the hymen.

So, as far as sequence of events were concerned, I think we can place the them in the following order.

With respect to sequencing the events, I believe that the BPD probably(?) has enough evidence in the case file to do a credible job; I simply don’t believe that we do.
Moreover, while I am in the RDI camp, I personally don’t have a set theory with respect to this case, although I believe that PR would have been the easiest to prosecute.

Well, we don't know what the intruder had in mind and how his mind works. If a parent could conceivably be concerned by a bloodied scene, then so might a wacko intruder.

No, I once again refer you to:
[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=126539"]The “Undoing” of the Ramseys. - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame]

Just as a side issue, I don't know if you have ever looked at your posts from this side cynic, because replying to them is a nightmare. You have so many fonts and lists and bolds and italics and other fancy stuff that I get lost. Perhaps I could suggest simplifying??

I also deal with this occasionally with some posts, and I now strip all formatting from a person’s post before replying. You can do this by cutting and pasting into a program which does not recognize complex formatting, such as Notepad, or use the “Paste Special” feature combined with the “Unformatted Text” option which many word processing programs have to do the same job.

 

[cynic]

cynic,
Those size-12's look huge!

Yes, they are striking images.
PR wouldn’t dress JBR in panties this large and I don’t believe that JonBenet would dress herself in them.
Jayelles, over at FFJ, had her daughter try them on, and her daughter couldn’t help but laugh.

my daughter laughed when I showed her the BIG KNICKERS for the first time. I called her into my study and held out one pair to watch her reaction. She looked at them and started giggling
…
When I asked her to try them on she found it hilarious - a big joke. I can assure you that there is no way she would wear them. They look ridiculous and would be extremely uncomfortable.
…
It was important to me to watch my daughter's reactions carefully on this because she's the same age, height and weight as Jonbenet was when she died and I knew I wouldn't get another opportunity to try this experiment out with any degree of validity.
[ame="http://www.forumsforjustice.org/forums/showpost.php?p=106790&postcount=48"]Forums For Justice - View Single Post - The Gigantic (Girls Size 12-14) "Bloomies" Underwear Found On JonBenet[/ame]

 

[Chewy]

My husband has a set of smaller underwear. It's not the hanes briefs kind, much less material. He wears a 38 waist. He's a big guy 6 feet. My son has actually worn his underwear to school by mistake and I've seen it in the laundry. He's also worn them to bed.

The kind of arguments about this case are quite shocking to read. To say "I don't believe she'd do that" when you have absolutely no clue who or what you are talking about is very very strange and sad.

You probably wouldn't think that my son would go out and pick his dad's underwear. He did and still does.

 

[cynic]

My husband has a set of smaller underwear. It's not the hanes briefs kind, much less material. He wears a 38 waist. He's a big guy 6 feet. My son has actually worn his underwear to school by mistake and I've seen it in the laundry. He's also worn them to bed.

The kind of arguments about this case are quite shocking to read. To say "I don't believe she'd do that" when you have absolutely no clue who or what you are talking about is very very strange and sad.

You probably wouldn't think that my son would go out and pick his dad's underwear. He did and still does.

Well, as you know, there are some differences between boys and girls.
Threads regarding this issue have been around for years on various forums and I have never read even a single post about someone saying their daughter would wear panties this oversized.
I have read a few posts about mothers trying this experiment on their daughters and it being met with laughter.
There has never been a single photo of JonBenet wearing anything other than appropriately fitting clothing.
And, BTW, would you lie about it to investigators like Patsy did?
[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=124291"]The oversized Bloomingdale’s panties. - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame]

 

[Toltec]

#1...we know this so-called intruder did not bring those humongous panties with him/her....Patsy's lawyers turned in the remaining package of panties.

#2...we know JonBenet soiled her play pants before changing into her Gap outfit...why aren't there any fecal stains on her gigantic panties?

#3...if MF claims the DOW panties were already packed in a suitcase...then why would JB leave her bedroom, enter JAR's room, then rummage through the suitcase looking for those specific panties??? No child would bother to do that.

 

[Chewy]

I find that stil very sad. You have no idea what this child was like and to speculate about what she would or would not do is just outrageous.

ANY PARENT knows that sometimes kids do things we are completely surprised by and wonder why they did it. It's completely inauthentic to present this line of thinking as a logical foray into the topic. It's simply mean spirited gossip.

BTW I have a five year old niece and she also wears her big sisters underwear because she wants to be like her. Should I go on and tell you more? Or is it still and impossibility of the universe that a child you have never met and know absolutely nothing about could do something that might surprise you?

JonBenet was a pagent girl as well. Who knows if she ever tried on pagent costumes a little bigger etc.

 

[cynic]

I find that stil very sad. You have no idea what this child was like and to speculate about what she would or would not do is just outrageous.

ANY PARENT knows that sometimes kids do things we are completely surprised by and wonder why they did it. It's completely inauthentic to present this line of thinking as a logical foray into the topic. It's simply mean spirited gossip.

BTW I have a five year old niece and she also wears her big sisters underwear because she wants to be like her. Should I go on and tell you more? Or is it still and impossibility of the universe that a child you have never met and know absolutely nothing about could do something that might surprise you?

JonBenet was a pagent girl as well. Who knows if she ever tried on pagent costumes a little bigger etc.

Have you read PR's statements about the issue in the thread below?

[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=124291"]The oversized Bloomingdale’s panties. - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame]

 

[UKGuy]

I find that stil very sad. You have no idea what this child was like and to speculate about what she would or would not do is just outrageous.

ANY PARENT knows that sometimes kids do things we are completely surprised by and wonder why they did it. It's completely inauthentic to present this line of thinking as a logical foray into the topic. It's simply mean spirited gossip.

BTW I have a five year old niece and she also wears her big sisters underwear because she wants to be like her. Should I go on and tell you more? Or is it still and impossibility of the universe that a child you have never met and know absolutely nothing about could do something that might surprise you?

JonBenet was a pagent girl as well. Who knows if she ever tried on pagent costumes a little bigger etc.

Chewy,

Nobody here is saying these things never happen. We probably all accept your what you are saying is true.

Its just that in the JonBenet case none of the above explanations match the evidence.

the wine-cellar is a staged crime-scene and for some reason, big mistake too, someone decided to dress JonBenet in those size-12's. They were brand new clean on her, the remaining 6-pairs went missing.

We know no intruder removed the size-12's since the parents returned them at a later date. We also know the police searched the house for the size-12's and found none!

There are pictures of JonBenet at the White's party and if she had been wearing those size-12's then her velvet pants may have developed a VPL?

Its not that we cannot ever consider JonBenet dressing herself in those size-12-s, for whatever reason, its simply her mothers statements regarding the size-12's which are at odds with any explanation such as your own.

We have been over nearly every explanation for the size-12's, and none including that of an intruder tell us why they were used, except for one. And that is for staging purposes!

.

 

[DeeDee249]

My husband has a set of smaller underwear. It's not the hanes briefs kind, much less material. He wears a 38 waist. He's a big guy 6 feet. My son has actually worn his underwear to school by mistake and I've seen it in the laundry. He's also worn them to bed.

The kind of arguments about this case are quite shocking to read. To say "I don't believe she'd do that" when you have absolutely no clue who or what you are talking about is very very strange and sad.

You probably wouldn't think that my son would go out and pick his dad's underwear. He did and still does.

Just as you have in your own signature line, our posts are our OPINIONS. Do you not understand this? NONE of us, including you, knows the truth. We were not there, nor do we have access to all the evidence in the case- there is MUCH more that has never been made public.
EACH of has the right to form opinions about the case, hopefully based on research. That it what the forums are FOR. As sad as our theories seem to you, we are just as sad to believe that an innocent child died at the hands of someone she knew and loved. And we are sad they got away with it.

 

[eleven]

That "bloomies experiment" has always creeped me out....the appendages that are supposed to be "legs" are jutted so forward and so far apart....not a natural positioning at all. It has never held any water with me, and maybe if the fake body was positioned in a more realistic fashion, it may hold more weight with me.

Either way, any female knows that by simply rolling up the waist portion of any too-large garment will produce a much more fitting garment. When I want to wear my mid-calf length skirt as a miniskirt, I simply roll up the waist and voila! I'm not giving credence to either side by making this statement, just saying that those panties could have very well fit snugly with a few overturns at the elastic waist. This is a well known "trick" used by many females and with JB being a pageant girl with all her costumes, she undoubtedly knew how to make things fit by rolling them up att the waist. It's possible.

If the "bloomies experiment" was done with a more realistic positioning of the body (even just a little bit!) and the panties rolled up at the waist, one would be hard pressed to even know that there was a difference between the size 6 and size 12.

 

[Agatha_C]

My husband has a set of smaller underwear. It's not the hanes briefs kind, much less material. He wears a 38 waist. He's a big guy 6 feet. My son has actually worn his underwear to school by mistake and I've seen it in the laundry. He's also worn them to bed.

The kind of arguments about this case are quite shocking to read. To say "I don't believe she'd do that" when you have absolutely no clue who or what you are talking about is very very strange and sad.

You probably wouldn't think that my son would go out and pick his dad's underwear. He did and still does.

First of all, we dont know the age or size of your son to compare whether its odd that he can wear his fathers undies. Secondly, you might not find it odd that a petite 6 y/o was in size 12 panties when she died, but I dont understand how you dont find it odd that they were the only pair in the entire house and the mother claims there should have been at least 6 more pair in her drawer...

Chewy, it isnt the ridiculous size of the panties that matters, its the lie. Please be more informed on the JBR case and posters, before you draw your guns.