If you agree or disagree with the verdict, let us know why

[gngr~snap]

I understand what you're saying, but even with their "triggers" they are not in control of it.

I understand that at different times they could appear to be living a very normal life, very friendly, charming, etc. But, there is a point where they don't have control over themselves anymore. IMO, Casey hasn't exhibited the lack of control, I haven't seen a trigger for her yet.

This is kind of like alcoholism, alcoholics don't wake up and decide this is what they want to do with every day of their lives. The disease at some point takes over and this is what they have because they can't control it. Psychopaths don't just desire to kill people, etc. There is a point where the disease takes over and they don't have the control anymore. If there was a way to treat this, I'm sure the world would be a happier place. Unfortunately there doesn't seem to be a way to treat this amongst other disorders.

Maybe she does have some, maybe I'm completely wrong in buying the accident theory; but up to this point I don't believe she's psychopathic or sociopathic.

You may be right! psycho/sociopaths are "in control". They may not give a hoot, but ya betcha they know exactly what they are doing!

"Loosing control" would be a secondary symptom of a psychopath- like alcohol or drugs. Even anger control but not a primary one.

It's not like they don't know right from wrong. They choose to act the way they do.
I have been told this by more than one psychiatrist.
They act like they do beacuse they can get away with it. When an aquaintance puts their foot down they advance to their next target.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20053752
psychopaths understand the distinction between right and wrong, but do not care about such knowledge, or the consequences that ensue from their morally inappropriate behavior.
http://www.correctionsone.com/corre...chers-find-psychopaths-know-right-from-wrong/

After surveying 67 inmates, psychologists at the University of New Mexico have found that psychopaths know right from wrong but do not act on that knowledge

 

[logicalgirl]

I'll buy that. There is a sociopath in my recent past (I am sure this has been guessed by many with my ID on this site) who exhibited the SAME child-like characteristics. Whether or not it was because of some traumatic childhood experience, I don't know. Everything that came out of her mouth was b.s. so even though she spoke of sexual abuse as a child, I don't know if it was the truth. My inclination in that case is to conclude it was part of the seduction, to disarm and appear to be innocent.

And to divide and conquer, as in protection, to keep people apart and stop them from comparing stories and histories......It's a power thing, because after all, what kind of person questions whether or not a person has been sexually abused? It's hidden, it goes on for years and not one tells, or if they do tell, people don't believe them, blah blah, ( all true for the actually abused) but what better way to seek sympathy and protection from the object of your "desire"?

I'm quite sure CFCA didn't want Lee to tell JG what she was really like - that she lied for no reason, that she stole money constantly, that she couldn't be trusted. CFCA thought she'd found a meal ticket and a ride to freedom, and what better way to keep those two men in her life disliking each other and never comparing stories? Bait, fish, fish, bait...the con's dream....

 

[logicalgirl]

You may be right! psycho/sociopaths are "in control". They may not give a hoot, but ya betcha they know exactly what they are doing!

"Loosing control" would be a secondary symptom of a psychopath- like alcohol or drugs. Even anger control but not a primary one.

It's not like they don't know right from wrong. They choose to act the way they do.
I have been told this by more than one psychiatrist.
They act like they do beacuse they can get away with it. When an aquaintance puts their foot down they advance to their next target.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20053752
psychopaths understand the distinction between right and wrong, but do not care about such knowledge, or the consequences that ensue from their morally inappropriate behavior.
http://www.correctionsone.com/corre...chers-find-psychopaths-know-right-from-wrong/

After surveying 67 inmates, psychologists at the University of New Mexico have found that psychopaths know right from wrong but do not act on that knowledge

I've read that sociopaths use anger and "feigned loss of control" as a manipulative behavior to gain control of a situation and divert attention for the real issue..Example - CFCA talking to her parents in the jail video and throwing a fit because "no one listens to her". ("Because she told the LE the truth and no one listens blah blah and that's why they can't find Caylee or Zenaida") She knew exactly what she was doing. She was "not talking" about what the truth actually was. IMO

 

[Kat]

I just wanted to add what I think is going on with Casey (MOO).

Casey appears to be highly immature to me, childlike. She lies without realizing the consequences attached to the lies. She craves attention like neglected children do. She appears to be giddy @ inappropriate times, like a child excited for Christmas morning. She steals money without realizing that taking money from someone puts that person in a bind, and usually puts her parents in a bind because they're the ones paying it back (like money is just paper to her and there's an endless supply of paper). I could go on, but I'm sure the idea is understood.

From what I've learned in mental health, when someone has a traumatic event in their childhood happen to them (doesn't have to be sexual abuse, just something their child brain considers traumatic), their mind has a hard time developing further. The brain kinda "sticks" to that moment and new things aren't learned until this person can rationalize the trauma to understand it. Usually you need a lot of counseling to get passed it.

This is just MOO :innocent:

I have a different perception of KC and her behaviors that we have seen. I'd like to use your post to reflect those perceptions but I'm not attacking you, I respect your opinions and even though we disagree on this point---I'm cool with that

I think she lies without caring about the consequences if those lies in relation to how they effect the other person to whom she is lying. Although some of her lies seem to appear innocuous and benign in nature there appears to be a general motivation behind them and IMHO that motivation is passive agressiveness and/or manipulation for control (after all if the other person does not know the truth of the matter being discussed that puts the liar in a superior controlling postion). Superior postion?: look good to others, look better than others, have more than others, have what others possess---those lines of thinking. Oh and to get out of or stay out of trouble but still getting the thing or experience they coveted.

Yes her affect is off. Way off. So far off the charts that indicates to me that even though the first set of dr's that did her eval (which those doc's did not directly interview her they eval'ed her through her statements and that's not an appropriate eval IMHO and the docs that did her competency weren't looking for mental illnesses they were looking for if she could assist her own defense---yes or no question) that she could be suffering from an Axis I or she could (very possibly) have one or more personality disorders. Either way, that has no impact on her culpability in any crime(s) she had commited.

It's not that she is incapable of realizing the consequences of her actions when stealing IMHO it is she doesn't care how they impact others. She has a need and that need (whatever she thinks it is) must be filled and any means neccessary and can be justified her. Indicating to me she is very ego centered. Me, Mine, what I want is above and more important than any you or yours.

I don't disagree that a childhood trauma might cause stagnation in the maturation of the emotional state of a person. That's always a possiblity. But, rather instead of impacting the entire person it usually impacts portions of their personality and that trauma that has been unresolved will need a trigger.

An off topic example: Me. I rarely if ever share my personal life but I'll do so now. I had several experiences that were connected to one another that were extremely traumatic for me. I function just fine. Except: I had a panic attack about two years ago. Why? It was on a mountain and it hit me like a freight train. I don't have a phobia of heights, but I identified I was afraid of falling. That was the main emotion during the panic attack. Why? Because to fall means that I would be completely out of control to the elements effecting me (falling off the side of a mountain and plummeting to death) and that harkens back to those experiences that I had as a child whereby I was in a situation where I had no control over me. I didn't realize that quickly. I had to reflect deeply for a long time to figure out that there were external happenings going on at that time that triggered that.

IMHO KC is more than likely very aware of her actions and behaviors and how they impact other's around her. She just doesn't care. JMHO

(Sorry for the long post!)

 

[HatesSociopaths]

Why or why does everyone keep leaving off the thousands and thousands of dollars she stole over quite a few months from her family while living with them and pretending she had a job?:great: That kind of manipulative behaviour is part of their everyday life.

And I don't believe any one thing "triggered" CFCA on June 16th. Caylee had been cramping her style for quite some time, she was now learning to speak and express herself and since sociopaths can do things just as easily dead cold as they can do in a temper, why wouldn't she just say to Caylee that day - well you are just too much trouble - and kill her? She didn't give anything else much thought so why do we assume she "had feelings" for Caylee? I mean - I know we "want" to believe that - but is it necessarily true, when she was alone with her and not being an extension of her "See what a good mother I am" personality?

That's a completely possible scenario as well - in fact you reminded me of serial killer Joel Rifkin's account of his murders. What it comes down to IMO is there are degrees of evil and there indeed is a level where no trigger is necessary!

Here is Rifkin's interview by the way (graphic):

http://www.youtube.com/user/prettylilpuppet#p/c/CD64F074BFF64754/2/C2kjkBXCxdA

 

[gngr~snap]

BBM

Casey's lies triggered them to "deeply" investigate her friends, why not deeply investigate the people who they both have lived with all of her life, especially given the fact that she moved out the day Caylee went missing.

I'm taking the sexual abuse out of the equation because although I feel it probably happened, there isn't really anything to back up my beliefs on that.

We know she told a few people prior to all of this. She also stated in a letter to Robyn in jail she had gone to therapy at 18 for "stuff"-
GA or LA it happened it didn't... don't know, but if there are records that date back to the time she was PG it would be very damning! I have always felt JB had an ace up his sleeve and "someone" knew it!

*Does anyone know when the transcripts of the trial could be released?

 

[2door73chevy]

Thanks. One point that I see as a common thread in your responses is an idea that psychopathy is a sort of 24/7 manifestation, not in the control of a psychopath. I'd like to give my :twocents: on this.

There are famous examples of how this is not the case. Serial killers like John Wayne Gacy and Ted Bundy were able to carry on respected lives while running up their murder total. Gacy was a model citizen in prison, loved by all for his impressive ability to cook and use spices. He got released from prison for good conduct, and then promptly began murdering women who he felt were promiscuous, 29 in all.

The psychopath is VERY good at fooling people.

There are triggers for their rage, different with each one. Bundy saw his ex-girlfriend in the women he killed, they all looked like her. Gacy was harboring suppressed homosexual/transexual urges that his father smothered down during his youth, and took out his aggression on promiscuous women. They all have their triggers. And then, as you point out, they are controlled by their mental illness and can't restrain doing the deed.

With Casey, the runway up to this incident is brief and difficult to analyze. The major clues to what kind of person she is are of course her pathological lying, lack of empathy, irresponsibility and coldheartedness displayed during the jailhouse conversations.

MOO of course but something triggered Casey's psychopathy on that fateful day of June 16. There was the fight with CA the night before, and ultimately this led to a desire to get even. I also think it was relevant that TL had stated to her that he only wanted boys, not a girl. Susan Smith killed her two boys for a similar reason.

I have to ask this...Do you think Casey is the same as Gacy or Bundy?

 

[gngr~snap]

I've read that sociopaths use anger and "feigned loss of control" as a manipulative behavior to gain control of a situation and divert attention for the real issue..Example - CFCA talking to her parents in the jail video and throwing a fit because "no one listens to her". ("Because she told the LE the truth and no one listens blah blah and that's why they can't find Caylee or Zenaida") She knew exactly what she was doing. She was "not talking" about what the truth actually was. IMO

it's manipulation and bullying... fist through the wall, slamming cabinets, doors sreaming...
- it upsets whatever "tone" of the moment is. Either because they have been excluded or choose not to participate. OR they are exerting thier "control" on the person because they aren't the center of attention. They HATE harmony and upset it at all costs.

Whatever is going on, they make people so uncomfortable they leave and may not EVER return. They win.

 

[gngr~snap]

I have to ask this...Do you think Casey is the same as Gacy or Bundy?

You didn't ask me but... us women... no one really suspects us.
Initially, I should have listened to my gut from the get go!

not to start an off topic!!!
BUT Nicole Ganguzza and the therapist Zenaida....
and me trying to defend KC... until OH.. 48 hours ago...
waxing and waning-

In one word- GACY- minus the clown nose.

ACTUALLY- Raider! BTK

 

[HatesSociopaths]

I have to ask this...Do you think Casey is the same as Gacy or Bundy?

No I don't think they are the same. They are similar in that they are in the same class of mental illness IMO: psychopathy. There are degrees of psychopathy and Gacy and Bundy are more dangerous than Casey, evidenced by the fact their victims were people they didn't know and who were not related to their daily lives.

:twocents:

 

[aeneas1]

I just wanted to add what I think is going on with Casey (MOO). Casey appears to be highly immature to me, childlike. She lies without realizing the consequences attached to the lies.

imo she fully understands the consequences attached to her lies, always has and always will. her lies are deliberate, habitual, planned and self-serving, hatched to improve her image in the eyes of others and to improve her circumstances. nothing childlike about her lies imo.

She craves attention like neglected children do.

many children that weren't neglected crave attention as well. so do adults from all walks of life.

She appears to be giddy @ inappropriate times, like a child excited for Christmas morning.

shacking up with the boyfriend, hitting the town, living it up as if you have no care in the world immediately after your child has died is not the same as a giddy child at christmas imo - nor does it equate to "inappropriate" behavior. it's the reprehensible behavior of a complete and unequivocal sociopath.

She steals money without realizing that taking money from someone puts that person in a bind, and usually puts her parents in a bind because they're the ones paying it back (like money is just paper to her and there's an endless supply of paper).

imo casey fully understood, fully realized, the exact position her stealing put those that trusted her in - but she simply didn't care. like most sociopaths, casey's self-gratification always came first, often at the expense of others. a far cry from a child-like innocence, too young and immature to grasp the ramifications of her actions.

From what I've learned in mental health, when someone has a traumatic event in their childhood happen to them (doesn't have to be sexual abuse, just something their child brain considers traumatic), their mind has a hard time developing further. The brain kinda "sticks" to that moment and new things aren't learned until this person can rationalize the trauma to understand it. Usually you need a lot of counseling to get passed it. This is just MOO

all very true. but it's equally true that some human beings are just liars, thieves, murderers, not fit for civilized society - just broken. and there's often not a tragic history nor a neat, clean, tidy reason to explain their criminal behavior. they're just rotten to the core. such is the case with casey anthony imo.

my responses in red...

 

[Caligram]

Rotten to the core....that is FCA and what a bad apple is she. Wonder if after Caylee Marie was out of the picture, if FCA went back to asking her mirror mirror on the wall, who is the fairest of them all. She must have deeply resented the unadorned pure beauty of Caylee Marie.

 

[HatesSociopaths]

That's a completely possible scenario as well - in fact you reminded me of serial killer Joel Rifkin's account of his murders. What it comes down to IMO is there are degrees of evil and there indeed is a level where no trigger is necessary!

Here is Rifkin's interview by the way (graphic):

http://www.youtube.com/user/prettylilpuppet#p/c/CD64F074BFF64754/2/C2kjkBXCxdA

I've been thinking about this point some more. I think there could be a valuable scale in regards to this point. Dr. Michael Stone has come out with one, but his is a scale of evil slightly different than what I am talking about. Here is a quote on his (by the way I think FCA is at level 11 on his):

Dr. Michael Stone, a clinical psychiatry professor at Columbia University, studied biographies of 500 murderers in the Mid-Hudson Psychiatric Center in New York and formulated a scale of his interpretations called the “22 Levels of Evil.” Dr. Stone spent many years studying the traits of these killers and examined exactly what these people do and why they commit these horrific acts.

In explaining his “Scale of Evil,” Dr. Stone states that the first number on his scale is not really evil because it is justifiable homicide during self-defense. He explains numbers 2-8 as being mainly reactive, impulsive crimes and mostly “crimes of extreme passion.” These are usually committed when someone is caught up in some horrible situation. These killers often have some remorse. Two examples of these are number 2, which is “Jealous lovers who kill…” and number 5, “Traumatized, desperate persons who kill…”, such as battered wives.

Numbers 9-16, he says, show a fair number of psychopathic traits such as superficial goodness and charm; such people are manipulative and exhibit grandiosity. They are prone to lying, are usually callous and have no remorse. Number 11, “Psychopathic killers who murder people ‘in the way’” and number 12, “Power-hungry psychopaths who kill when cornered” are examples of these. Mafia killers are perhaps good cases in point.

Those on levels 17-22 are the true psychopaths who clearly exhibit extremely inhuman behavior. These are serial killers and those who perform prolonged torture who usually get pleasure from seeing people suffer. These are the categories that often end up in the news. One example of these is number 17, “Sexually perverse serial murderers: In males, rape is usually the primary motive and the victim is murdered to hide evidence.”

Those on this level are usually murderers who are not capable of having normal close relationships. This results in a kind of “one night stand” of rape and murder. The ultimate evil on the scale is number 22, “Psychopaths who inflict extreme torture on their victims and then murder them.” These killers are those who enjoy sadistic pleasure from watching other people’s extreme psychological and physical anguish.

http://helpingpsychology.com/stones-scale-of-evil

On Dr. Stone's scale, the most evil are those who perform prolonged torture and then murder their victim. They get off on it.

On a scale like I am talking about, the worst levels on the scale would be psychopaths who have no differentiation in who their next dead victim should be, and who need no triggers - they are chronically and continually dedicated to doing harm. Essentially their purpose is to wipe out the human race.

The scale would be better named most dangerous, as the psychopaths would be more and more dangerous to society the further down on the scale. Higher up on the scale, there would be more differentiation on their next victim (Bundy picking only women who looked like his ex, for example) and/or more periods of ethical conduct between victims due to lack of triggers (not due to having to develop a new plot). They get along in life for a time and then something triggers, they have to murder again. This would be less dangerous than someone who has murder on his mind 24/7, obviously. Further up the scale would be psychopaths who wreak havoc but who are not capable of murder (perhaps only due to the fact they are too aware of the likelihood of getting caught.) Etc.

:twocents:

 

[Amity]

You forgot to count the cheque fraud with her mother, her grandmother, her grandfather, and the lie to George about depositing the $4000 cheque in the bank. This is criminal activity that we know of in three years. What else is out there?

Above B&UBM

Thank you LogicalGirl.
The bolded above is what I've been asking since maybe August of 2008.
I only got "thanks" to my posts back then, no real opinions and I can understand why.....who could possibly understand the mind of Casey, or think like her for that matter, and that probably includes Psychologists/Psychiatrists that might have seen her once or twice.

I posted a similar question again shortly after the verdict and of course being the official thread-killer that I am, my post went into the WS Abyss.

I posted it again on another thread and finally received a response from Eleni777 but that was it...one response.
I was very grateful for Eleni777's response and from the response I got the feeling I am not alone about wanting to know more about Casey's past......the Jr. High, High School years...... I want to know more, more!
More opinions, more theories about her Psych/ID, whatever is making her tick.

LogicalGirl, since you and a few other Knowledgeable Posters here seem to have a lot of knowledge about the mind's inner workings, maybe you and the other great posters can take a look at one of my thoughts about Casey and maybe tell me where it could possibly fit into all that has happened. OR, debunk my idea so that I can move on?

I'd really appreciate it!
My post is under the topic;
'What questions are sill unanswered?'
It is post #634

Can you tell I still haven't learned how to link just one single post?
All I know is Copy/Paste, Copy/Paste.

 

[kidz110]

Above B&UBM

Thank you LogicalGirl.
The bolded above is what I've been asking since maybe August of 2008.
I only got "thanks" to my posts back then, no real opinions and I can understand why.....who could possibly understand the mind of Casey, or think like her for that matter, and that probably includes Psychologists/Psychiatrists that might have seen her once or twice.

I posted a similar question again shortly after the verdict and of course being the official thread-killer that I am, my post went into the WS Abyss.

I posted it again on another thread and finally received a response from Eleni777 but that was it...one response.
I was very grateful for Eleni777's response and from the response I got the feeling I am not alone about wanting to know more about Casey's past......the Jr. High, High School years...... I want to know more, more!
More opinions, more theories about her Psych/ID, whatever is making her tick.

LogicalGirl, since you and a few other Knowledgeable Posters here seem to have a lot of knowledge about the mind's inner workings, maybe you and the other great posters can take a look at one of my thoughts about Casey and maybe tell me where it could possibly fit into all that has happened. OR, debunk my idea so that I can move on?

I'd really appreciate it!
My post is under the topic;
'What questions are sill unanswered?'
It is post #634

Can you tell I still haven't learned how to link just one single post?
All I know is Copy/Paste, Copy/Paste.

Amity, here is the link to your post-- [ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6939301&postcount=634"]Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - What questions are still unanswered?[/ame]
Hope someone else responds for you, but I will tell you what I see with FICA. She's just someone who had enablers--someone who never had to face real consequences for any of her actions, so she just kept going with them because she could.

 

[beccalecca1]

I suppose LE should not "focus" on suspects that the evidence points to.Instead, they should keep an open mind and spent their limited resources looking at any possible reason for a child being missing.

With limited resources, I have to wonder why they did so much investigating with Casey's friends, but didn't think to look at the other people who lived with Caylee on June 16th.

 

[beccalecca1]

No offense beccalecca1, but I think by now, everyone knows your feelings on the case.
I don't think think this rehashing and rehashing is going to get us anywhere.

We who believe the verdict was wrong, are still going to believe it was wrong, no matter what anyone was has to say.

LE followed Casey's lead of a kidnapper named ZFG and now her defense and their followers, say they should have focused on a drowning?

Can you clarify what you mean by this post? I'd hate to be misunderstood.

 

[beccalecca1]

In my 20 years experience working in mental health, there are also those who are just evil individuals -- nothing has happened to them in their past to make them this way -- they are just evil and derive great satisfaction from hurting others, emotionally, as well as physically. MOO

In your 20 years, do you experience more just evil people, or more people who have history related to their current issues? I'm just curious statistic-wise.

 

[beccalecca1]

Why? Because Casey said to 3 years later?

No, because GA was the last to see them 2 together according to his statements. How simple would it have been to confirm it? At this point in the investigation, they were dealing with a missing child. Why not look into the family where Caylee lived?

 

[lorann]

Amity, here is the link to your post-- Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - What questions are still unanswered?
Hope someone else responds for you, but I will tell you what I see with FICA. She's just someone who had enablers--someone who never had to face real consequences for any of her actions, so she just kept going with them because she could.

I have often wondered what else she may have been excused for that we didn't learn. I think of Lee's remarks to the guys at Tony's apartment about her before anyone knew just how bad this situation was. I want to know what "Is this like the other time?" remark means he made on that tape. (but not enough to pay to read their interp) Her actions and coverups have gone on for so long, I doubt she can ever really change or since the verdict, want to change. And it appears this family will be rewarded financially for all these years of how they handled her. Down deep in their souls, someone in this family has to acknowlege their part in making her what she has become.