IL - Lt. Charles 'Joe' Gliniewicz, 52, found dead, Fox Lake, 1 Sep 2015 - #4

[Matic]

This man was in the prime of his life. Beautiful family, looking forward to retirement.
A pillar in the community. For what valid reasons did he have for wanting to commit suicide? If he was being forced to retire for some reason, he was still quite young enough to hire on at either either a different police post, take the state troopers exam or even be Be private investigator if he loved his job so much.

And you would think that as a police officer having all those years of experience that he would have know investigators would have found out he indeed faked or altered the scene. And therefore would have been looked at very poorly in the eyes of people that loved him.

 

[Montjoy]

This man was in the prime of his life. Beautiful family, looking forward to retirement.
A pillar in the community. For what valid reasons did he have for wanting to commit suicide? If he was being forced to retire for some reason, he was still quite young enough to hire on at either either a different police post, take the state troopers exam or even be Be private investigator if he loved his job so much.

And you would think that as a police officer having all those years of experience that he would have know investigators would have found out he indeed faked or altered the scene. And therefore would have been looked at very poorly in the eyes of people that loved him.

I hear you, but the fact is that every day people are surprised by those who kill themselves If it were easy to tell who was suicidal, the suicide rate would be next to nil.

 

[vestigare]

Bolded by Me.

That article seriously stood out to me when I first read it along with another article and the claim that Lt Gliniewicz was personally policing the area where he was found - because the subject came up weeks earlier - that there were problems with vagrants and vandalism in the area. . .

I thought, Really?

So, it takes a police lieutenant only weeks away from retirement to take on this task?

He can't assign that to a junior officer or even a rookie?

Something really fishy about that.

Good point.
And if it was know he was going to retire why did they allow him to take on that ongoing task and not get him a key to the gate so he didn't have to leave his cruiser and walk down the road to look for taggers or squaters?

 

[vestigare]

http://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/suicide-often-not-preceded-by-warnings-201209245331
“Many people never let on what they are feeling or planning. The paradox is that the people who are most intent on committing suicide know that they have to keep their plans to themselves if they are to carry out the act,” says Dr. Miller. “Thus, the people most in need of help may be the toughest to save.”

Talking about suicide: Statements like “I’d be better off dead” or “If I see you again…,”
Seeking the means: Trying to get access to guns, pills, or other objects that could be used in a suicide attempt.
Getting affairs in order: Giving away prized possessions or making arrangements for family members.
Saying goodbye: Unusual or unexpected visits or calls to family and friends; saying goodbye to people as if they won’t be seen again.

 

[vestigare]

I am not looking for credit so much as I am wondering how it was missed that I and others have been saying pretty much the same thing for weeks now. And I did in fact make a post that it may have been a last minute decision even before we knew he was there 20 minutes before he radioed in.

Like I said, I am not looking for credit. But, that said. . . many of us put a lot of effort into our thoughts and research. So, there's a little bit of frustration and disbelief when it is credited or attributed to someone else.

That's all.

There have been so many theories and scenarios on both sides that have been thought provoking and I thank everyone for their well laid out points.

 

[vestigare]

http://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/suicide-often-not-preceded-by-warnings-201209245331
“Many people never let on what they are feeling or planning. The paradox is that the people who are most intent on committing suicide know that they have to keep their plans to themselves if they are to carry out the act,” says Dr. Miller. “Thus, the people most in need of help may be the toughest to save.”

Some suicides (and suicide attempts), though, don’t come completely out of the blue. Some people — including those who are more ambivalent about suicide — consciously or unconsciously drop hints. Here are a few behaviors that may put friends and family on notice that the risk of suicide is on the rise (adapted from HelpGuide.org):

Talking about suicide: Statements like “I’d be better off dead” or “If I see you again…,”
Seeking the means: Trying to get access to guns, pills, or other objects that could be used in a suicide attempt.
No hope for the future: Feelings of helplessness, hopelessness, and being trapped, or believing that things will never get better.
Self-loathing: Feelings of worthlessness, guilt, shame, and self-hatred.
Getting affairs in order: Giving away prized possessions or making arrangements for family members.
Saying goodbye: Unusual or unexpected visits or calls to family and friends; saying goodbye to people as if they won’t be seen again.

Every suicide, like every person, is different. Many are sparked by intense feelings of anger, despair, hopelessness, or panic. Things that can put an individual at a higher risk for suicide in the short term include:

an episode of depression, psychosis, or anxiety
a significant loss, such as the death of a partner or the loss of a job
a personal crisis or life stress, especially one that increases a sense of isolation or leads to a loss of self-esteem, such as a breakup or divorce
loss of social support, for example, because of a move or when a close friend relocates
an illness or medication that triggers a change in mood



Notice how several of these could apply to Joe.

 

[vestigare]

In addition to prints, there should be skin cells and dna from any perspiration on the gun as well.

And prints and DNA from any one else who recently handled it.

 

[vestigare]

BBM, I think the conclusion that this was a suicide would be simple enough - but they WANT to believe that it was NOT a suicide so badly that they are going to exhaust every aspect of their investigation that they can - to try to find a way to eliminate that possibility and to try to find something (anything) to rule it as a homicide.

Snipped by me.
I keep trying to keep it simple by pointing out we already have all the evidence that points to suicide yet it would require additional evidence to prove homicide. Like you I think they are literally working overtime to prove homicide in my opinion because homicide would save their crumbling careers and justify in some people's eyes the enormous manhunt and costs over something that looked like suicide within an hour of it happening.

 

[katydid23]

If he just decided on the spur of the moment, that morning, to kill himself, why did he have that long conversation with the Mayor about ' what would happen to the Explorers after he was gone?'

 

[katydid23]

Snipped by me.
I keep trying to keep it simple by pointing out we already have all the evidence that points to suicide yet it would require additional evidence to prove homicide. Like you I think they are literally working overtime to prove homicide in my opinion because homicide would save their crumbling careers and justify in some people's eyes the enormous manhunt and costs over something that looked like suicide within an hour of it happening.

Within an hour they should have called it a suicide? Did they have all the necessary reports and tests back within an hour? Looked at the videos and talked to witnesses within the first hour? Had the ME report back?

 

[vestigare]

I don't believe the 3 males referred to in the call and 3 males observed on various videos and questioned were ever officially connected.

I don't see how they could possibly be connected now that we know Joe was there for twenty minutes before he called in.

 

[vestigare]

I wonder why we've heard two different versions of Lt.CG's upcoming/delayed retirement, and why hadn't Lt.CG taken care of the paperwork for his retirement? We've heard that Lt.CG was to retire at the end of the year, but moved his retirement plans up to end of Sept., and we've heard that he was to retire at end of August but was asked to stay on longer, I think to end of Sept. was it? So which is it? IMO, I don't think Lt.CG was looking forward to retiring. Was Lt.CG being pressured to retire? And if so, why?

I don't think he wanted to retire either which makes me question what the impetus was for it?
Wife, illness, PD politics, an investigation?

I also can not imagine he would retire before Sept 1 as his wife stated he was not eligible for the highest retirement until Aug 31.

So maybe he was figuring sept, but again why when he didn't have to and acted as if it was difficult for him?

 

[vestigare]

Within an hour they should have called it a suicide? Did they have all the necessary reports and tests back within an hour? Looked at the videos and talked to witnesses within the first hour? Had the ME report back?

They DO NOT run expensive and laborious tests on ballistics and various tranfer dna on obvious suicides.

They collect evidence, in this case of gun shot they do a quick hand swab at the scene for gsr, they send the body for autopsy, and if something really seems to point to homicide at the autopsy, then they open the case to investigate it as homicide.

They DO NOT instantly start searching for murderers, lock down the area, call in the feds, run a thousand tests and wait months for them.

It DOES NOT work that way in an investigation when someone is shot by their own gun at close enough range when they have gsr on their hands.

I never said the corner would determine death in an hour. But they investigate within an hour based on the evidence that can clearly be seen.

 

[vestigare]

If he just decided on the spur of the moment, that morning, to kill himself, why did he have that long conversation with the Mayor about ' what would happen to the Explorers after he was gone?'

That is but one reason I think he didn't spur of the moment kill himself. I think he was getting things in order for days if not longer before he did it.

However, something in the meeting could have spurred him on to do it quicker or solidify it for him.

 

[Boo Radley]

I am not speculating that.
There are TWO investigations that WE KNOW are happening regarding FLPD.
One involves Ex Chief Behan and the other officer who did something to some drunk. That was what the press conference questions were about.
Joe is NOT involved in that investigation nor would I think he should be as he was not a desk sergeant nor was he present the day that happened.
There is another investigation regarding the govt of the town and some such. I don't know the entire details and neither does any else as it is an ongoing investigation coming from the federal level and stemming from all the problems that area has been having for years.
I have every reason to believe that Gliniewiecz being a 30 year veteran of the town PD would be investigated in some fashion regarding that.
I have no way to know if he has been questioned or not but most likely would have been at some point.
I also have no way of knowing what if anything this investigation has uncovered on ANYONE in that town or county.
But that doesn't mean there isn't rumors and that doesn't mean JOe and other people aren't worried.

We also have no idea what inside politics could be at play for why he might or might not have been wanted on the program after his retirement.
Sometimes the new guy doesn't want the old guy hanging around even in a volunteer capacity. It could be as simple as that.

BBM

I can assure you that he was involved. The comments during the press conferences show that they are trying to avoid a definitive response and are attempting to word the denials of Joe's involvement deceptively.

Joe was the Lt. in charge of "Operations " for the PD. In this role, he would have (or should have) routinely reviewed the incident in question, shortly after it occurred. When the citizen filed a complaint regarding his treatment while in custody, Joe would have been involved. When the Chief (Joe's friend & coworker for 30 years) investigated and dismissed the complaint, Joe would have been involved. When the citizen pursued his complaint to the elected officials of Fox Lake who felt it warranted an outside investigator, common sense says that Joe's role & involvement will be scrutinized closely.

Worst case scenario, I think he likely just went along with the dismissive handling of the arrestee's relatively minor complaint. The alleged rude & rough treatment is unfortunately very common, especially with those arrested for DUI. They are often rude, uncooperative, and combative. When trying remain patient and impartial, human nature can sometime trump professional discretion. Officers may become complacent and feel this is permissible because it is relatively rare for someone arrested for DUI to follow up on a complaint of this nature. They must overcome their impaired recollection, embarrassment for the arrest, and the institutional resistance that they will face.

At Fox Lake, the 3 Lieutenants hold the rank directly below the chief. Joe, as the Lt in charge of Operations, holds the position with the wide ranging responsibilities most like those of the chief. Based on this, and the effusive praise from the Mayor, former Chief Behan, and others, I would have expected the Mayor to have appointed Joe as the interim police chief after Behan was suspended. This obviously was not done. Makes me wonder what the mayor discussed with Joe the day before his death.

 

[Boo Radley]

They should have some prints lifted from the last person to touch that gun. Even smeared they can usually tell which finger held the trigger. Palm prints will show the angle held.
I wonder if he shot the final shot with his left hand since it was to the upper left chest.
I wouldn't think he would have marks from the gun unless the slide action caught his hand in some way.

Rather than left handed, I would think that one would want to use their dominant hand when firing a fatal shot. It seems possible that he could have easily used his right hand in a position similar to putting your right hand over your heart. He could have pointed the gun at the center of his chest, just above the vest, close to where the knot of a tie would be. The gun could be at an angle to shoot down and to the left, hitting the heart, and causing the devastating fatal injury as described.

 

[Elley Mae]

Behan's retirement came days after he was put on paid administrative leave during an investigation of an altercation between an officer and a man arrested last year.

Though officials said the interim appointments had nothing to do with the ongoing investigation into the slaying of Lt. Charles Joseph Gliniewicz, they said that given all the uncertainty surrounding the investigation into the former chief and the officers' grief over the death of a beloved colleague, it made sense to bring in new leaders.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/ill-town-names-new-chief-in-wake-of-lieutenants-murder/

.......................

The station also reported that computers belonging to Gliniewicz are being forensically analyzed at a laboratory and his social media presence is also being scrutinized. However, investigators are still waiting for certain websites to comply with requests by law enforcement.

Sources tell Fox News two shell casings were found about 100 feet apart from each other near Gliniewicz’s body, which was discovered face down. His hand was in a gun position, the firearm “dropped at his body.”

One bullet hit Gliniewicz in his bulletproof vest. The second and fatal shot struck him underneath his vest, fired in a downward trajectory, near the heart. There was no sign of a struggle or defensive wounds—especially one to save his own life.

Filenko said investigators still consider the officer’s death a homicide and were analyzing crucial DNA found at the crime scene—which they said does not belong to Gliniewicz. But he would not specify what it was.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2015/09/1...ibility-suicide-in-shooting-death-ill-police/

....................................

If Fox Lake was quick to honor the fallen cop, then the investigation was not. Other than Gliniewicz’s radio call and someone else’s DNA mysteriously found at the scene — investigators won’t say whose or what type — police had little to go on.

“Gliniewicz’s body was found face down in a remote area, his service weapon next to him,” reported Fox News’s Matt Finn, citing the unnamed Task Force member. “Two shell casings were found: one came from a shot that hit Gliniewicz’s Kevlar vest; roughly 100 feet away, another casing was found from the fatal shot that struck Gliniewicz underneath his bulletproof vest in a downward trajectory, hitting him near the heart.”

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...ked-outrage-and-a-tears-but-was-it-a-suicide/

 

[TheDuchess]

Snipped by me.
I keep trying to keep it simple by pointing out we already have all the evidence that points to suicide yet it would require additional evidence to prove homicide. Like you I think they are literally working overtime to prove homicide in my opinion because homicide would save their crumbling careers and justify in some people's eyes the enormous manhunt and costs over something that looked like suicide within an hour of it happening.

We get it. You think it is a suicide. And you may well be correct. But clearly not everyone is in agreement with you just yet. As I have stated several times, there are some people who are viewing this as a suicide and want additional evidence to convince them otherwise. Some of us are viewing this as a homicide and want to see additional evidence that it is a suicide. And I do not believe we have all of the information we need at this point, at least not publicly. That doesn't mean we don't understand your point of view. You have explained it a million ways from Sunday. We all get it. You think it is a suicide. You feel they are wasting time and money, and they are covering it up. We get it. But not all of us are convinced yet. It is quite alright for you to express your opinion on the case, but it is not ok to continue to call out anyone who might not agree with you as not "getting it."

 

[TheDuchess]

Examples of an "obvious" suicide:
Note left behind
Attempted suicide in the past
Known history of mental illness, depression/anxiety, etc...
Witnesses to the suicide
Prior indication of the desire to commit suicide
Significant life events such as divorce, death of a loved one, loss of a job, serious economic difficulties
Victim found alone inside a locked home, or in a situation that there would be no other possible conclusion

Not so "obvious" suicides
Trusted member of the community
Happy home life
No history of mental illness
No history of suicide attempts
No outward signs of life difficulties
Any indications pointing to homicide, i.e. a distress call, evidence of a struggle, shot twice, unexplained DNA
Coroner stating publicly that he cannot determine a MOD until he has more information, but is leaning toward homicide.

Now we can argue the validity of all of these items and that is fine. But the truth of the matter is that this is NOT an "obvious" suicide.

 

[Boo Radley]

I wonder what they think about all this talk that he was retiring soon when they obviously hadn't been informed he was planning to step down soon.

You would think he would have given them a heads up. Especially before the new school session started.

His entire retirement schedule just seems so all over the map.

I have a possible explanation for the apparent confusion regarding Joe's retirement timing. A previous post stated that he had 30 years of service as of April 2015. At that point, his pension will be 75% of his salary and the % will not grow any higher if he continues to work. Despite this, many in LE work beyond 30 years.

Joe clearly wanted to continue working in LE as evidenced by the fact he applied for several police chief positions. It is typical to informally discuss your potential retirement as Joe probably had done, hence the tentative December 2015 retirement date that is frequently referenced. He may have needed his current income but expected to have secured a job as police chief by December. If appointed chief, he would then be able to collect his 75% pension and the salary from his new job.

There are reports that he was considering moving his retirement to an earlier date in September. This would seem to coincide with his application for the position of police chief in his town of residence, Antioch. He was likely a finalist for the position and as a courtesy, mentioned that he may need to retire earlier than December if he is offered the position.

Joe's wife, with the benefit of hindsight, understandably stated that she wishes he had "just walked away". Obviously, a 75% pension while continuing to seek another job would be preferable to losing her husband while he was working, in what may be a murder.

The mayor had reportedly asked Joe to postpone his retirement and stay for another month after the current chief abruptly resigned. Postpone? But there was no mention of an imminent retirement. Did this statement from the mayor hint that he had knowledge of this? The mayor could have asked Joe to serve as interim chief and pushed to make this permanent. Why only ask him to "postpone" his retirement (which was not public knowledge). Because of their personal & professional relationship, they most certainly had discussed the future leadership of the PD after Chief Behan's sudden retirement. Maybe they discussed information which could, in the mayor's opinion, potentially complicate Joe's appointment as chief. Maybe Joe was unhappy about this and decided to retire imminently. This would then explain why the mayor was forced to ask Joe to at least stay another month to assist in the transition of department leadership.