GUILTY IL - Sheila von Wiese Mack, 62, in suitcase in Bali, 12 Aug 2014 *fnd guilty in Bali* #6

[everybodhi]

VF appears to have some strong Christian values so it wouldn’t surprise me if she has Stella and OS staying in her home or has found somewhere else for them to stay temporarily. I wonder how long OS is going to stay in the US and what will happen after she leaves.

MOO

OS has a family of her own in Bali, how long will she be willing to be separate from them for a seemingly hopeless endeavor? I think she is probably trying to help SM adjust but will only commit so long to that before she will need to take care of her own life.

 

[otto]

Regarding Indonesian citizenship for Stella, I'm doubtful. She is not born to a parent who is Indonesian, her parents are known, her parents are not stateless, and she would not have become Indonesian due to a death of a parent.

"By birth
Individuals who are eligible to be considered Indonesian by birth include:

• Persons born within the bounds of the territory or abroad to one Indonesian parent;[9]
• Foundlings born within Indonesia to unknown parents;[9]
• Persons born in the territory to parents who are stateless; or[9]
• Persons who would have become Indonesian, but for the death of the parent.[9]"

Stella does not fall into any of these categories.

Indonesian nationality law - Wikipedia

 

[Kamille]

OS has a family of her own in Bali, how long will she be willing to be separate from them for a seemingly hopeless endeavor? I think she is probably trying to help SM adjust but will only commit so long to that before she will need to take care of her own life.

I assume OS had scheduled a certain amount of time when the original plan was for them to go stay at a Beverly Hills mansion and enjoy sightseeing out in LA while discussing the planned “documentary” with Diana, the owner of the mansion. I wonder how long she planned to stay?

MOO

 

[otto]

From the same link:

"Law No. 62 of 1958 changed the nationality scheme from birth in the territory to a system based on descent, but had exceptions for foundlings and stateless children to be recognized as Indonesian through birth in the territory."[60]
​

Nationality in Indonesia was complicated by Dutch and Chinese settlers (families born in Indonesia in the 1800s). At some point, they were deemed political visitors and thus stripped of Indonesian citizenship. I don't see any provision for a prison baby of foreign parents to be granted Indonesian citizenship.

 

[everybodhi]

Regarding Indonesian citizenship for Stella, I'm doubtful. She is not born to a parent who is Indonesian, her parents are known, her parents are not stateless, and she would not have become Indonesian due to a death of a parent.

"By birth
Individuals who are eligible to be considered Indonesian by birth include:

• Persons born within the bounds of the territory or abroad to one Indonesian parent;[9]
• Foundlings born within Indonesia to unknown parents;[9]
• Persons born in the territory to parents who are stateless; or[9]
• Persons who would have become Indonesian, but for the death of the parent.[9]"

Stella does not fall into any of these categories.

Indonesian nationality law - Wikipedia

From the same link:

"Law No. 62 of 1958 changed the nationality scheme from birth in the territory to a system based on descent, but had exceptions for foundlings and stateless children to be recognized as Indonesian through birth in the territory."[60]

Nationality in Indonesia was complicated by Dutch and Chinese settlers (families born in Indonesia in the 1800s). At some point, they were deemed political visitors and thus stripped of Indonesian citizenship. I don't see any provision for a prison baby of foreign parents to be granted Indonesian citizenship.

Thank you for clarifying the rules for me, I'm in several local expat FB groups, one is "Laws and Regulations in Indonesia", they talk about this alot, their kids having to do the paperwork for citizenship at 18-21, but I guess I wasn't following close enough for it to click in my brain that they have children with Balinese spouses.
Thankfully all I have to worry about is my retirement visa which is easy, all you have to do is pay an agent and they do everything for you.

 

[otto]

I assume OS had scheduled a certain amount of time when the original plan was for them to go stay at a Beverly Hills mansion and enjoy sightseeing out in LA while discussing the planned “documentary” with Diana, the owner of the mansion. I wonder how long she planned to stay?

MOO

I'm guessing the plan was to leave the USA as quickly as possible (for some other country) and to apply for Mack and the child to immediately return to Bali. Mack did not know that Bali would seek to ban her for life. Although the child is currently on a 6 month ban, there's no good reason for a 6 year old child to live in Bali. The only reason she was there is because Mack wanted access to the child's money. Mack made poor choices, but that's no reason for Bali to take responsibility for the child. She has family in the USA.

 

[everybodhi]

I assume OS had scheduled a certain amount of time when the original plan was for them to go stay at a Beverly Hills mansion and enjoy sightseeing out in LA while discussing the planned “documentary” with Diana, the owner of the mansion. I wonder how long she planned to stay?

MOO

Winter in Chicago is a lot different than LA. It doesn't sound like much fun, no mansion and no documentary funds forthcoming. Yet.

 

[everybodhi]

I'm guessing the plan was to leave the USA as quickly as possible (for some other country) and to apply for Mack and the child to immediately return to Bali. Mack did not know that Bali would seek to ban her for life. Although the child is currently on a 6 month ban, there's no good reason for a 6 year old child to live in Bali. The only reason she was there is because Mack wanted access to the child's money. Mack made poor choices, but that's no reason for Bali to take responsibility for the child. She has family in the USA.

I don't know any of these people but I imagine Stella had a pretty good life in Bali, (after she got out of prison). If you have some money, the standard of living is very high.
I hope she can have a happy and secure childhood somewhere and not get dragged around too much.
The best case scenario is her mother stays in prison at least 12 years so she can reach adulthood without her influence. Jmo.

 

[otto]

Sorry I haven't read all the thread.
Thanks for sharing this document, I was under the impression jus soli was the law of the land but now I see jus sanguinis trumps jus soli. Blood is more important than being born here.

I don't know how they can live here, even if they were in good standing and HM was not a murderer.

They can only get visitor visas which require leaving every 1-6 months and it's rumored they will be cracking down on visa hopping, (flying to Malaysia for a day to get a visa stamp), and only allowing one 6 month social visa a year.

They cannot get a long term visa, she can't afford an investor visa which requires being director with ownership of a company valued at $700,000 USD minimum and an investment of minimum $70,000 in Bali. And you still cannot work, you have to hire Indonesians.
And she's too young for a retirement visa.

Her only option would be to marry an Indonesian, or give Stella up to adoption.

Even adoption will very likely have some bumps. The Australian foster mother is married to a Balinese man. The child has no standing in Bali. Then we have the question of foreign adoption. Is there any good reason that the woman from Australia and man from Bali should adopt a child from the USA?

 

[everybodhi]

Even adoption will very likely have some bumps. The Australian foster mother is married to a Balinese man. The child has no standing in Bali. Then we have the question of foreign adoption. Is there any good reason that the woman from Australia and man from Bali should adopt a child from the USA?

Yes, it's a long shot and likely won't even be attempted because it's probably a long and fruitless struggle.
I'm just trying to think like them if they really really want her in Bali and she's begging to go back. How desperate are they? What are their options for Stella?
HM still has legal rights to make decisions for her child, even from a US prison.
There was a case on here this year where a mom went to prison and signed guardianship of her baby daughter over to some meth heads, the baby is dead now. No government agency oversaw anything, a parent can give their kid to anyone they choose while in prison in the US, apparently.

 

[otto]

Yes, it's a long shot and likely won't even be attempted because it's probably a long and fruitless struggle.

I'm just trying to think like them if they really really want her in Bali and she's begging to go back. How desperate are they? What are their options for Stella?

HM still has legal rights to make decisions for her child, even from a US prison.

There was a case on here this year where a mom went to prison and signed guardianship of her baby daughter over to some meth heads, the baby is dead now. No government agency oversaw anything, a parent can give their kid to anyone they choose while in prison in the US, apparently.

Indonesia is strict regarding citizenship due to history. There were revolutions to remove everyone who was not native. A child born of foreign criminals doesn't strike me as a desirable citizen in Indonesia, and the country should not absorb children of criminals under any circumstances. They clearly don't want Mack in the country.

As for the child, she was allowed to remain in Bali only because her mother was in prison in Bali. She is a minor and should have no rights in Bali other than as a visitor. She might speak the local language, but English is her first language. Foster parents know that they are providing temporary care for a child.

Mack had complete control over the child in Bali. In the USA, Schaefer should have parental rights as well.

If Schaefer's mother has money for a legal dispute over custody, perhaps she should hire a lawyer for Schaefer so he can assert his parental rights. Schaefer is suffering malnutrition, so he doesn't even have money for food.

 

[gitana1]

I'm guessing the plan was to leave the USA as quickly as possible (for some other country) and to apply for Mack and the child to immediately return to Bali. Mack did not know that Bali would seek to ban her for life. Although the child is currently on a 6 month ban, there's no good reason for a 6 year old child to live in Bali. The only reason she was there is because Mack wanted access to the child's money. Mack made poor choices, but that's no reason for Bali to take responsibility for the child. She has family in the USA.

Whats the status? Has Indonesia sought to ban HM for life?

 

[gitana1]

Even adoption will very likely have some bumps. The Australian foster mother is married to a Balinese man. The child has no standing in Bali. Then we have the question of foreign adoption. Is there any good reason that the woman from Australia and man from Bali should adopt a child from the USA?

And now Stella is under the jurisdiction of the USA. I doubt they’d allow her to be adopted to a couple who are out of the country.

 

[otto]

Whats the status? Has Indonesia sought to ban HM for life?

There are a few links like this. I haven't read that a decision has been made, but I can't think of any reason that the request would be denied. Mack went to Bali specifically to murder her mother because she thought it would be easier to get away with it in Bali than committing murder in Chicago.

"Jamaruli Manihuruk, chief of the Bali regional office of the Ministry of Law and Human Rights, said Mack would fly from Jakarta to Chicago on Delta Air Lines.

He said his office has asked the central government to ban her from Indonesia for life.
...

Her attorney, Yulius Benyamin Seran, said earlier that Mack had asked for Stella, who is now 6, to remain with her foster family to avoid media attention in the US. However, Indonesian authorities refused.

“Minors must be accompanied by their mothers when their mothers are deported. There is no policy that allows a mother to leave her underage child here,” said Amrizal, chief of the Bali immigration office."
​

‘Suitcase Killer’ Heather Mack heads back to US on early release

 

[otto]

And now Stella is under the jurisdiction of the USA. I doubt they’d allow her to be adopted to a couple who are out of the country.

The child has family in the USA and, if they are unable to care for her, the USA has a procedure for placing orphans. There's no reason for Indonesia to accept responsibility for the child's education etc.

 

[gitana1]

Does Claypool finally understand that the evidence for two USA nationals who conspired to commit murder in a foreign country originated in the USA, that Bali had no grounds to file these charges, that these new charges relate to a confession from a co-conspirator two years after the murder convictions?

These are new charges, not double jeopardy, and no "dog fight" threats from the man in LA make any difference.

Schaefer's cousin deserves to be in prison. He knew in advance that Mack and Schaefer intended to murder Sheila. He knew that Mack attempted to drug/ overdose Sheila and it didn't work. He knew that Schaefer was asking about another soft kill option, and that he admitted making a bloody mess of it. At no time did Kia Walker's nephew tell Tommy Schaefer that he should not murder his girlfriends mother. Instead, he helped brainstorm options for murder.

Schaefer's family is polluted, his mother should not have custody of a murderer's child, even if the murderer is her son. The stink is throughout the family of mothers, sons, cousins, siblings, and very likely more.

It wouldn’t matter if the charges are based on new or different evidence, when it comes to double jeopardy, as long as they stem from the same, connected acts- which they do: A conspiracy to commit murder.

But as I posted previously, double jeopardy doesn’t apply to foreign prosecutions and that’s common knowledge in the legal field. Different “sovereigns” may have parallel prosecutions without violating the double jeopardy prohibition:

“Although the case at hand involved parallel federal and state prosecutions, in its opinion, the Court stressed that the dual-sovereignty principle “comes into still sharper relief” when prosecutions are brought in the United States for crimes committed abroad because, in that case, the United States and the foreign state have different interests to vindicate and therefore can both properly seek to punish the offender.[13] The Court observed that a foreign state could appropriately prosecute the alleged offender due to its interest in maintaining the peace within its borders, and the United States could bring charges under federal statutory law and customary international law in order to vindicate the interests of those under the protection of U.S. law.[14] The Court went on to identify “other reasons not to offload all prosecutions for crimes involving Americans abroad,” including a lack of confidence in the foreign state’s legal system and/or a belief that protecting U.S. nationals serves certain core national interests concerning “security, trade, commerce, or scholarship.”[15]”

Supreme Court Upholds Dual-Sovereignty Doctrine Allowing Parallel Criminal Prosecutions At Home and Abroad - Cleary Enforcement Watch

 

[gitana1]

There are a few links like this. I haven't read that a decision has been made, but I can't think of any reason that the request would be denied. Mack went to Bali specifically to murder her mother because she thought it would be easier to get away with it in Bali than committing murder in Chicago.

"Jamaruli Manihuruk, chief of the Bali regional office of the Ministry of Law and Human Rights, said Mack would fly from Jakarta to Chicago on Delta Air Lines.

He said his office has asked the central government to ban her from Indonesia for life.
...

Her attorney, Yulius Benyamin Seran, said earlier that Mack had asked for Stella, who is now 6, to remain with her foster family to avoid media attention in the US. However, Indonesian authorities refused.

“Minors must be accompanied by their mothers when their mothers are deported. There is no policy that allows a mother to leave her underage child here,” said Amrizal, chief of the Bali immigration office."
​

‘Suitcase Killer’ Heather Mack heads back to US on early release

Thanks for that. I hope the government there agrees!

 

[gitana1]

Isn't the legal term Guardian Ad Litem? Gitana, can you help us out here?

It depends on the state. Minor’s counsel is an attorney for a child. A guardian ad listen can also be an attorney for the child and make decisions about where the child lives, etc. I think that’s what’s going on now. But it appears to be a temporary appointment.

 

[gitana1]

Indonesia is strict regarding citizenship due to history. There were revolutions to remove everyone who was not native. A child born of foreign criminals doesn't strike me as a desirable citizen in Indonesia, and the country should not absorb children of criminals under any circumstances. They clearly don't want Mack in the country.

As for the child, she was allowed to remain in Bali only because her mother was in prison in Bali. She is a minor and should have no rights in Bali other than as a visitor. She might speak the local language, but English is her first language. Foster parents know that they are providing temporary care for a child.

Mack had complete control over the child in Bali. In the USA, Schaefer should have parental rights as well.

If Schaefer's mother has money for a legal dispute over custody, perhaps she should hire a lawyer for Schaefer so he can assert his parental rights. Schaefer is suffering malnutrition, so he doesn't even have money for food.

True. But maybe she’s more concerned with the grandchild over her son?

 

[otto]

Thanks for that. I hope the government there agrees!

I'm guessing that it's a routine process where convicted murderers, who are deported after serving the sentence, are banned for life from Indonesia. Mack won't be the first murderer who is banned from the country for life.

Deportation usually results in a permanent ban in other countries.

"With a Deportation Order, you are permanently barred from returning to Canada."
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Arrests, detentions and removals - Removal from Canada