Illegal/Underground Adoption Theories and leads

[CathyinTexas]

Should the pizza guy have his own thread so we can sleuth him?
Ordering two pizza is no indication Elizabeth had company. Maybe it was food for the road?

In a post earlier the babysitter was quoted as saying there were empty pizza boxes, plural.

 

[CathyinTexas]

Isn't selling your child to the highest buyer called human trafficking?
I am not getting the illegal adoption label personally.

It has been repeated that there wasn't enough money to prove she sold Gabriel. It has been suggested she might have been waiting for a payment a later time. Either way, the adoptive parents would have had to pay someone for the baby. So, couldn't the "agency" be charged with human trafficing? It also saddens me to hear that many young mothers decide to give the baby up for adoption later than at birth, according to the story about the hotel.

 

[impatientredhead]

Yes... and then imagine, on top of that bond, that (a) you might've paid $50,000 or more in cash that you'll never recover for the baby and (b) if you are caught, you could face charges and prison time, risking everything in your life, including other children you might have.

I can understand how it might be very hard to come forward. If an adoptive family has him somewhere, they are in a pickle.

Or depending on how insulated the agency keeps the adopters from the mothers they may be one step removed and have no clue they have a child someone is looking for. I know there are suggestions that she met with the adoptive parents but we really have no idea who she met.

Other than on this site, and therefore on NG I have not seen a word about this case. There are many people that are clueless this drama is going on.

 

[chell]

I think some kind of illegal placement occurred and I believe Elizabeth's laptop held many clues--that is, until she detstroyed it. EJ is smart and likely would have known to do this but even if she didn't, an illegal adoption/ trafficking outfit, which I feel certain it is, probably has a strict checklist and advisers telling her exactly what to do to avoid detection, hers and especially theirs. IMO TSs computer also held many clues. It is even possible in my opinion that the illegal adoption communications were handled only on a separate computer which was dedicated solely for this and could easily be moved, hidden or destroyed if it became necessary. By the time LE looked at the Ss or JMs computers anything that could link them could have been moved off-site and hidden. Remeber how anxious TS said she was to have them look at her communication devices? She said "i invite them" but she had a chance to get ready first and was well aware (for almost a month) that a raid, of sorts, would be coming.. IMO, they are not novices... to have an operation like this and get away with it for so long even when some of your operation locations are known (hotel, Six Flags) means you've been doing a great job at covering all your bases.

As for the money, I remember reading that EJ was frantic about having her grandfather come to the jail to pick up $300 and some jewelry (if it has alot of worth, maybe even that was part of the payment). I also know LE felt that the cash she had on her when she was found did not match what she is said to have sold. The money is hidden somewhere and all involved parties are being quiet to protect themselves only. I personally believe that EJ was to paid something to cover all of her expenses and probably was to receive a large payment once the deal was completed. If there's a way to follow the money (looking at JS and JM) it could at least be known if they've done this sort of stuff before.

Anyone know if the hostel is known as being a stopping place for girls who have participated in an underground adoption? If so, it might be possible to see if there's a history for payment out-of-the-country.

 

[TXHOPE]

Couldn't sleep last night because this part of the case is bothering me---If the adoptive couple took Gabriel which I now believe they did, how did they travel and where did they go????? If it's out of the country they would of had to get on a plane-airport??? There's surveilence everywhere, has LE looked for Gabriel through SA airport surveilence? They would probably have to go through Dallas or Houston if it was an international flight (more surveilence) or they could of drove to Mexico and flew out from there or they could be sitting in their home in SA or any other city in America. They had to travel though, there should be a sighting of them somewhere.

 

[kissdegirl]

I remember seeing that the FBI interviewed JM, right? Did any of them search the S's property in TN? I keep thinking about possible money EJ may have stashed, and that place makes perfect sense, especially since the S's say something like "she didn't even know where it was". Weren't there several days unaccounted for on her trip from TX to FL? So, she could have stopped and stashed...possible money and a computer?

I really doubt she was paid all that much anyway though, just enough to make her getaway. I have a feeling its the adoptive agency involved that made the cash, and that sent her to the Tornado bus station since LE would more likely check Greyhound.

Also, as far as establishing residency...did she not use a fake identity? If she had used the name Jones on her fake/real ID, she could easily have documents (bills, etc) in that name, given to her by the agency. Think about it, with common names like E, they could use the same utility bills with a last name they give to every girl that comes there with that name. Just a thought. These agencies sound like they are well oiled operations, so I don't doubt that have those "little" details covered.

 

[kissdegirl]

Couldn't sleep last night because this part of the case is bothering me---If the adoptive couple took Gabriel which I now believe they did, how did they travel and where did they go????? If it's out of the country they would of had to get on a plane-airport??? There's surveilence everywhere, has LE looked for Gabriel through SA airport surveilence? They would probably have to go through Dallas or Houston if it was an international flight (more surveilence) or they could of drove to Mexico and flew out from there or they could be sitting in their home in SA or any other city in America. They had to travel though, there should be a sighting of them somewhere.

Exactly! I have asked friends at Southwest Airlines to pass flyer's among their flight attendant/pilot friends. If they flew, I am SURE someone will remember seeing Gabe. They love babies, and when there is a stop en route, the pilots tend to come out and you can even set your baby in the cockpit with them for pictures. I think the airlines should send out an attachement to all their airport employees in an email with the current flyer.

 

[TXHOPE]

I wonder if Logan has visited the SA airport. His presence has made a huge difference in SA. I think people really stop and listen and look closely at the flyer when it's coming from a parent.

 

[~PrinceSSa~]

In a post earlier the babysitter was quoted as saying there were empty pizza boxes, plural.

Great find if we can have a link to that pls?
If she in fact did say that, WHY did LE NOT look into the fact that the pizza came from somewhere and someone who might recognize Elizabeth???

This is so frustrating!!! :banghead:

 

[Prof]

If this theory turns out to have any validity this "adoption" agent is clearly getting paid by the "adoptive" parents.
I have a hard time believing any mother that wants a better life for her child would make such callous comments about his dead body and paint a picture of him in the garbage. No matter how much she hates biodad that does not paint the picture of a mother willing to sit in jail to provide gains for her child.

If she sold him to some desperate couple it was motivated by ill-will and hatred, not loving maternal instincts.

moo

snipped respectfully

I agree, that EJ does not have "maternal instincts," and my statements never suggested maternal instincts in EJ. I know from what has been reported that EJ never wanted a child. As I stated, I believe she was motivated by her young, selfish and poor-me instincts combined with vengence against the man who did her wrong, "ruined her life." (a fairly dramatic statement)

IMO she thought Logan promised her something and did not deliver; therefore, I can see her saying anything to get back at him using the baby he wanted, not the baby she wanted. This is not a new story. Couples have used their children as weapons for ages.

Imagine Logan talking EJ into going through with the pregnancy and in EJ's mind this meant she too would be taken care of, but in her mind it did not work out that way. SHE had to take care of someone now, and SHE was not being taken care of like she thought.

Also, EJ accuses Logan of being a liar; this seems her main complaint, and also seems to be what brought this all on; IMO of course she will give him back lies topped with hurt, and whatever else to keep Gabriel away from Logan.

IMO she was proud of herself for doing the right thing-- in her statements that are recorded she brings up how "everyone commended her" when she first tried to give Gabriel away. She also evidences pride on her ms when she wrote something about her bubba starting to crawl (shown in recent news video on the Homegate and SA adoption agencies that got this thread bumped up).

Of course it is difficult for most of us to understand why she would say those things about Gabriel being in a dumpster. I would never say I did something so horrible, but I have been angry at points in my life and said horrible things that I regret, especially when I was in my early 20s and guided by emotions; EJ is in her early 20s with what seems to be an unstable emotional background.

I am not excusing EJ or anything she has done; I think they need to charge her with murder to get her to talk, but I have never believed that she did murder Gabriel.

I think TS pushed EJ off the ledge, to use TS' own language--IMO TS did not help when it came to dealing with biodads, as TS has generational experience with bio father issues. IMO TS does not have much respect for legalities or law enforcement, and I think her own criminal records, business records, and family court records are part proof of this.

There is no evidence of "selling" that I have seen-- yes, adoption agencies make money, and adoptive parents pay it, but it does not usually amount to much for the birth mother other than gas, food, lodging and perhaps some medical bills. EJ did have more money that LE thought she did; the agency who helped her gave her the usual money alloted for the usual things when it comes to the birth mother IMO.

Lastly, I am not sure she is willing to sit in jail forever, or even 20 years, but maybe a year or two. Her adoption advisor, TS, has someone close to her who got probation for a crime somewhat similar, a charge exactly similar to one of EJs charges in AZ. Since TS admits they talked and laughed about people they knew and their court records, it seems not too far-fetched to consider that a discussion about what might happen could take place. The Smiths continued that advisor role when EJ was arrested in FL, and we don't know what was said in the second "interview" TS had with EJ.

It just seems to me that most of the little we actually know in this case points logically to a prep for an adoption --closed, illegal, legal whatever.

 

[Gin]

If this theory turns out to have any validity this "adoption" agent is clearly getting paid by the "adoptive" parents. No one is coordinating so many of these transactions that there is a hotel they prefer to use, and an amusement park they recommend for meetings for altruistic reasons. That is a money making scheme all day long.

I have a hard time believing any mother that wants a better life for her child would make such callous comments about his dead body and paint a picture of him in the garbage. No matter how much she hates biodad that does not paint the picture of a mother willing to sit in jail to provide gains for her child.

If she sold him to some desperate couple it was motivated by ill-will and hatred, not loving maternal instincts.

moo

We all hope Gabriel is still with us, and his being placed in an illegal adoption would be the best hope for his immediate welfare. That said, I hope LE will leave no stone unturned in looking for him. Should this scenario be true, I hope everyone involved in anything the least bit illegal is prosecuted to the full extent of the law. Fines, prison, make them pay.
And is it OK if I add something else? Logan is a loving father. I've seen nothing to change my mind about that. He's not a "biodad" in any way to me.
Now, EJ???? You could convince me in a second that an accurate descriptor of her is "biomom".

 

[Prof]

Has the statement, that investigators have been sent to Mexico, been validated elsewhere?

And is the following statement (about the headquarters being a block away from the hotel) in the article true?

First question, not that I have seen at all, anywhere
Second question, there are two Homegates, and actually one of the sleuthers here on WS made the connection and turned the tip in, but it seems that EJ stayed at the Fiesta Park Homegate which makes it not a block away, and TS never had to go to the SA headquarters, and has only spoken to them on the phone -- per TS

 

[Prof]

There are some enlightening posts on the links part of the Gabriel FB page by a concerned adoption company out of SA -- they provide some insight into how other agencies may get around adoption laws IMO

One of the key factors it seems in this case is that EJ and Logan were never married

See comments under the poster who linked http://www.adoptionaccess.com/FAQ'S

Look for AA's post --this woman is very familiar with adoption shams in the state of TX IMO

http://www.facebook.com/group.php?v...hare_id=320994534327&comments=1#s320994534327

 

[Artessia]

I don't understand the connection of this information to my question you quoted?

ETA: Just to clarify, I was asking if it had been confirmed that the two adoption agencies were connected to the Homegate as a poster had stated.

I apologize... I am new here and must have read your post last and included the quote- I was simply trying to make a new post on behalf of the family.

Again, they want it to be clarified (as they are upset with media depicting that Logan has hired J. Jay Armes) that J. Jay Armes is investigating this case independently and seperate of Logan's family. They appreciate his help however, they did not retain his services or sign any contract with him.

The concern is that if all the info is sent to the P.I. and not to LE or the family- well, they would have no way of knowing the many leads and tips that are given.

They are asking that any and all tips be forwarded to LE and to the family and of course, it is ok to send to the P. I.

They are specifically requesting that all info sent to the P.I. also be sent to the family and LE as well....

BeanE- sorry again, I must have hit include quote.... I am still trying to get used to things around here...

 

[impatientredhead]

We all hope Gabriel is still with us, and his being placed in an illegal adoption would be the best hope for his immediate welfare. That said, I hope LE will leave no stone unturned in looking for him. Should this scenario be true, I hope everyone involved in anything the least bit illegal is prosecuted to the full extent of the law. Fines, prison, make them pay.
And is it OK if I add something else? Logan is a loving father. I've seen nothing to change my mind about that. He's not a "biodad" in any way to me.
Now, EJ???? You could convince me in a second that an accurate descriptor of her is "biomom".

I didn't mean anything by biodad or biomom. Posting on here so frequently there are usually enough players, parents, exes, boyfriends and girlfriends, extended family, and maybe "adoptive" parents... I was just specifying who I was referring to. Never intended it to imply anything lesser about Logan. (I use sperm and egg donors when making implications about crappy parents).

My real point with my original post was that her verbage makes me very uncomfortable when laid against a backdrop of "adopting" him out so he has a better life. That just doesn't feel real to me. Selling him for her own benefit, having no attachment to him, and saying those hateful things, that I can wrap my mind around.

And it is just a personal pet peeve when I keep seeing this being referred to as adoption. I think that degrades the acts of both the woman giving up her child and the complete strangers opening up their homes and hearts to a child that is not theirs biologically.

To me this scenario is not adoption, it is trafficking a child, selling them to someone who is willing to pay whatever price is being asked. That is not an adoption, illegal or otherwise in my not so humble opinion:angel:

 

[BeanE]

I didn't mean anything by biodad or biomom. Posting on here so frequently there are usually enough players, parents, exes, boyfriends and girlfriends, extended family, and maybe "adoptive" parents... I was just specifying who I was referring to. Never intended it to imply anything lesser about Logan. (I use sperm and egg donors when making implications about crappy parents).

My real point with my original post was that her verbage makes me very uncomfortable when laid against a backdrop of "adopting" him out so he has a better life. That just doesn't feel real to me. Selling him for her own benefit, having no attachment to him, and saying those hateful things, that I can wrap my mind around.

And it is just a personal pet peeve when I keep seeing this being referred to as adoption. I think that degrades the acts of both the woman giving up her child and the complete strangers opening up their homes and hearts to a child that is not theirs biologically.

To me this scenario is not adoption, it is trafficking a child, selling them to someone who is willing to pay whatever price is being asked. That is not an adoption, illegal or otherwise in my not so humble opinion:angel:

BBM. Agreed. Whereas Elizabeth's grandfather said Elizabeth told him one day back in early December that she wanted Gabe to have a better life than she'd had, the transcript of her jail interview with the reporter makes it clear that she did not have Gabe's safety, health, happiness, life, well-being, or best interests anywhere on her radar.

 

[JBean]

Please do not post on behalf of anyone involved or not involved in a case without first clearing your relationships with Tricia Griffith.
tgrif@xmission.com

Thank you.

as always where this post lands on the thread is not necessarily a reflection of nearby posts

 

[Prof]

ASA in SA (agency named at the start of this thread) is run by an adoption attorney, so my first reaction is that it would be unlikely that the agency would get involved in anything known to be illegal, but IDK

I found that ASA used to be run by another person -- here's a long article on him and the director now http://www.crji.org/news.php?id=58&l=2

I found this one more recent blog complaining about this agency http://babyselling.com/bryn/2008/01...e-wake-up-if-it-could-happen-to-your-kid-too/

 

[DaneBramage]

It appears to me that with the recent change in TX law re: paternal rights, and what is being uncovered in SA, that this adoption biz in TX goes quite deep. I wonder if there is a possibility where RICO may apply?

 

[chell]

Just wondering if anyone knows and if it doesn't go here, my apologies... If LE made contact with EJ on Dec 27 telling her to bring Gabriel in to verify his safety, how exactly did they make that contact? Her cell phone? Some other way? I thought she left her cell phone in TX so I'm assuming contact was made before she got on the bus but, if not, how did all that play out? If they knew where she was, why didn't they grab her then? If contact was via a cell phone, then didn't that at least narrow down a region?

Just working it out in my head , since there are some missing days in her travel schedule between SA and Miami, is it possible she bought a ticket and boarded a bus headed east then got off to travel a different direction and ultimately boarded a separate bus to finally end up eastas the original ticket suggested? If so, the cell phone could help determine her itinerary.